The future of Royal Mail

[Bletchleyite]

Note: this involves COVID related issues but I'm making a wider point, so I've put it in General Discussion. Mods, feel free to move to the COVID forum if you believe that's a better fit.

ps Royal Mail (ParcelForce) has indeed benefited from more online retailing but CV19 has exacerbated the decline in letters and business post and that is where most of their cost and infrastructure sits.

The problem with RM (including ParcelFarce) for the future is that they are, generally speaking, an absolutely awful parcel courier, but their heavy Unionisation and archaic working practices prevent the reform that is needed. I think the Government sold them off because over time they are going to become an utter money pit. My prediction is that they will collapse within 5-10 years and the Government will issue a much reduced letter post contract to another firm, perhaps for deliveries twice a week to each home, and people wanting more than that will just use their preferred courier, most of which (Hermes and Yodel excepted) offer a vastly better service - even Amazon Logistics is now much better, with full tracking available.

I say this sitting in waiting for a RM so-called tracked parcel which I have no idea if it's going to arrive today or not. Every single other courier would tell me when it's out for delivery - even Hermes, which is considered to be pretty poor by most.

 

[SS4]

I've always found RM to be more reliable than other couriers like Hermes or Amazon who's drivers I find don't really care about their parcels. I'd rather the infrastructure of RM was updated to the same levels we see with the others

I'm of the opinion that RM were sold off because they weren't turning a profit and it was politically expedient at the time. No doubt if they fail the taxpayer will be forced to pay more for a worse service - especially if a senior member of the conservative party has links to it.

It's indicative of the race to the bottom we're experiencing where people would rather have cheap packages rather than quality service or support better jobs. We're all guilty of it because who wants to pay extra for delivery or pay almost as much in postage as the item itself?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's indicative of the race to the bottom we're experiencing where people would rather have cheap packages rather than quality service or support better jobs. We're all guilty of it because who wants to pay extra for delivery or pay almost as much in postage as the item itself?

Is that actually true?

It used to be you had no choice, but companies are slowly realising that people actually like it and will pay for certain levels of service. Certainly I find DPD to be a cut above the rest and they will (in normal times, not at the moment) allow me to "click and collect" at my local corner shop, and so I will pay extra for them to be used, and increasing numbers of companies are offering them by name.

I do agree with the point that with RM (but NOT ParcelFarce) the customer-facing staff (i.e. the posties) are very good, but the infrastructure is just awful and the management living in about 1975.

Yes, I'd like to see proper tracking with RM, i.e. so I can see on my phone exactly where the postie with my parcel is and a predicted time of arrival - which should actually be easier with RM as they operate fixed rounds!

 

[bearhugger]

Is that actually true?


I do agree with the point that with RM (but NOT ParcelFarce) the customer-facing staff (i.e. the posties) are very good, but the infrastructure is just awful and the management living in about 1975.

Yes, I'd like to see proper tracking with RM, i.e. so I can see on my phone exactly where the postie with my parcel is and a predicted time of arrival - which should actually be easier with RM as they operate fixed rounds!

Disclaimer: I work for Royal Mail as a Collections Driver.
We on the 'front-line' pride ourselves on Quality Of Service but the way we have to work and the PDAs we use are barely fit for purpose. The PDAs are basically mobile phones with a fancy outer case that allows us to scan barcodes.
I can see no reason why, on the delivery side, that once your parcel has been scanned at the depot by your postie, that you should get a notification that your parcel is out for delivery and once the posties is in within a certain distance of your house that you get another notification that the parcel should be with you within 30 minutes for example.
Seeing as we've just lost our CEO Rico Back, I would be happy if we got a senior bod from somewhere like DPD who could upgrade the parcels (and IT) side of things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seeing as we've just lost our CEO Rico Back, I would be happy if we got a senior bod from somewhere like DPD who could upgrade the parcels (and IT) side of things.

Agreed. RM could easily be the best courier, but at the moment, barring the pleasant staff, it's not far off being the worst, and even lacks features offered by the ones that most would consider to be the worst (i.e. Hermes and Yodel).

Said parcel has not arrived, so as it's half four I expect it'll be Monday. Nice of them to tell me.

 

[MotCO]

Whenever I have to return parcels, I much prefer to use RM because I've had a poor experience of Hermes, and RM is more convenient. Not being the recipient, I am not too worried as to when it arrives!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whenever I have to return parcels, I much prefer to use RM because I've had a poor experience of Hermes, and RM is more convenient. Not being the recipient, I am not too worried as to when it arrives!

Yes, sending from a Post Office is reasonably convenient and tends to be done with better trained staff than Hermes drop offs at corner shops. However, that is the Post Office and not Royal Mail, they are now two totally separate organisations.

 

[MotCO]

Yes, sending from a Post Office is reasonably convenient and tends to be done with better trained staff than Hermes drop offs at corner shops. However, that is the Post Office and not Royal Mail, they are now two totally separate organisations.

Agreed, but even Hermes drop off shops are not Hermes shops, they are Spar, Coop etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed, but even Hermes drop off shops are not Hermes shops, they are Spar, Coop etc.

To be fair most Post Offices are now other shops too (most commonly WH Smuggs voucher shops/reading rooms), they just have a couple of staff with additional training to operate it.

 

[507021]

Agreed. RM could easily be the best courier, but at the moment, barring the pleasant staff, it's not far off being the worst, and even lacks features offered by the ones that most would consider to be the worst (i.e. Hermes and Yodel).

Said parcel has not arrived, so as it's half four I expect it'll be Monday. Nice of them to tell me.

Royal Mail does offer a tracking service, which also tells you (on the day) when it is due for delivery. However, it's up to whoever's sending the parcel to provide the recipient with the tracking reference number in the first place. There's been a number of occasions where a sender didn't provide me with the tracking number, despite paying for that delivery option.

If the sender hasn't given you the tracking number, then that's in no way, shape or form Royal Mail's fault. I'd suggest you ask the sender to provide it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Royal Mail does offer a tracking service, which also tells you (on the day) when it is due for delivery.

No, it doesn't. Other than for Special Delivery which gets extra scans, it tells you when it has been "sorted for delivery", which means it's expected to be delivered on that day, but isn't necessarily actually going to be. The parcel I have wasted time waiting in for has not been, no doubt it'll just show up on Monday.

This is not good enough when even Hermes give you confirmation when the van it's on goes out and if I recall rightly a slot of at most a few hours, and the much derided Amazon delivery gives you a map with GPS tracking!

The Special Delivery level of tracking is now what should be provided for the basic service and is what most of the others are doing now, even the budget ones. But even that doesn't give you an actual slot nor a predicted time. For a high-cost premium service like SD a predicted time slot of at most 2 hours should be provided as well as actual GPS tracking of the postie and an updated expected time once the item has gone out.

It's just rubbish, and the fact that it is so much behind just demonstrates arrogant, old fashioned, shoddy management.

If the sender hasn't given you the tracking number, then that's in no way, shape or form Royal Mail's fault. I'd suggest you ask the sender to provide it.

I've got the tracking number. I'm complaining about the actual tracking system being well below par for 2020. It'd be excellent if it was 2010 but things have moved on.

 

[SS4]

Is that actually true?

It used to be you had no choice, but companies are slowly realising that people actually like it and will pay for certain levels of service. Certainly I find DPD to be a cut above the rest and they will (in normal times, not at the moment) allow me to "click and collect" at my local corner shop, and so I will pay extra for them to be used, and increasing numbers of companies are offering them by name.

I do agree with the point that with RM (but NOT ParcelFarce) the customer-facing staff (i.e. the posties) are very good, but the infrastructure is just awful and the management living in about 1975.

Yes, I'd like to see proper tracking with RM, i.e. so I can see on my phone exactly where the postie with my parcel is and a predicted time of arrival - which should actually be easier with RM as they operate fixed rounds!

In my experience it's still true although it [my experience] is limited as I prefer to use Argos where possible. When I order a product I am not being told who is delivering it.

 

[Mojo]

As someone who has recently had a clear-out and sold a shed load of stuff online, as well as having exchanged a few parcels with family during the lockdown, the only items that I dispatched via Royal Mail were those that were classed as letter or large letter, primarily due to the price. I don’t use Hermes out of principle, and even then the prices quoted by Royal Mail were substantially more.

I’d also prefer to avoid the Post Office if I can because there always seems to be a queue, but the independent shops never have anyone in them! Even if you pre-pay online if you want proof of postage in case of a lost parcel you still have to join the queue at the Post Office.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d also prefer to avoid the Post Office if I can because there always seems to be a queue, but the independent shops never have anyone in them! Even if you pre-pay online if you want proof of postage in case of a lost parcel you still have to join the queue at the Post Office.

I'm not sure what the way round that is, to be honest, other than maybe high-tech parcel boxes that would scan the barcode as you deposit your item, a bit Amazon Locker-esque? Actually, that doesn't sound like a bad idea.

 

[Mojo]

I'm not sure what the way round that is, to be honest, other than maybe high-tech parcel boxes that would scan the barcode as you deposit your item, a bit Amazon Locker-esque? Actually, that doesn't sound like a bad idea.

There are lockers run by a company called “Inpost” that work in the same manner. There’s one in a local station car park and I’ve also seen them in Petrol stations. They don’t seem to do the deliveries themselves, the locker near me at the station has a small Hermes logo on it, I’m not sure if they use a variety of companies or just Hermes.

The lockers must be made by the same company that make Amazon’s, as they are identical except for the branding.

I have used them previously, you scan the barcode on the home printed label, and then get your proof of drop off as either a printed label or emailed to you.

 

[507021]

No, it doesn't. Other than for Special Delivery which gets extra scans, it tells you when it has been "sorted for delivery", which means it's expected to be delivered on that day, but isn't necessarily actually going to be. The parcel I have wasted time waiting in for has not been, no doubt it'll just show up on Monday.

This is not good enough when even Hermes give you confirmation when the van it's on goes out and if I recall rightly a slot of at most a few hours, and the much derided Amazon delivery gives you a map with GPS tracking!

The Special Delivery level of tracking is now what should be provided for the basic service and is what most of the others are doing now, even the budget ones. But even that doesn't give you an actual slot nor a predicted time. For a high-cost premium service like SD a predicted time slot of at most 2 hours should be provided as well as actual GPS tracking of the postie and an updated expected time once the item has gone out.

It's just rubbish, and the fact that it is so much behind just demonstrates arrogant, old fashioned, shoddy management.

Just because Royal Mail's Track and Trace doesn't give you a time frame of when to expect delivery doesn't mean it isn't a tracking service. As you've pointed out before, post rounds are generally fixed, so surely this is a good enough indication of when to expect the parcel to arrive? Postmen/women generally have a lot more deliveries to make than a courier, and they don't have time to stand around scanning parcels to provide updates on their location every five minutes.

However, if you need to know where your parcel is, then I'd suggest offering to pay the sender more to use Special Delivery or a courier like DPD instead. I've done similar before.

I've got the tracking number. I'm complaining about the actual tracking system being well below par for 2020. It'd be excellent if it was 2010 but things have moved on.

If you're complaining, which you're entitled to do, then I'd respectfully suggest doing so to Royal Mail rather than on here. There's not really much we can do.

 

[507021]

There are lockers run by a company called “Inpost” that work in the same manner. There’s one in a local station car park and I’ve also seen them in Petrol stations. They don’t seem to do the deliveries themselves, the locker near me at the station has a small Hermes logo on it, I’m not sure if they use a variety of companies or just Hermes.

The lockers must be made by the same company that make Amazon’s, as they are identical except for the branding.

It's always been Hermes whenever I've had parcels shipped via InPost.

Fortunately, my local Hermes courier is reliable.

 

[Mojo]

Just because Royal Mail's Track and Trace doesn't give you a time frame of when to expect delivery doesn't mean it isn't a tracking service. As you've pointed out before, post rounds are generally fixed, so surely this is a good enough indication of when to expect the parcel to arrive? Postmen/women generally have a lot more deliveries to make than a courier, and they don't have time to stand around scanning parcels to provide updates on their location every five minutes.

I don’t know what it’s like in your area, but here, parcels are not delivered by the usual delivery officer, but a separate van with a different driver (it’s always the same person but not the person that delivers the smaller items like letters) turns up.

 

[507021]

I don’t know what it’s like in your area, but here, parcels are not delivered by the usual delivery officer, but a separate van with a different driver (it’s always the same person but not the person that delivers the smaller items like letters) turns up.

Yeah it's different in my area. Since I've been living here, all of my parcels shipped via Royal Mail have been delivered at the same time as the regular mail.

From memory, when I lived on the Isle of Man, it varied.

 

[MotCO]

I’d also prefer to avoid the Post Office if I can because there always seems to be a queue, but the independent shops never have anyone in them! Even if you pre-pay online if you want proof of postage in case of a lost parcel you still have to join the queue at the Post Office.

I'm lucky in that I have three sub Post Offices within easy reach, at least one of which is open 7 days a week. I never have to queue (except at Christmas), and I like to support the local sub Post Offices to help them survive.

 

[telstarbox]

I don’t know what it’s like in your area, but here, parcels are not delivered by the usual delivery officer, but a separate van with a different driver (it’s always the same person but not the person that delivers the smaller items like letters) turns up.

We have the same - any RM parcels come earlier by van, the letters are walked round a couple of hours later (the Delivery Office is in the next street).

 

[Bletchleyite]

We have the same - any RM parcels come earlier by van, the letters are walked round a couple of hours later (the Delivery Office is in the next street).

What appears to happen here is that they drive their van round, do the bigger parcels, then park it up and do the local letters and small packets on foot from the same van. I suppose this is what causes the issue - unlike a regular courier they aren't doing a round in the same way so you can't as easily predict who's next. However what would have been useful would have been an "out for delivery", which wouldn't be difficult to do as if it's been scanned into the van then it would only need to be one tap on the screen to say "I'm taking this van out" then I'd at least know it had (or hadn't) gone out, saving a wasted day.

Just because Royal Mail's Track and Trace doesn't give you a time frame of when to expect delivery doesn't mean it isn't a tracking service. As you've pointed out before, post rounds are generally fixed, so surely this is a good enough indication of when to expect the parcel to arrive? Postmen/women generally have a lot more deliveries to make than a courier, and they don't have time to stand around scanning parcels to provide updates on their location every five minutes.

However, if you need to know where your parcel is, then I'd suggest offering to pay the sender more to use Special Delivery or a courier like DPD instead. I've done similar before.

I didn't say it wasn't a tracking service, I just said it wasn't up to modern standards. With the proper IT systems you don't need to "stand around scanning parcels", the handheld device knows what's going on and reports it automatically. I am conscious that post rounds are a bit more complex than the way couriers work, but it wouldn't strike me as difficult to at least be able to record "the postie has started the round covering the delivery address" so you know it'll be along soon. That could be done by tapping a button to say "I've got out of the van to do round X", or if it was really clever it'd know automatically that the person had ceased moving at driving speed and started moving at walking speed in a location appropriate to said round.

As for the latter sentence about complaining, if we couldn't discuss dissatisfaction/constructive criticism with things on the Forum, that'd be a third of the posts gone!

As for using DPD, I do always pay for them if it's an option, but it isn't always offered, and nor is going to another supplier always an option.

 

[507021]

I didn't say it wasn't a tracking service, I just said it wasn't up to modern standards. With the proper IT systems you don't need to "stand around scanning parcels", the handheld device knows what's going on and reports it automatically. I am conscious that post rounds are a bit more complex than the way couriers work, but it wouldn't strike me as difficult to at least be able to record "the postie has started the round covering the delivery address" so you know it'll be along soon. That could be done by tapping a button to say "I've got out of the van to do round X", or if it was really clever it'd know automatically that the person had ceased moving at driving speed and started moving at walking speed in a location appropriate to said round.

As for the latter sentence about complaining, if we couldn't discuss dissatisfaction/constructive criticism with things on the Forum, that'd be a third of the posts gone!

As for using DPD, I do always pay for them if it's an option, but it isn't always offered, and nor is going to another supplier always an option.

In what way is a tracking system that tells you "your parcel is due to be delivered today" not up to modern standards? To say Royal Mail are an awful parcel courier just because they don't give you an exact time frame in which your parcel should be delivered is extremely unfair in my view. I really do think some people forget how lucky they are to live in an era where things like tracking a parcel from your computer or mobile phone is actually possible.

Yes, of course constructive criticism is fine, but have you actually suggested any of this to Royal Mail?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Generally prefer Royal Mail, although pricing can sometimes seem expensive. (Having said that, £3.10 for an up to 2kg small parcel sent second class is decent enough value though or an extra £1.00 if sent "Signed for").

Recently ordered some replacenent glasses, optician said that they'd have to be sent out rather than collected in store. Asked if they could be sent by Royal Mail. Response was that Hermes are used, and there's not any choice available.

Anyhoo, ten days later, parcel arrives. Hermes courier rings bell, says here's your parcel, and then promptly drops parcel on the floor in front of me. D'oh!

 

[Ashley Hill]

At least if you're not home the post office will leave you a note so you can collect a parcel at the sorting office. Hermes just leave it on your step or bin. We had a parcel stolen. Hermes insisted it was delivered AND signed for but as we were not home that was impossible. After much correspondence the Hermes courier admitted he had signed for it with my partners name off the parcel. We had a full refund and the seller no longer uses Hermes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In what way is a tracking system that tells you "your parcel is due to be delivered today" not up to modern standards?

Because pretty much all the others do better.

To say Royal Mail are an awful parcel courier just because they don't give you an exact time frame in which your parcel should be delivered is extremely unfair in my view. I really do think some people forget how lucky they are to live in an era where things like tracking a parcel from your computer or mobile phone is actually possible.

That doesn't excuse organisations that prefer to live in 1975.

Yes, of course constructive criticism is fine, but have you actually suggested any of this to Royal Mail?

They will already be aware of what their competitors are up to. If they aren't, then they deserve to fail as they have no business sense at all, but I would be surprised if their management was that incompetent.

At least if you're not home the post office will leave you a note so you can collect a parcel at the sorting office. Hermes just leave it on your step or bin. We had a parcel stolen. Hermes insisted it was delivered AND signed for but as we were not home that was impossible. After much correspondence the Hermes courier admitted he had signed for it with my partners name off the parcel. We had a full refund and the seller no longer uses Hermes.

There is only one courier I have dealt with that has seemingly engaged in that sort of fraud with a parcel of mine, and it was...Parcelfarce (which is notably worse than "mainline" Royal Mail, so bad that TBH I'd just close it down as I wouldn't know where to start in sorting out its awfulness).

I think one of the issues with the ones that use self-employed couriers with light touch management is that your experience depends on your local courier. I generally find Hermes and even Yodel OK because their local couriers do their job well. There are plenty, some would say the majority, who don't. Part of that is because they're underpaid, of course, so jobs of last resort.

Of course with regard to missed deliveries (which have those sorts of costs) those couriers are realising that tracking is the best way to prevent them, as it's easier to ensure you are available for a short timeslot than it is all day.

 

[cactustwirly]

Is that actually true?

It used to be you had no choice, but companies are slowly realising that people actually like it and will pay for certain levels of service. Certainly I find DPD to be a cut above the rest and they will (in normal times, not at the moment) allow me to "click and collect" at my local corner shop, and so I will pay extra for them to be used, and increasing numbers of companies are offering them by name.

I do agree with the point that with RM (but NOT ParcelFarce) the customer-facing staff (i.e. the posties) are very good, but the infrastructure is just awful and the management living in about 1975.

Yes, I'd like to see proper tracking with RM, i.e. so I can see on my phone exactly where the postie with my parcel is and a predicted time of arrival - which should actually be easier with RM as they operate fixed rounds!

I actually spat my drink out there!!
DPD are the worst, the only delivery service that has consistently failed to deliver parcels. They mark the parcel as a failed delivery even when they've never visited the property. I'm guessing they are given too many parcels in a round to cut costs??

Hermes are ok, lot's of eBay sellers use them and they are quite quick tbf.

I don't get the hate for RM, they are reliable, the tracking system is decent, just a bit on the slow side.
Their tracking is on par with DHL and FedEx tbh.
The cheapest delivery option of second class parcel doesn't provide tracking, but the next level up does (Tracked 48) lots of eBay sellers use the later option anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I actually spat my drink out there!!
DPD are the worst, the only delivery service that has consistently failed to deliver parcels. They mark the parcel as a failed delivery even when they've never visited the property. I'm guessing they are given too many parcels in a round to cut costs??

I've literally never had that from them. The only one that's carded me based on an assumption when I was actually in (and in the lounge, so no way I missed a knock) was, wait for it, Royal Mail. They admitted in that case that they hadn't even got the parcel out of the van and had just pre-written a card and shoved it through with the letters. I wasn't, as you would imagine, very impressed.

I think that goes to prove that your experience (moving away from the technicalities of the design of the service) depends mostly on the local courier.

 

[MotCO]

Slightly OT, but I am able to track my Pizza Hut delivery on a map. I can see when it leaves the shop, whether it makes a stop-off en route, and when it arrives. If they can do that with Pizzas, I'm surprised couriers can't do it with parcels. It presumably needs someone to scan it into a sack, and for the sack to be scanned into a van, then GPS can track the van.

 

[507021]

Because pretty much all the others do better.

At least with Royal Mail I know my parcel will arrive on time (barring the odd exception, but that's life) and undamaged. I'm with bearhugger, I really fail to see the need for an "out for delivery" notification and then another when they're within a certain distance of your address. My mail usually arrives between 9 and 10 o'clock, so for me, that's a good enough indication of when my parcel is due to be delivered.

That doesn't excuse organisations that prefer to live in 1975.

Again, I think you need to show some gratitude for the fact you can actually track a parcel in first place.

They will already be aware of what their competitors are up to. If they aren't, then they deserve to fail as they have no business sense at all, but I would be surprised if their management was that incompetent.

Well maybe they'll actually do something about it if enough people suggested it rather than complaining about their parcel not arriving on a rail enthusiast forum. There really are far more important things to worry and complain about in life than a parcel being a day or two late, especially during a pandemic.