What travel is currently allowed by the legislation?

[yorkie]

I could also claim the mental health status and could produce prescription medication to prove it, but again the idea of misusing a privilege sits uncomfortably.

To be clear, you are allowed to make any journey as allowed for in the legislation. If anyone wishes to make a journey for any allowed reason there is no need to bring evidence; mental well-being applies to everyone, not just people who can produce evidence of a prescription. It is up to each individual to decide, not for anyone else to judge.

 

[Bikeman78]

The reason why the Government relaxed restrictions a couple of weeks ago was for the population's well-being. That included unlimited travel for leisure purposes. OK people were told not to use trains but the point still stands in principle. And if you social distance when using the train then there's no risk.

Saying that people who do are likely to cause a second spike are part of the self-righteousness that has been prevalent throughout this crisis.

Even pre virus, the front unit of any off peak weekday train out of Liverpool Street was pretty much empty. The Stansted Express could get a bit cosy at any time but obviously that won't be the case now.

 

[cornishjohn]

For certain things you can go a few days or even weeks without having to make a journey, but there will come a point where the journey becomes essential to maintain mental health or to avoid damaging existing relationships. For example a couple who live apart and neither have access to car may come to the conclusion that to maintain the relationship it is essential to see each other and therefore make a train journey.

The regulations have nothing to say about "essential" travel. The word "essential" occurs 4 times, relating to "essential upkeep" of a household, "essential voluntary services" (twice) and a gathering that is "essential" for work purposes. Any two persons from separate households may (now) visit a "public open space" to "promote their ... emotional wellbeing".

As an aside, the regulations do not define a key worker either. The word "key" does not occur at all. There is a broad list of businesses that must remain closed (e.g. restaurants, cinemas), a further list of businesses that may open under severe restrictions, and a list of businesses permitted to remain open (e.g. supermarkets, banks, garages)

The guidance has a lot more say, but is nevertheless still only guidance - if you want to travel under a ground allowed by the regulations, it is clearly allowed!

Are the TOC's generally required to convey any passenger that presents themselves (provided they are not drunk, smoking etc under the conditions of carriage), or can they forbid travel on their (the TOC's) own reasoning?

 

[yorkie]

Are the TOC's generally required to convey any passenger that presents themselves (provided they are not drunk, smoking etc under the conditions of carriage), or can they forbid travel on their (the TOC's) own reasoning?

Train companies cannot restrict freedom of movement contrary to relevant legislation.

@Ianigsy @philosopher and anyone else who missed it, the legislation can be found at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6 and I have quoted it at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...llowed-by-the-legislation.204411/post-4595814

I trust that clears up any confusion

 

[Enthusiast]

Train companies cannot restrict freedom of movement contrary to relevant legislation.

Indeed they can't. And in the latest (May13th) version of the Regulations, among the cited "reasonable excuses" for leaving your home is this:


to visit a public open space for the purposes of open-air recreation to promote their physical or mental health or emotional wellbeing—
(i)alone,
(ii)with one or more members of their household, or
(iii)with one member of another household;]

 

[startingaparty]

I live in my own. I haven't properly interacted with anyone for over two months. I want to see my friend who lives a 45 minute train journey away for a socially distanced meeting in a park near her house. I do not drive and it is too far to walk and the bus would involve two changes. Is this allowed under the guidelines?

 

[yorkie]

I live in my own. I haven't properly interacted with anyone for over two months. I want to see my friend who lives a 45 minute train journey away for a socially distanced meeting in a park near her house. I do not drive and it is too far to walk and the bus would involve two changes. Is this allowed under the guidelines?

Yes this is allowed by the legislation.

You can find the legislation at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6 and I have quoted it at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...llowed-by-the-legislation.204411/post-4595814

 

[PupCuff]

We're focusing here on what the Coronavirus legislation says and I agree that assessment is accurate; however Railway Byelaw 13(2) does state that no person shall enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a notice indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified category of person only, except where he belongs to that specified category. If a notice were to state that a station or train was for Key Workers only then it would be difficult to see how there wouldn't be a legal backing to prevent someone who is not a Key Worker from using the facility or service. (Which would be, of course, as I challenged earlier, contrary to government advice)

 

[yorkie]

We're focusing here on what the Coronavirus legislation says and I agree that assessment is accurate; however Railway Byelaw 13(2) does state that no person shall enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a notice indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified category of person only, except where he belongs to that specified category. If a notice were to state that a station or train was for Key Workers only then it would be difficult to see how there wouldn't be a legal backing to prevent someone who is not a Key Worker from using the facility or service. (Which would be, of course, as I challenged earlier, contrary to government advice)

Firstly, there is nothing in legislation that states only key workers are allowed to use public transport (and, incidentally, key workers are no different from anyone else in being asked to travel by car if they can; I am a key worker myself and I have exactly the same rights than anyone else, whether they are a key worker or not!)

Secondly, there is nothing that allows train companies to discriminate in this manner; for the avoidance of doubt any enforcement of any such sign would be unlawful; the existence of an unlawful sign does not make that sign legally binding in any shape or form. The Government have specifically stated the reasons in which travel is allowed and train companies are not permitted to invent their own rules; they cannot go against the wishes of the DfT or the terms of their franchise agreements, which includes compliance with the Ticketing Settlement Agreement (TSA). As evidence of the Government's intentions, when TfL were bailed out, a condition of the bailout was that misleading 'key worker only' signs had to be removed by TfL. If anyone has knowledge of misleading 'key worker only' signs remaining at any locations, feel free to present them so that the train companies can be instructed to remove them. The signs are unlawful and contrary to DfT requirements. Train companies can be forced to remove them.

Thirdly, Byelaw 13(2) is clearly intended to enable train companies to enforce appropriate and lawful restrictions such as staff only areas, and similarly restricted areas. It is not to be misused in the manner you describe, to restrict freedom of movement, and deny legitimate travel, and cannot be used to overrule other relevant legislation.

Edit: To clarify, the post above regarding Byelaw 13 is a purely hypothetical question and is not the legal position in any shape or form and has the potential to cause confusion to people who visit this thread to enquire about what the legal position actually is; therefore further discussion on the hypothetical Byelaw 13 matter can be made in the following dedicated thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...cific-groups-of-people-e-g-keyworkers.204858/

 

[Mugby]

Surely some modified guidance will be required for when many more shops are allowed to open on 1 June, followed by all non-essential shops on 15 June.

It would be absurd to continue with the 'essential travel only' or 'we'd rather you didn't travel' or 'you may be taking a seat which is needed by a key worker' stuff which has been the norm hitherto. The (pretty urgent) need to get the economy moving again will quickly be negated if the messages continue to deter people from travelling.

I saw the spokesperson for EMR on our local news last week commenting about people using coastal services (Skegness, Cleethorpes) claiming 'You may be occupying a seat which is required by a key worker' The clear implication was that every seat on every train at every hour of the day is required for key workers - which, of course, is arrant nonsense.

 

[Crossover]

One thing I noticed earlier was from, as I recall, ScotRail, about returning to travel. One of the points they may make is about not boarding if you think it’s unsafe. I can’t help but wonder (thinking a bit about the forum!) whether this would form an acceptable form of claim on Delay Repay?

(For clarity, from my point it is theoretical, I don’t live in Scotland and generally haven’t travelled on any public transport since January and may not do for some time yet)

 

[yorkie]

One thing I noticed earlier was from, as I recall, ScotRail, about returning to travel. One of the points they may make is about not boarding if you think it’s unsafe. I can’t help but wonder (thinking a bit about the forum!) whether this would form an acceptable form of claim on Delay Repay?

(For clarity, from my point it is theoretical, I don’t live in Scotland and generally haven’t travelled on any public transport since January and may not do for some time yet)

See:

• https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/delay-repay-crowd-control-limited-capacity.204511
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hemes-be-modified-suspended-at-present.204537

 

[leightonbd]

Email received this morning from Scotrail (image showing revised guidance issued today). Key words ‘Essential journeys only’ jumped out at me (whatever essential may mean).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Scotland of course still has lockdown, with only essential travel permitted by car, too.

 

[yorkie]

Email received this morning from Scotrail:

Essential journeys only (whatever essential may mean).

In addition to what @Bletchleyite says above about Scotland being different to England, to clear up any confusion you may wish to read previous posts in this thread, including:

The term "essential" is a misnomer; what matters is what is permitted by the legislation...

 

[theironroad]

It's quite funny that people are debating the minuatue of the regulations and guidance and possibly putting people off making a trip that would be of great benefit to themselves when out in the real railway world people are jumping on trains to the beach, or to outdoor space with a bike and basically carrying on as normal. Yes, most trains are a lot quieter but 'the only key workers/essential travel' message bit the dust a while back.

 

[yorksrob]

I saw the spokesperson for EMR on our local news last week commenting about people using coastal services (Skegness, Cleethorpes) claiming 'You may be occupying a seat which is required by a key worker' The clear implication was that every seat on every train at every hour of the day is required for key workers - which, of course, is arrant nonsense.

The public know very well that if this mystical army of key workers hasn't been on the train in the last two months, it's not suddenly going to turn up now.

The Government and industry has a short window of opportunity in which to work with its passengers to accommodate them in a cooperative manner. If it continues to treat them like mugs, passengers will make their own decisions.

 

[Mugby]

Email received this morning from Scotrail:

Essential journeys only (whatever essential may mean).

View attachment 78549

Another example of meaningless information: 'Most Seats need to be Empty'. How many exactly, and how will it be policed?

It's not acceptable to have to wait until a train arrives to find out how such a thing is being administered.

 

[sjpowermac]

It's quite funny that people are debating the minuatue of the regulations and guidance and possibly putting people off making a trip that would be of great benefit to themselves when out in the real railway world people are jumping on trains to the beach, or to outdoor space with a bike and basically carrying on as normal. Yes, most trains are a lot quieter but 'the only key workers/essential travel' message bit the dust a while back.

I think that depends on where you are in the country. The trains I’ve observed to/from Scarborough have been very quite, numbers never above single figures on five coach trains. A similar story with LNER trains too.

You make a good point though that a journey might well be of great benefit to someone. Personally, I’m content not to travel right now, but others will be in different positions and I wouldn’t seek to discourage them.

To be fair, Network Rail seem to have softened the message, no mention of ‘Key Workers’ here:

“If there is no other way to travel, passengers will find social distancing measures in place at stations we own and directly manage.”

Station teams keep passengers moving safely during covid-19 - Network Rail

Our station teams are working hard to help keep passengers safe if they have to travel by rail.

www.networkrail.co.uk

 

[yorkie]

This thread is to discuss what is permitted by the legislation.

The current legislation has been linked to above, and quoted, so the situation should be clear.

If anyone wishes to make any suggestions of their own please use an alternative thread (if there isn't an existing one already, feel free to create a new one, where appropriate)

I have moved some posts regarding compulsory reservations to the existing thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-reservation-compulsory-from-18-may.204400/

 

[Class 33]

So those of us with our own transport are now allowed to drive/ride anywhere in the country. But those of us without our own transport, officially we're still not allowed to use public transport unless we are commuting to and from work. I can understand the reasons behind this. But over the coming months and as the number of new Coronavirus cases and deaths are really coming down significantly now, public transport will surely have to be permitted for leisure/non-essential travel again. Not sure how exactly that is going to be implemented. From what I can see, the next easing of the lockdown on 1st June there is no mention yet about the easing of rules in using public transport. Hoping that surely in the easing of lockdown on 1st July, these rules will be significantly eased and we can officially enjoy leisure travel on trains and coaches again.

 

[yorkie]

So those of us with our own transport are now allowed to drive/ride anywhere in the country.

Anyone is allowed to travel in accordance with the legislation regardless of whether or not you have your own transport.

The legislation can be found at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6 and has been quoted above (edit: I've also quoted it again at the bottom of this post).

But those of us without our own transport, officially we're still not allowed to use public transport unless we are commuting to and from work.

This is incorrect; if you read the legislation it will become clear that there are many reasons why travel is allowed.

I can understand the reasons behind this. But over the coming months and as the number of new Coronavirus cases and deaths are really coming down significantly now, public transport will surely have to be permitted for leisure/non-essential travel again.

There is no restriction on public transport; the restrictions, as defined in the legislation, apply to all forms of transport.

Not sure how exactly that is going to be implemented. From what I can see, the next easing of the lockdown on 1st June there is no mention yet about the easing of rules in using public transport.

There is no restriction of the use of public transport. That's a myth.

Hoping that surely in the easing of lockdown on 1st July, these rules will be significantly eased and we can officially enjoy leisure travel on trains and coaches again.

You can use public transport in line with the legislation.

If your journey is not allowed by legislation it cannot be made by any mode, including by car.

I have quoted the legislation at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...llowed-by-the-legislation.204411/post-4595814 but clearly a lot of people missed that, so here it is again:

6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave [F1or be outside of] the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(a)to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, F2... including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;

[F3(aa)to obtain money from or deposit money with any business listed in paragraphs 33 or 34 of Schedule 2;]

[F4(ab)to collect goods which have been ordered from a business in any way permitted under regulation 5(1)(a);]

[F5(b)to take exercise—

(i)alone,

(ii)with one or more members of their household, or

(iii)with one member of another household;]

[F6(ba)to visit a public open space for the purposes of open-air recreation to promote their physical or mental health or emotional wellbeing—

(i)alone,

(ii)with one or more members of their household, or

(iii)with one member of another household;]

(c)to seek medical assistance, including to access any of the services referred to in paragraph 37 or 38 of Schedule 2;

(d)to provide care or assistance, including relevant personal care within the meaning of paragraph 7(3B) of Schedule 4 to the Safeguarding of Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 F7, to a vulnerable person, or to provide emergency assistance;

(e)to donate blood;

(f)to F8... work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;

(g)to attend a funeral of—

(i)a member of the person's household,

(ii)a close family member, or

(iii)if no-one within sub-paragraphs (i) or (ii) are attending, a friend;

[F9(ga)to visit a burial ground or garden of remembrance, to pay respects to a member of the person’s household, a family member or friend;]

(h)to fulfil a legal obligation, including attending court or satisfying bail conditions, or to participate in legal proceedings;

(i)to access critical public services, including—

(i)childcare or educational facilities (where these are still available to a child in relation to whom that person is the parent, or has parental responsibility for, or care of the child);

(ii)social services;

(iii)services provided by the [F10Department for Work] and Pensions;

(iv)services provided to victims (such as victims of crime);

(j)in relation to children who do not live in the same household as their parents, or one of their parents, to continue existing arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and children, and for the purposes of this paragraph, “parent” includes a person who is not a parent of the child, but who has parental responsibility for, or who has care of, the child;

(k)in the case of a minister of religion or worship leader, to go to their place of worship;

[F11(l)to undertake any of the following activities in connection with the purchase, sale, letting or rental of a residential property—

(i)visiting estate or letting agents, developer sales offices or show homes;

(ii)viewing residential properties to look for a property to buy or rent;

(iii)preparing a residential property to move in;

(iv)moving home;

(v)visiting a residential property to undertake any activities required for the rental or sale of that property;]

(m)to avoid injury or illness or to escape a risk of harm.

[F12(n)to use a waste or recycling centre.]

(3) For the purposes of paragraph (1), the place where a person is living includes the premises where they live together with any garden, yard, passage, stair, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises.

(4) Paragraph (1) does not apply to any person who is homeless.

[F13(5) For the purposes of paragraph (2)(ba), “public open space” includes—

(a)land laid out as a public garden or used for the purpose of recreation by members of the public;

(b)land which is “open country” as defined in section 59(2) of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949, as read with section 16 of the Countryside Act 1968;

(c)land which is “access land” for the purposes of Part 1 of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 (see section 1(1) of that Act).]

I trust this clarifies the position.

 

[Class 33]

OK thanks for that info. That said though, I have seen on the news instances of British Transport Police at train stations stopping people travelling for non-essential reasons. Though that was before the easing of lockdown a couple of weeks ago.

Myself am not really planning on travelling by train anywhere for a couple of weeks yet. Nor by coach, can't do anyway as no coach services in England are even running. But hoping to get out on a bus out of the city and into the country for a few hours or so out. So good to know that this will be permitted, even though public transport operators seem to be saying otherwise.

 

[yorkie]

OK thanks for that info. That said though, I have seen on the news instances of British Transport Police at train stations stopping people travelling for non-essential reasons. Though that was before the easing of lockdown a couple of weeks ago.

The word "essential" is a bit of a misnomer; what matters is what is permitted by the legislation.

Until the easing of a couple of weeks ago, the legislation up until that point was rather more restrictive than it is now.

But hoping to get out on a bus out of the city and into the country for a few hours or so out. So good to know that this will be permitted, even though public transport operators seem to be saying otherwise.

Yes as quoted above; a journey to visit a public open space for the purpose of open-air recreation to promote your physical or mental wellbeing is allowed.

I don't think any train companies are actually denying that this is allowed.

 

[LowLevel]

I've not actually come across any railway companies attempting to prevent anyone from travelling for what it's worth. The message helps to discourage the casual 'shall we just pop for a train ride with the kids' which will quickly eat up the available capacity whereas anyone who comes to a reasoned decision that their journey is necessary and purchases a ticket to travel is unlikely to come across any resistance from anyone.

The closest thing I've seen is in case of a spike in travel to Skegness over the bank holiday weekend EMR used their prerogative that they would only allow their trains to load up to a certain capacity of their choosing and any excess passengers would be forced to wait in a queue until the next service, possibly several hours away.

As it happens the measures weren't needed and everything went swimmingly.

As I've said previously, as long as numbers aren't sufficient to cause issues for the staff themselves in social distancing in terms of being able to avoid close contact with the passengers (they have as much right to have a clear work area as the passenger does to choose to travel) then it is unlikely any problems will be experienced.

We are far more bothered about entrapping the county lines scum while it's quiet than interrogating people truth be told.

 

[yorkie]

We are far more bothered about entrapping the county lines scum while it's quiet than interrogating people truth be told.

Yes, this sort won't have a clue what to say if questioned (they are not the sort of characters who are going to know or care what the legislation says!) and it's good that they stand out more at the current time, so can more easily be dealt with.

Law abiding people should have nothing to worry about; anyone who is travelling for an allowed reason just needs to state that reason, in the unlikely event of being asked, and it should (and almost certainly will) be accepted at face value.

 

[Butts]

Scotland of course still has lockdown, with only essential travel permitted by car, too.

Reading this thread I think some people seem to have been residing in a hermetically sealed physical and psychological bubble for the last couple of months. Life still exists in the outside world and people are going about their business the best they can.

I have been travelling between Edinburgh and Falkirk by Train or Car to get to work for the last eight weeks. The Trains are empty with half a dozen people on a six carriage service. The roads are also empty although getting busier the last couple of weeks.

Early on in the Lockdown I had to Hire a car to drive down to The West Midlands to collect my Daughter and her friend and bring them back up to St Andrews University - forget Cummings that was well over 600 Miles. No Police Checks just clear Roads. She had gone done there because her Grandad was ill and eventually succumbed to Covid 19. My ex-wife was in with him when he Died - they still let one person in then (early days). Yes we were all in one House and my Son visited as well. God knows how many "rules" that broke. (if any).

It took a while to arrange a funeral but in Mid-April I collected my Daughter from her house in St Andrews and drove back to The Midlands for the Cremation - only 10 people allowed to attend with social distancing not really enforced strictly - understandably. No wake was permitted but we had a drink at the ex-Mother in Laws afterwards. Once again I stayed with ex wife and daughter in same house. The next day we drove back up to St Andrews and then I returned to Falkirk. Clear Roads no Police Checks.

I am pleased to report that everyone from the five households involved if fine and healthy with no sign of disease a month later.

Whilst I have been working in Edinburgh no one has ever asked to see my Key Worker "Letter" on the train or anywhere else.

I think furloughed individuals have had to much time on their hands and begin to fantasise what is really happening "outside" in the big wide world. Life goes on !!

 

[geoffk]

Apologies if this has been covered in another thread already...

The question, that as enthusiasts, we all want to ask, when do we feel it will be acceptable to undertake a leisure trip by train again?

I ask as someone that doesn't drive so has been deprived of any trip to the beach of the countryside that many others have done since the lockdown was eased earlier this month, I'm planning a trip up to Matlock towards the end of June as I feed if we're not back to something resembling normality by then, there will be no point in returning to normality as we won't have an economy left but that's for another thead.

Thoughts?

We'll have to hope the railway survives in its present form as I'm sure HM Treasury, never keen supporting on railways, will be be eyeing up possible savings and diverting money into roads.

 

[yorkie]

@Butts I really have no idea how much of that was permitted and how much wasn't (if any); it may depend on the dates, and when the legislation changed, and whether you were based in England or Scotland.

But this thread is asking if the legislation restricts public transport specifically, and we can clearly state there are not any such restrictions, and the detail of your journey goes well beyond that question!

Whilst I have been working in Edinburgh no one has ever asked to see my Key Worker "Letter" on the train or anywhere else.

The rules in Scotland are different to England, but I am not aware of any requirements to carry letters and/or ID in Scotland.

We'll have to hope the railway survives in its present form as I'm sure HM Treasury, never keen supporting on railways, will be be eyeing up possible savings and diverting money into roads.

Maybe, but there are other threads to discuss this.

 

[Starmill]

In England, Regulation 6, the one forbidding you to go out of your house, has almost no meaning any longer. It has almost no effect. It's effectively impossible to enforce.

I'm not sure there are any relevant Regulations relating to trains or other public transport. Operators may make requests and recommendations about who does what, I would advise people to follow those. But those aren't law.

Police are, and always were, able only to enforce law. They cannot and do not do enforcement of official guidelines.

This having been established, you can them move on to what you would do if you were given instructions by a police officer, or threatened with arrest if you didn't do as they say, where your view was that them giving you those instructions was unlawful. That's actually not as unusual as it should be I think. Unfortunately, how you would deal with that is actually a very, very difficult question and probably merits discussion of its own.