Off lease trains that still have some life left in them

[HamworthyGoods]

It'd be interesting to see whether the class 222s could replace the class 159s with SWR on the Exeters. And the rest reformed for XC along with the AWC 221s

waterloo to Exeter is lots of start/stop beyond Salisbury whereas the 222s are designed for higher speed running.

They’d also be a massive loss in seating capacity replacing a 9 car 159 with a 9 car 222 - the West of England DMUs are probably the highest seating capacity DMUs on the National Network with possibly only the Uckfield 10 cars beating it. Certainly pre COVID replacing 159s with 222s would see a lot of people no longer being able to get a seat!

 

[D365]

365s for certain. Perfectly good and reliable units, with the majority sitting dormant down at Crewe.

19 units in storage is a slim minority.

 

[pompeyfan]

I strongly believe the SWR diesel fleet will be replaced with new build in the next franchise, they need something that can use the 3rd rail (providing The juice can provide for the extra 4 electric services an hour), but also offers flexibility in formation/portion working etc etc.

If the 222s do end up going to XC then there’s no reason they can be used as 7 or even 9 car fixed units and run on their own fixed diagrams in the same way that HSTs aren’t really an operational issue.

379s to GTRGN which release 387s onto Uckfield (depending on if RSSB approve the infill of 3rd rail).

458s would in theory be a decent option for coastway services if the ASDO could be adapted but why would Southern get rid of their 313s when they paid £1 for the units and don’t require tanking etc etc.

350/2s in hindsight would have made more sense to run as a dedicated sub fleet on the Portsmouth Direct line had they been available during the SWR franchise tender.

 

[The Ham]

waterloo to Exeter is lots of start/stop beyond Salisbury whereas the 222s are designed for higher speed running.

They’d also be a massive loss in seating capacity replacing a 9 car 159 with a 9 car 222 - the West of England DMUs are probably the highest seating capacity DMUs on the National Network with possibly only the Uckfield 10 cars beating it. Certainly pre COVID replacing 159s with 222s would see a lot of people no longer being able to get a seat!

A 10 coach 22x (single unit) could be formed with comparable seating capacity as a 3*3 class 159.

Fit one both end coaches as first class gives you 52 first class seats, then 8 standard class coaches provide 528 seats, however if you remove one of each luggage racks (gaining 2 seats per coach) you could increase this to 544, giving a total of 580 to 596 seats.

This compares with 72 first class seats and 516 standard class seats, a total of 589 seats.

 

[pompeyfan]

A 10 coach 22x (single unit) could be formed with comparable seating capacity as a 3*3 class 159.

Fit one both end coaches as first class gives you 52 first class seats, then 8 standard class coaches provide 528 seats, however if you remove one of each luggage racks (gaining 2 seats per coach) you could increase this to 544, giving a total of 580 to 596 seats.

This compares with 72 first class seats and 516 standard class seats, a total of 589 seats.

but the west of England services rely heavily on portion working, with a fixed 10 coach unit you can’t achieve that and you can’t match supply with demand. With 2 units formed of 5 coaches you’d still lose a lot of space to accommodate for the crash regs as you’d have 4 lots of dead space. Hence why a replacement similar to the current 159s would work, or perhaps 5 car units with end gangways, although you’d still need something separate to work Romsey services in whatever incarnation they are in 7 years time.

 

[Inthewest]

Both 221's and 222's could go to XC in fact i would say the 222's could be reformed into 5-car and 4-car formations and the connectors to be changed so they can work with the 221s and 220's.

Multiple working is never a good thing.
If anything, they'll reform the whole fleet into longer trains and bin the end cars.

Whether they'll look at getting rid of the HSTs to Scotrail, I don't know.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

A 10 coach 22x (single unit) could be formed with comparable seating capacity as a 3*3 class 159.

Fit one both end coaches as first class gives you 52 first class seats, then 8 standard class coaches provide 528 seats, however if you remove one of each luggage racks (gaining 2 seats per coach) you could increase this to 544, giving a total of 580 to 596 seats.

This compares with 72 first class seats and 516 standard class seats, a total of 589 seats.

That’s a massive drop in first class provision for a route that is first class heavy.

You also can’t take all 10 cars to Exeter, Honiton Crossing Loop signalling is designed for 9x159 and can’t accommodate longer (also causes problems with diverted IETs).

it also injects massive costs dragging a much bigger train than necessary to Exeter. Logic for any replacement would probably be 5x23m vehicles with 10 Waterloo to Salisbury and 5 forward to Exeter although that does require some works at Salisbury as 10x23m can only use platform 4, fine for the current odd 10 car service but not for regular working.

 

[Parallel]

Multiple working is never a good thing.
If anything, they'll reform the whole fleet into longer trains and bin the end cars.

I don’t think SWR will use 222s for their Salisbury services. They also have services that split with part of the train going to Bristol. As this service is the only usable direct service to/from London for the towns of Warminster, Trowbridge and Bradford-on-Avon (and Keynsham but that’s on the GWML), I think it would be a political nightmare axing it. In fact, SWR actually introduced a fourth direct service since they’ve operated the franchise. Then you’ve got the SWR services to Yeovil Pen Mill via Frome and Sherborne, as well as the Romsey trains. Smaller units coupled with corridor connections works well on these services currently. I wonder if they will go for a new build that can run bi mode (diesel and third rail).

 

[Neptune]

I think thread is suddenly suffering from the usual ‘looking for a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist’.

The 158/159’s used on WoE services are fine with multiple working allowing appropriate portion working. The 222’s are nowhere near as flexible as the 158/159 fleet.

Why look to cause problems by suggesting more expensive and totally inappropriate 222’s for these services. It has been said many times the the only sensible solution for the 222’s (along with the AWC 221’s) is XC to allow doubling of services. I also don’t understand this scrapping of driving vehicles to form longer sets. Again why? This would reduce capacity and flexibility of XC services.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think thread is suddenly suffering from the usual ‘looking for a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist’.

The 158/159’s used on WoE services are fine with multiple working allowing appropriate portion working. The 222’s are nowhere near as flexible as the 158/159 fleet.

Why look to cause problems by suggesting more expensive and totally inappropriate 222’s for these services. It has been said many times the the only sensible solution for the 222’s (along with the AWC 221’s) is XC to allow doubling of services. I also don’t understand this scrapping of driving vehicles to form longer sets. Again why? This would reduce capacity and flexibility of XC services.

by 2025 the XC HSTs will be approaching 50 years old so the 222s also gives the opportunity to replace these

 

[43096]

I think thread is suddenly suffering from the usual ‘looking for a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist’.

The 158/159’s used on WoE services are fine with multiple working allowing appropriate portion working. The 222’s are nowhere near as flexible as the 158/159 fleet.

Why look to cause problems by suggesting more expensive and totally inappropriate 222’s for these services. It has been said many times the the only sensible solution for the 222’s (along with the AWC 221’s) is XC to allow doubling of services. I also don’t understand this scrapping of driving vehicles to form longer sets. Again why? This would reduce capacity and flexibility of XC services.

Spot on! I don't know why these crayonista fantasy uses for 22x units on Waterloo-Exeter keep cropping up as they get shot down in flames for the same reason every time.

 

[Neptune]

by 2025 the XC HSTs will be approaching 50 years old so the 222s also gives the opportunity to replace these

I’ve said it on other threads. The 6x 7 car 222’s could replace the 5x 2+7HST’s. Diagrammed properly they would help release even more Voyagers for doubling up.

 

[LUYMun]

TfL Rail 360s used on Paddington- Heathrow local services

Maybe also the Greater Anglia 360s? If you convert them with gangway ends, TOCs might be interested in them.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Maybe also the Greater Anglia 360s? If you convert them with gangway ends, TOCs might be interested in them.

They (the GA 360s) are already earmarked for St Pancras to Corby services.

 

[Domh245]

Maybe also the Greater Anglia 360s? If you convert them with gangway ends, TOCs might be interested in them.

They're going to EMR to operate St Pancras - Corby...

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe also the Greater Anglia 360s? If you convert them with gangway ends, TOCs might be interested in them.

GA 360s are all known to be going to EMR for Corby. Which is probably why no one mentioned them ...

 

[Taunton]

I made this thread after finding that the 20-year-old Class 458 units are going to leave the SWR franchise in favour of Class 701's.

20 years old, but for how many years have they actually been used? Especially since they were completely reconstructed from the frame upwards?

 

[Fincra5]

I strongly believe the SWR diesel fleet will be replaced with new build in the next franchise, they need something that can use the 3rd rail (providing The juice can provide for the extra 4 electric services an hour), but also offers flexibility in formation/portion working etc etc.

If the 222s do end up going to XC then there’s no reason they can be used as 7 or even 9 car fixed units and run on their own fixed diagrams in the same way that HSTs aren’t really an operational issue.

379s to GTRGN which release 387s onto Uckfield (depending on if RSSB approve the infill of 3rd rail).

458s would in theory be a decent option for coastway services if the ASDO could be adapted but why would Southern get rid of their 313s when they paid £1 for the units and don’t require tanking etc etc.

350/2s in hindsight would have made more sense to run as a dedicated sub fleet on the Portsmouth Direct line had they been available during the SWR franchise tender.

I agree, 379s go for a refit (1st Class 2+2 or all STD and the excess luggage racks) then onto GN, Kicking down the 387s to SN (29 Units replacing 20 171s - 10 Car 171 = 12 Car 387). For use on Uckfield and Ashford; providing the (rightly) get 3rd Rail to fill the Gaps! Gives SN an all electric fleet.

It also keeps the GN commuters happy; who have done nothing but whinge since the 387s kicked out some 365s!

Coastway would be good for 458s, or 455s from SWR. 458s would probably be reverted to 4 cars - due to the short platforms. Plus 5 Car units are a bit of a logistical nightmare for Lovers Walk depot - which is set up for 4 Car units. The 313's created fairly waisted space being 3 Cars.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think the 185s released by TPE have been mentioned.
The 175/180 Coradia fleets also don't seem to have a home after the next lot of orders/cascades happen.

We're also assuming that the railway will get back to its former service level and usage - it might not.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I don't think the 185s released by TPE have been mentioned.
The 175/180 Coradia fleets also don't seem to have a home after the next lot of orders/cascades happen.

We're also assuming that the railway will get back to its former service level and usage - it might not.

Are any 185s actually going to end up being released by TPE if the transfer of Nottingham to Liverpool to them goes ahead?

 

[Domh245]

I don't think the 185s released by TPE have been mentioned.

It's widely expected they'll stay longer term as a result of TPE gaining Liverpool-Nottingham

The 175/180 Coradia fleets also don't seem to have a home after the next lot of orders/cascades happen.

All bar the 4 180s currently at EMR are with Grand Central and will be staying there (unless, rail fails to recover and GC go bust!), I wouldn't be surprised if the 4 EMR ones join them, either in service or as parts donors. 175s are a good point, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up with Northern once they've been replaced by the 197s (2024?)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are any 185s actually going to end up being released by TPE if the transfer of Nottingham to Liverpool to them goes ahead?

Difficult to tell.
The reorganisation of traffic through Castlefield might mean fewer TPE services to the airport.
If the transfer does go ahead, the equivalent 158s will be spare.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I don't think the 185s released by TPE have been mentioned.
The 175/180 Coradia fleets also don't seem to have a home after the next lot of orders/cascades happen.

We're also assuming that the railway will get back to its former service level and usage - it might not.

The 185's may be used by TPE for Liverpool to Nottingham

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Difficult to tell.
The reorganisation of traffic through Castlefield might mean fewer TPE services to the airport.
If the transfer does go ahead, the equivalent 158s will be spare.

158's could go to Northern to make longer trains even the 156s from EMR could be used by Northern once all the 170's are in service.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

20 years old, but for how many years have they actually been used? Especially since they were completely reconstructed from the frame upwards?

They weren't rebuilt from the frame upwards. Allegedly the toilets weren't even cleaned properly.

 

[Taunton]

They weren't rebuilt from the frame upwards. Allegedly the toilets weren't even cleaned properly.

Well they look completely different!

 

[fgwrich]

They weren't rebuilt from the frame upwards. Allegedly the toilets weren't even cleaned properly.

Well they look completely different!

I'm afraid they weren't. The ex Gatwick vehicles had their interiors changed downwards to match the SWT units, while the SWT units had their interiors refreshed. Toilets / Interior stickers / paneling pretty much remained the same. The cab ends on both units were totally rebuilt though to include the corridor connections though, but other than repaint very little work was actually carried out on the exteriors of the units.

Perhaps you are thinking of the ex Gatwick vehicles which had ribbon glazing, whereas the SWT vehicles did not.

 

[Class 170101]

The 222s aren't a suitable replacement for 170s (or 158/9s at SWR either) - but using them to operate certain current voyager diagrams (in double) allowing them to double up other services is a sensible use for them.

That would depend what routes you put them on. Nottingham to Cardiff would be suitable for a 4/5 Class 221 / 222. They are also cleared for Leicester to New Street.

I would say they are not suitable for SWR Exeter services though.

Class 379 Greater Anglia are real irony as they only entered service 9 years ago!! Apparently these are expensive to lease but I'm sure with an uncertain future ahead a more favourable lease could be arranged?

Well everyone is mooting them for battery conversion to replace 171's at Southern.

There was a rumour that the Class 379s were going to South Africa (Gautrain?) but whether this has been debunked or not I don't know. They have been used for battery conversion before on the Manningtree to Harwich branch.

You also can’t take all 10 cars to Exeter, Honiton Crossing Loop signalling is designed for 9x159 and can’t accommodate longer (also causes problems with diverted IETs).

I'd be interested in whats wrong with IETs in respect of Honiton?

 

[JonathanH]

I'd be interested in whats wrong with IETs in respect of Honiton?

Exactly what the previous poster wrote - ie the loop at Honiton isn't set up for 260m trains.

 

[43096]

There was a rumour that the Class 379s were going to South Africa (Gautrain?) but whether this has been debunked or not I don't know.

With regard to the 379s, I believe they were owned by Macquarie. As Macquarie have sold their European train leasing business to Akiem, it will be interesting to see if there is any change of strategy with these units.