What are your observations of face coverings wearing on public transport?

[Scotrail12]

Took the train into Glasgow today, seemed to be mostly compliant on trains. Not everyone wearing them on stations though but that doesn't matter too much.

Sadly, ScotRail are still focused on social distancing which kinda negates the point of wearing masks.

At least there is now a little bit less hostility towards those making 'non-essential' journeys on ScotRail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Took an "illicit" bus journey (as it was entirely non-essential) earlier on for the first time since March. There were enough passengers after I boarded that it was only just possible to distance (i.e. to leave an empty row between people). Everyone (including me) was wearing a mask other than the driver who was behind a screen.

 

[Skutter]

BTP positioned on platforms this morning, holding and checking each train at:
Dagenham Heathway
Whitechapel
Aldgate East
South Kensington
then removing non-wearers

Removing all non-wearers?

 

[birchesgreen]

I think a pair of BTP were doing that at Tile Hill today, i don't think they removed anyone though.

 

[route101]

Took the train into Glasgow today, seemed to be mostly compliant on trains. Not everyone wearing them on stations though but that doesn't matter too much.

Sadly, ScotRail are still focused on social distancing which kinda negates the point of wearing masks.

At least there is now a little bit less hostility towards those making 'non-essential' journeys on ScotRail.

Unlike first bus , you can sit anywhere on the train. Yep, noticed a few people walking through Glasgow Central without masks , maybe people walking through station as a shortcut.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder to please keep on topic - we are discussing observations of face covering wearing on public transport in this thread.


Thanks

 

[tramdan]

Removing all non-wearers?

This also intrigued. I have legitimate exemption from the requirements, therefore removing me for not wearing one would be playing very dangerous in respect of the equality act.

Directly on topic, I've found things to vary between around 60-95% actually wearing them depending on location and time of day. Of course the number wearing them is not an indication of compliance, or lack thereof, because any number of those not wearing them could also be doing so entirely legitimately.

 

[talldave]

My partner had another of her regular run-ins with BTP on the train today; depressing that they will lie in order to bully passengers into wearing masks.

When she was told to put a mask on, she replied that she was exempt. BTP asked "what exemption?". She pointed out that she's not legally required to detail her medical exemption, to which the BTP officer rather surprisingly replied "There are no exemptions madam. You have to wear a mask with the new legislation or you do face a fine. Or arrest.". She suggested that they consult the government website, BTP replied "Madam I will have to issue a fine or carry out an arrest". She replied "OK. Go ahead. Which one will it be? A fine or an arrest?", at which point the officer didn't reply and moved on.

Her observation following this confrontation was a round of applause in the carriage and at least 8 people removed their masks.

It's frustrating that many people, particularly those with nervousness or anxiety issues, won't stand their ground during such a confrontation and will probably not travel by train again. So sad that this is Great Britain in 2020 .

 

[Jonny]

BTP positioned on platforms this morning, holding and checking each train at:
Dagenham Heathway
Whitechapel
Aldgate East
South Kensington
then removing non-wearers

Removing all non-wearers?

It's a case of good luck with that, you're going to need it, especially if you're holding trains on LU. Especially since more than a couple of incidents of hardcore non co-operation, out of a lot of people would result in significant operational problems. Given a low prevalence meeting a very low mortality rate, they would struggle to justify the use of much force.

This also intrigued. I have legitimate exemption from the requirements, therefore removing me for not wearing one would be playing very dangerous in respect of the equality act.

Directly on topic, I've found things to vary between around 60-95% actually wearing them depending on location and time of day. Of course the number wearing them is not an indication of compliance, or lack thereof, because any number of those not wearing them could also be doing so entirely legitimately.

It would be very dangerous indeed, especially given the low risk level given both a low prevalence and a low mortality rate.

My partner had another of her regular run-ins with BTP on the train today; depressing that they will lie in order to bully passengers into wearing masks.

When she was told to put a mask on, she replied that she was exempt. BTP asked "what exemption?". She pointed out that she's not legally required to detail her medical exemption, to which the BTP officer rather surprisingly replied "There are no exemptions madam. You have to wear a mask with the new legislation or you do face a fine. Or arrest.". She suggested that they consult the government website, BTP replied "Madam I will have to issue a fine or carry out an arrest". She replied "OK. Go ahead. Which one will it be? A fine or an arrest?", at which point the officer didn't reply and moved on.

Her observation following this confrontation was a round of applause in the carriage and at least 8 people removed their masks.

It's frustrating that many people, particularly those with nervousness or anxiety issues, won't stand their ground during such a confrontation and will probably not travel by train again. So sad that this is Great Britain in 2020 .

The trouble is that BTP are paid for by the rail industry. Yes, they are operationally independent and act as Constables on the railway; however there is always a question mark over their future funding deriving from that, and there may be a hint to 'try it on a bit' to keep their funding. It would also be interesting to know whether their core training as Constables (apart from the directly railway-related training), or even how they receive updates to their training (as per new legislation), differs from the territorial/Home Office forces. I was under the understanding that the Police were supposed to ask about exemptions as their starting point.

 

[northernchris]

Mask compliance seems to be improving from my observations, and on at least 3 journeys I've been on lately staff have patrolled the train reminding those without a covering they are now required unless exempt (which in 2 cases people have magically pulled one out of their pocket)

 

[Scrotnig]

My partner had another of her regular run-ins with BTP on the train today; depressing that they will lie in order to bully passengers into wearing masks.

When she was told to put a mask on, she replied that she was exempt. BTP asked "what exemption?". She pointed out that she's not legally required to detail her medical exemption, to which the BTP officer rather surprisingly replied "There are no exemptions madam. You have to wear a mask with the new legislation or you do face a fine. Or arrest.". She suggested that they consult the government website, BTP replied "Madam I will have to issue a fine or carry out an arrest". She replied "OK. Go ahead. Which one will it be? A fine or an arrest?", at which point the officer didn't reply and moved on.

Her observation following this confrontation was a round of applause in the carriage and at least 8 people removed their masks.

It's frustrating that many people, particularly those with nervousness or anxiety issues, won't stand their ground during such a confrontation and will probably not travel by train again. So sad that this is Great Britain in 2020 .

This behaviour is outrageous and is precisely the reason some people with legitimate exemptions, such as myself, cannot go on trains and now cannot go in shops either.

We are slowly being excluded from life completely.

 

[greyman42]

Mask compliance seems to be improving from my observations, and on at least 3 journeys I've been on lately staff have patrolled the train reminding those without a covering they are now required unless exempt (which in 2 cases people have magically pulled one out of their pocket)

What was unusual about people pulling masks out of their pockets?

 

[northernchris]

What was unusual about people pulling masks out of their pockets?

That they weren't exempt and should have been wearing them anyway

 

[greyman42]

That they weren't exempt and should have been wearing them anyway

I see plenty of people not wearing masks on trains who probably have a mask in their pocket. I don't think its uncommon. Personally, i could not care less.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see plenty of people not wearing masks on trains who probably have a mask in their pocket. I don't think its uncommon. Personally, i could not care less.

Why would you carry a mask with you if you needed the exemption because it caused you breathing problems or severe distress, as it would be a waste of money, as you'd never be able to wear one?

 

[Skimpot flyer]

My partner had another of her regular run-ins with BTP on the train today; depressing that they will lie in order to bully passengers into wearing masks.

When she was told to put a mask on, she replied that she was exempt. BTP asked "what exemption?". She pointed out that she's not legally required to detail her medical exemption, to which the BTP officer rather surprisingly replied "There are no exemptions madam. You have to wear a mask with the new legislation or you do face a fine. Or arrest.". She suggested that they consult the government website, BTP replied "Madam I will have to issue a fine or carry out an arrest". She replied "OK. Go ahead. Which one will it be? A fine or an arrest?", at which point the officer didn't reply and moved on.

Her observation following this confrontation was a round of applause in the carriage and at least 8 people removed their masks.

It's frustrating that many people, particularly those with nervousness or anxiety issues, won't stand their ground during such a confrontation and will probably not travel by train again. So sad that this is Great Britain in 2020 .

This tale is the complete opposite of what I witnessed at Brighton station last Saturday evening, around 9:30pm.
There was a Black Lives Matter protest during the day, the weather was ok, so most people stayed behind and were streaming up to the station as I arrived.
I saw 5 or 6 BTP staff stood outside the main station entrance, watching as people headed in via the central arch (arriving passengers are being directed around the side entrances). Whilst waiting for a bus, I asked one officer a question...
‘Excuse me, but I can’t help but notice that virtually every one of these people going into the station are not wearing masks. All of you are stood watching, not advising or reminding people of the regulations. Can you please tell me why?’
‘Well, sir, masks are not actually compulsory on stations, only on the actual trains. Enforcement would be a lot easier if they were required on stations, too’ came the reply.
‘I do know that’ I said ‘but is your presence outside the station serving any useful purpose, then?’
‘We are here to protect the public’ was the reply.

It was only later that I thought this answer was daft. Why did they not at the very least have half their number stand the paid side of the barriers, when people were clearly about to board a train? Their presence was serving no useful purpose that I could see, in the circumstances.

 

[takno]

That they weren't exempt and should have been wearing them anyway

It seems perfectly sensible for certain people to be exempt and still carry a facemask. Ability to wear a mask may vary with the state of somebody's health hour to hour, or it may be unwise for them to wear one when they are out of breath, or for more than a few minutes at a time. Hell, it may be less of a health risk for them to wear a mask for a couple of minutes when challenged than to have to explain their health situation in a hostile public environment.

It's know-it-alls making hostile judgements without having any relevant information who are making this situation so untenable for vulnerable people right now

 

[greyman42]

Why would you carry a mask with you if you needed the exemption because it caused you breathing problems or severe distress, as it would be a waste of money, as you'd never be able to wear one?

Perhaps they never had the exemption but just hated wearing masks.
Perhaps they had an exemption but just carried the mask in case someone did not accept their exemption and threatened action against them, in which case they put the mask on for a few seconds until the bully walks away.

 

[mmh]

Why would you carry a mask with you if you needed the exemption because it caused you breathing problems or severe distress, as it would be a waste of money, as you'd never be able to wear one?

What a strange question. I have one in my coat pocket, unused, but it's there in case I'm forced to by an overzealous employee. It's easy to envision that situation, so I've planned for it happening.

 

[northernchris]

It seems perfectly sensible for certain people to be exempt and still carry a facemask. Ability to wear a mask may vary with the state of somebody's health hour to hour, or it may be unwise for them to wear one when they are out of breath, or for more than a few minutes at a time. Hell, it may be less of a health risk for them to wear a mask for a couple of minutes when challenged than to have to explain their health situation in a hostile public environment.

It's know-it-alls making hostile judgements without having any relevant information who are making this situation so untenable for vulnerable people right now

It's clear that the current situation isn't fit for purpose. I started to re-use the trains in early June and they were no issues at all, trains were lightly loaded, often operating at maximum length and passenger numbers were so low there was more than enough room to maintain the then 2m social distancing guidance. Now the pubs and restaurants have reopened and overnight stays are permitted there's been a substantial increase in passenger numbers, and combined with Northern now reverting to 2 car formations it can be difficult to even maintain 1m distance on some trains. If people won't follow the guidance on coverings then there needs to be some way to control loadings or there will be an uptick in infections. Having 100 people on a 2 car unit is a potential breeding ground for the virus - and it's quite likely people have the virus without knowing so could potentially be passing it on. I honestly can't see why anyone would not want to comply with wearing a covering if they don't fit in to the exemptions category, and there needs to be a lot more support for those who are exempt (maybe the sunflower lanyard could be used?) so they can travel without the fear of intimidation

 

[43066]

If people won't follow the guidance on coverings then there needs to be some way to control loadings or there will be an uptick in infections.

That’s probably going to happen anyway at some stage, but we need to get people travelling again.

I honestly can't see why anyone would not want to comply with wearing a covering if they don't fit in to the exemptions category,

Possibly because there’s still virtually no evidence that face coverings make a meaningful difference to transmission. It’s a stupid measure which is clearly motivated by a desire to provide “reassurance” to the irrational.

Many people (at least those of us who can think for ourselves) no longer have any faith that the government knows what it’s doing, and no longer wish to obey its ridiculous instructions.

 

[yorksrob]

It's clear that the current situation isn't fit for purpose. I started to re-use the trains in early June and they were no issues at all, trains were lightly loaded, often operating at maximum length and passenger numbers were so low there was more than enough room to maintain the then 2m social distancing guidance. Now the pubs and restaurants have reopened and overnight stays are permitted there's been a substantial increase in passenger numbers, and combined with Northern now reverting to 2 car formations it can be difficult to even maintain 1m distance on some trains. If people won't follow the guidance on coverings then there needs to be some way to control loadings or there will be an uptick in infections. Having 100 people on a 2 car unit is a potential breeding ground for the virus - and it's quite likely people have the virus without knowing so could potentially be passing it on. I honestly can't see why anyone would not want to comply with wearing a covering if they don't fit in to the exemptions category, and there needs to be a lot more support for those who are exempt (maybe the sunflower lanyard could be used?) so they can travel without the fear of intimidation

It would help if Northern strenthened more of it's services. It has a stack of 144's sat idle at Keighley that ought to be used.

 

[yorksrob]

That’s probably going to happen anyway at some stage, but we need to get people travelling again.



Possibly because there’s still virtually no evidence that face coverings make a meaningful difference to transmission. It’s a stupid measure which is clearly motivated by a desire to provide “reassurance” to the irrational.

Many people (at least those of us who can think for ourselves) no longer have any faith that the government knows what it’s doing, and no longer wish to obey its ridiculous instructions.

To be honest, I've not seen any evidence of public transport actually driving infections either. Certainly not on systems where the majority of people do wear face coverings.

 

[bramling]

That’s probably going to happen anyway at some stage, but we need to get people travelling again.



Possibly because there’s still virtually no evidence that face coverings make a meaningful difference to transmission. It’s a stupid measure which is clearly motivated by a desire to provide “reassurance” to the irrational.

Many people (at least those of us who can think for ourselves) no longer have any faith that the government knows what it’s doing, and no longer wish to obey its ridiculous instructions.

Absolutely.

The prime minister and health secretary are clearly beacons for us all, with the former managing to end up in intensive care. Then we have the chief adviser off from London to Durham, and as if that wasn’t enough then off for a day out allegedly for the most ridiculous of reasons.

No wonder people feel more inclined to trust their own instincts, not least when we’ve heard from all the scientists over the last six months how masks are of dubious benefit, and may quite probably be of some disbenefit.

 

[43066]

Absolutely.

The prime minister and health secretary are clearly beacons for us all, with the former managing to end up in intensive care. Then we have the chief adviser off from London to Durham, and as if that wasn’t enough then off for a day out allegedly for the most ridiculous of reasons.

No wonder people feel more inclined to trust their own instincts, not least when we’ve heard from all the scientists over the last six months how masks are of dubious benefit, and may quite probably be of some disbenefit.

Indeed.

It makes you wonder how much longer this utter madness will continue. For a long time yet, seems to be the unfortunate reality.

 

[northernchris]

Possibly because there’s still virtually no evidence that face coverings make a meaningful difference to transmission. It’s a stupid measure which is clearly motivated by a desire to provide “reassurance” to the irrational.

Many people (at least those of us who can think for ourselves) no longer have any faith that the government knows what it’s doing, and no longer wish to obey its ridiculous instructions.

I agree about the evidence being vague, although the WHO seem to be gradually shifting their stance to be pro-face coverings. I'm far from a lockdown enthusiast, the last thing I would want is restrictions being reimposed, so see wearing a covering as a minor inconvenience

It would help if Northern strenthened more of it's services. It has a stack of 144's sat idle at Keighley that ought to be used.

Indeed! Manchester has seen the 142s being reinstated so 4 car trains can run, yet West and South Yorkshire still have many 2 car services which are starting to fill up

 

[43066]

I agree about the evidence being vague, although the WHO seem to be gradually shifting their stance to be pro-face coverings. I'm far from a lockdown enthusiast, the last thing I would want is restrictions being reimposed, so see wearing a covering as a minor inconvenience

Fair enough, and I know a lot of people who take their view. My concern is that it won’t have any meaningful impact on infection rates (or any possible future lockdowns, God forbid) but it might suppress passenger numbers.

As far as the WHO is concerned I know there is some concern that their change of mind is in response to political pressure (this was discussed in detail on a thread in this section a few days ago).

 

[takno]

I agree about the evidence being vague, although the WHO seem to be gradually shifting their stance to be pro-face coverings. I'm far from a lockdown enthusiast, the last thing I would want is restrictions being reimposed, so see wearing a covering as a minor inconvenience

It's important to bear in mind that facemasks are deeply personal and by design interfere with an absolutely essential human function. Some people find that they can accommodate that with only minor inconvenience, other people find it constantly unpleasant and impossible to get used to, and in others it provokes a genuine and lasting sense of terror.

In spite of not really seeing any decent evidence in support of them, and frankly finding the world in general more difficult to confidently navigate when everybody is masked, I'm not at all unhappy if other people feel empowered by wearing them. I wish I could do the same, if only because I absolutely hate not fitting in in public. I can't though. Right now I feel like I'm being forced to admit to a quite shameful and debilitating phobia, and far from being supported through it, I'm hearing constant suggestions that I'm somehow trying to look hard or indulge in toxic masulinity.

Wear your mask with pride, but please, it's not your job to police it. Always assume best intent, and bear in mind that it's a numbers game - if masks are useful then 80% mask-wearing is 80% useful. Let people do what they can to help, and don't demand that everybody does what you can.

 

[johntea]

There were a couple of "Travel Safe" officers enforcing face masks on a Northern service about to depart Leeds this evening, who had to put up with a couple of passengers who would have benefited from a face mask not to help prevent infection but to help shut their gobs up a little bit!

One of their long list of excuses was 'Well I travelled from Wakefield without having to wear one!'

The thing with the £100 fine is I believe these Travel Safe staff don't have the power, so would have to call in the BTP, which would delay the train (if the passenger refused to leave it) and that would end up presumably costing Northern far greater than £100!

 

[43066]

In spite of not really seeing any decent evidence in support of them, and frankly finding the world in general more difficult to confidently navigate when everybody is masked, I'm not at all unhappy if other people feel empowered by wearing them. I wish I could do the same, if only because I absolutely hate not fitting in in public. I can't though. Right now I feel like I'm being forced to admit to a quite shameful and debilitating phobia, and far from being supported through it, I'm hearing constant suggestions that I'm somehow trying to look hard or indulge in toxic masulinity.

I’m very sorry to hear that. Perhaps consider displaying a badge clearly stating you are exempt. There are various templates available online. Hopefully that will help although, of course, there should be no need for you to have to do this.

It’s absolutely disgusting that people feel the need to be vigilantes, and it makes me question what kind of country I’m living in, frankly.