First Greater Glasgow

[PaulMc7]

I think there's definitely a want for a completely new, public run system in Scotland but it depends how much the Scottish government would put into it.

Glasgow for the biggest city in Scotland is pretty limited in bus use although I think a major part of that is having First with a monopoly but also having to invest in so many other things. Bus use has fallen off of a cliff and part of that is the spells with no investment into new vehicles but it was unavoidable because First have every other operation in the UK and then rail and tons of American investments.

I think things would have been better with an operator who had less to cover than First have but the government need to do more too.

Whole system needs reworked in order to make money but serve the public effectively

 

[DunsBus]

Yes the Dumbarton area was Central up until 1985 (based at Old Kilpatrick) then it was inherited by Kelvin.

If I recall correctly Kelvin closed 3 depots. Baillieston in 1985 (although could've been Eastern), Kilsyth in 87 and Milngavie in 89. The early pressures from deregulation undoubtedly forced them into making these decisions.

Baillieston was closed by Eastern in March 1985. The vehicles based there went to Midland at Stepps before passing to Kelvin that June.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Thanks DunsBus. Couldn't remember if Kelvin had it briefly.

 

[156478]

I think there's definitely a want for a completely new, public run system in Scotland but it depends how much the Scottish government would put into it.

Glasgow for the biggest city in Scotland is pretty limited in bus use although I think a major part of that is having First with a monopoly but also having to invest in so many other things. Bus use has fallen off of a cliff and part of that is the spells with no investment into new vehicles but it was unavoidable because First have every other operation in the UK and then rail and tons of American investments.

I think things would have been better with an operator who had less to cover than First have but the government need to do more too.

Whole system needs reworked in order to make money but serve the public effectively

Agreed. A very large fresh piece of paper is needed to start again from absolute scratch. Even though I can come across as heartless when it comes to economics, at the end of the day not everyone can afford a car, not everyone is legally allowed to drive a car and we should all be doing our bit for the carbon footprint.

However Public ownership which seems to be the great dream, but entirely undeliverable.

There's plenty of people out there in pressure groups and social media pages who think that buses should be publicly operated, but none of them have ever given the answers to or are aware of the following----

1. Can they solve the issue where you have to run a service that clearly is required, but the revenue taken in the farebox covers even just the drivers wages and the fuel- nevermind the other expenses of running buses.
2. Have they actually seen the accounts of a major group and prove that the shareholders have been gouging the business when it could have been invested in keeping a marginal service in the fringes of Glasgow operating?
3. Can they tell me what PVR stands for? What is the PVR for the First Glasgow service 2?
4. Can you understand that BSOG is not a public subsidy to run a specific bus service?
5. Can you tell me how much it costs per mile to operate a bus?
6. What is the reimbirsement rate for concessionary fares and how the scheme actually works and how it has decimated bus companies in Scotland as a result?
7. Where are you going to find the money to purchase an entire bus operation that makes the owning group consideable amounts of money, as many of the advocates of public ownership in Scotland seem to think that First will sell Aberdeen or Glasgow at bargain basement rates. Pre-pandemic Glasgow's profits were propping up underpeforming Aberdeen and Scotland East.
8. Love them or hate them, the existing senior management teams at First, McGills and Stagecoach West Scotland are all very experienced at what they do, your not taking over a company that has been run into the ground by a bunch of rookies who have no clue about the bus industry- what can you do that is so different to the MDs at these operations who have been in the business for decades and have a real passion for the business?
9. Have you actually got someone in your group who has operated bus services and has relevant qualifications to do so? and not just a bunch of people who are - quite rightly so not happy about cuts to their bus services and think they can do better? Everyone has an opinion on running a bus service, but what do you know that is better than the people currently in the ivory towers currently running the buses? I have friends who are wildly critical of managers of football teams and think they should do it this way and that way and the way they do it is all wrong as they told me in the pub and have no experience of running a top tier football team.
10. before the coronavirus public services were starved of funding. Councils were having to make some plainly heartbreaking decisions to cut or worse - close down services as they couldn't afford to fund them anymore. Can you reassure me that this will not happen to the buses when they return to public ownership?
11. Can you understand that bus operators for years invested profits from busy routes to keep marginal routes operating- as per a public operator would be obliged to do so and this situation could not continue due to financial pressures? Not through choice FirstGroup were forced to operate services for many years that lost them money hand over fist, McGills operated a fair few services that lost money but kept them going to retain a network, Stagecoach in the good times nationally pump primed the X16 what it was at the time- a blueprint of how public and private money jointly invested can create a very sucessful service.
12. The current legislation allows for competition. Competiton has been more of a curse than a blessing for buses. What will be your plans for competition? Will you legislate to stop competition against your network?- but all the time knowing that it is a legal minefield in the country where healthy competition is encouraged for the interests of the customer.
13. Lothian Buses is indeed a model of public ownership. But it has behaved very aggressively towards FirstGroup in the past and run them out of places they and their predecessors ran for generations. It's used its resources against it's competitors to intimidate them- anyone remember the AAA numberplates on one of the Lothian Motorcoaches vehicles? its Lothian Motorcoaches company undercut its competitors in the day trip market. For a while it had a monopoly on the open top bus tours as it bought out its competition, and overall in Edinburgh and the Lothians now It's now very close to a monopoly in its area and if you were to try and go against them- they will make you regret it.

I think for the next few decades we are stuck with what we have got unfortunately.

 

[PaulMc7]

Agreed. A very large fresh piece of paper is needed to start again from absolute scratch. Even though I can come across as heartless when it comes to economics, at the end of the day not everyone can afford a car, not everyone is legally allowed to drive a car and we should all be doing our bit for the carbon footprint.

However Public ownership which seems to be the great dream, but entirely undeliverable.

There's plenty of people out there in pressure groups and social media pages who think that buses should be publicly operated, but none of them have ever given the answers to or are aware of the following----

1. Can they solve the issue where you have to run a service that clearly is required, but the revenue taken in the farebox covers even just the drivers wages and the fuel- nevermind the other expenses of running buses.
2. Have they actually seen the accounts of a major group and prove that the shareholders have been gouging the business when it could have been invested in keeping a marginal service in the fringes of Glasgow operating?
3. Can they tell me what PVR stands for? What is the PVR for the First Glasgow service 2?
4. Can you understand that BSOG is not a public subsidy to run a specific bus service?
5. Can you tell me how much it costs per mile to operate a bus?
6. What is the reimbirsement rate for concessionary fares and how the scheme actually works and how it has decimated bus companies in Scotland as a result?
7. Where are you going to find the money to purchase an entire bus operation that makes the owning group consideable amounts of money, as many of the advocates of public ownership in Scotland seem to think that First will sell Aberdeen or Glasgow at bargain basement rates. Pre-pandemic Glasgow's profits were propping up underpeforming Aberdeen and Scotland East.
8. Love them or hate them, the existing senior management teams at First, McGills and Stagecoach West Scotland are all very experienced at what they do, your not taking over a company that has been run into the ground by a bunch of rookies who have no clue about the bus industry- what can you do that is so different to the MDs at these operations who have been in the business for decades and have a real passion for the business?
9. Have you actually got someone in your group who has operated bus services and has relevant qualifications to do so? and not just a bunch of people who are - quite rightly so not happy about cuts to their bus services and think they can do better? Everyone has an opinion on running a bus service, but what do you know that is better than the people currently in the ivory towers currently running the buses? I have friends who are wildly critical of managers of football teams and think they should do it this way and that way and the way they do it is all wrong as they told me in the pub and have no experience of running a top tier football team.
10. before the coronavirus public services were starved of funding. Councils were having to make some plainly heartbreaking decisions to cut or worse - close down services as they couldn't afford to fund them anymore. Can you reassure me that this will not happen to the buses when they return to public ownership?
11. Can you understand that bus operators for years invested profits from busy routes to keep marginal routes operating- as per a public operator would be obliged to do so and this situation could not continue due to financial pressures? Not through choice FirstGroup were forced to operate services for many years that lost them money hand over fist, McGills operated a fair few services that lost money but kept them going to retain a network, Stagecoach in the good times nationally pump primed the X16 what it was at the time- a blueprint of how public and private money jointly invested can create a very sucessful service.
12. The current legislation allows for competition. Competiton has been more of a curse than a blessing for buses. What will be your plans for competition? Will you legislate to stop competition against your network?- but all the time knowing that it is a legal minefield in the country where healthy competition is encouraged for the interests of the customer.
13. Lothian Buses is indeed a model of public ownership. But it has behaved very aggressively towards FirstGroup in the past and run them out of places they and their predecessors ran for generations. It's used its resources against it's competitors to intimidate them- anyone remember the AAA numberplates on one of the Lothian Motorcoaches vehicles? its Lothian Motorcoaches company undercut its competitors in the day trip market. For a while it had a monopoly on the open top bus tours as it bought out its competition, and overall in Edinburgh and the Lothians now It's now very close to a monopoly in its area and if you were to try and go against them- they will make you regret it.

I think for the next few decades we are stuck with what we have got unfortunately.

Fully agree with everything you've said. The bus network isn't changing in even my lifetime and I'm only 26. More does need to be done by companies to communicate with the public and government or we could be in a far rougher situation than even the most negative of people think we are going to be after covid is out of the way. Resources need to be used perfectly and that's why finding out exactly where the public want to go is the best bet now. Build a good relationship with the public and it could save a lot of money.

I think every area should have a bus but communication with the public is the key to making a profitable service work

I also believe that service effiency and trying to have multiple services do the same job needs a fair bit of work too. For example, the 77 covers the Partick to QEUH section well so imo you don't need the 8 and 16 to go there at all. You then also don't need the 90 to go to Braehead when the 77 does it too. The 90 could easily terminate at the QEUH but cover the main bus area and the 90s current route through it to be more efficient. Another example is the 38E. By having the 38B do what it is currently that's more efficient than having both services and tbh given that the 38B only adds in Warriston St over the 38E you could argue that the 38B could be rerouted via Edinburgh Road and then turn right at Carntyne Square. If it even came to it create a permanent all day service 38A and have it run via Warriston Street then the current 32 route up to rejoin the 38. Gives people a link to the 8 to go to Parkhead from Alexandra Parade and keeps North Carntyne and Ruchazie south with a bus service

 

[sannox]

I also believe that service effiency and trying to have multiple services do the same job needs a fair bit of work too. For example, the 77 covers the Partick to QEUH section well so imo you don't need the 8 and 16 to go there at all. You then also don't need the 90 to go to Braehead when the 77 does it too. The 90 could easily terminate at the QEUH but cover the main bus area and the 90s current route through it to be more efficient.

But they are doing different jobs. The 8 is serving the QEUH from Maryhill and Summerston and the 16 from Anniesland and Blairdardie. If you cut it back to Partick, you have a change to the QUEH and a change is a huge disincentive to using public transport.

Same with the 90 which gives access to Braehead from Pollokshields/Shawlands.

 

[adrock1976]

What works in one place will not work in another.

TFL nearly collapsed into a black hole due to the pandemic- if it wasnt for the government bail out it they would have had to shut the system down and it was already circling the drain before hand.

It was also in severe financial restraints as the mayor introduced hopper fares and fares freezes a few years ago to canvass votes. They then came along with the great idea of shutting off busy lanes on main roads in London and making them Cycle Highways to the detriment to bus travel speeds. Then giving children free travel was just the topping on the cake to their financial woes.

The result is TFL who were already up the proverbial creek without a paddle before the pandemic nearly didnt even have a boat to be without a paddle during the pandemic. They have shut down tube ticket offices and making remorseless cuts wherever they can.

There's a reason the fare is £1.50, because you would only get the bus to go short distances because of the pre-pandemic congestion or where you wanted to go didnt have something that ran on metal wheels.

SPT can certainly consult residents. But doing anything worthwhile with the views of customers is another story. Their regulatory powers are close to non existant. They are a reactive organisation and not a proactive organisation.

I don't see Stagecoach wanting to charge the same fare for someone travelling from the top end of Ardrossan to the town centre paying the same as someone going from Dumfries to Glasgow.
Or McGills charging one flat fare to go from Linwood to the Phoenix on the 7 that is the same as from Linwood to Glasgow on the X7.
First charging someone the same fare to go from Helensburgh to Glasgow on the One the same fare as someone going from Central Station to Watt Brothers.

There again, Glasgow is not in the middle of constructing a Crossrail project that is delayed in opening and has gone a lot over the original budget. That may be one of the reasons how TfL had to be bailed out.

 

[PaulMc7]

But they are doing different jobs. The 8 is serving the QEUH from Maryhill and Summerston and the 16 from Anniesland and Blairdardie. If you cut it back to Partick, you have a change to the QUEH and a change is a huge disincentive to using public transport.

Same with the 90 which gives access to Braehead from Pollokshields/Shawlands.

The reliability of the 8/90 is a big enough turn off so shortening the route would help with that especially given what the Clyde tunnel is like from about 3 onwards. I also wouldn't suggest those cuts if I'd actually seen a busy bus in those sections either. The amount of 8s and 16s especially that I've seen practically empty there is far higher than most of what I've seen since they've gone there. If the 77 was less frequent too it would be different but given what the parking is like at the hospital I don't think that many would switch if any at all. If First could do more with the timetables to make services more reliable then it would be a massive incentive to using the bus

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

The 8 is pretty reliable these days. I use it most days getting to and from work.

 

[PaulMc7]

The 8 is pretty reliable these days. I use it most days getting to and from work.

It's been okay occasionally when I've used it but I remember plenty of times even towards the beginning of 2020 where it was 15/20 mins late and a couple of times I waited close to an hour on one

 

[PaulMc7]

Will be interesting to see what passenger numbers are like going forward after next weekend for the 9/9A and 10. Mcgills going back to full service on the 3rd of August so Paisley Road West will be back to being flooded with 38s.

Wonder if it would also affect the 90 round to Govan onwards to Braehead from Paisley Road West too as it's easy enough to walk round to get a 23 or 26 for Mcgills too

 

[PaulMc7]

Tried to work out ways First could encourage people back onto their buses quicker here and normally I have plenty of ideas but there's not much you can do really that I haven't mentioned already.

Consultations with passengers
A price decrease
Some sort of incentive for unemployed people similar to what Scotrail are doing

Can't really think of too much else that could work

 

[Stena Galloway]

Tried to work out ways First could encourage people back onto their buses quicker here and normally I have plenty of ideas but there's not much you can do really that I haven't mentioned already.

Consultations with passengers
A price decrease
Some sort of incentive for unemployed people similar to what Scotrail are doing

Can't really think of too much else that could work

Just been reading through some posts and a few questions about these suggestions.

In what way would a consultation with passengers bring them back on buses?

Lowering fares is all well and good but if there aren't as many people travelling on your services as before why would you operate them at even more of a loss with lesser fares?

First Glasgow already do Glasgow Job seeker fares with reduced prices so why would they start to let people on for free when they are already offering them reductions?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Lower fares are just going to make it harder for services to be viable...

 

[Stena Galloway]

Lower fares are just going to make it harder for services to be viable...

100% agree Jordan.

 

[smtglasgow]

Might not be a popular opinion with some, but Glasgow’s weekly and monthly tickets compare well with comparable cities. City 4 week on the app is £53 compared to £56 (dd) or £60 (ridacard) on everybody’s favourite, Lothian. With the state on bus company finances, fares are only going in one direction.

Hopefully First will have a serious look at the network. It’s likely that commuting will reduce over the long term, but new patterns might emerge. There will be reductions, but with luck they’ll do it intelligently – ie. coordinating times over common sections of route.

 

[danielwilkie]

You can do lots of things to sort out buses but the elephant in the room will always be the concession card scheme. Bus companies are not getting full reimbursement for these passengers causing problems with higher fares to compensate or slashing bus services as concession alone cant keep a service afloat

 

[christopherrfc]

The 208 is returning from Monday

https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/node_images/208.pdf

 

[PaulMc7]

The reason I mention fares is down to the fact First will only lose more passengers if they increase them. It's been part of the problem over the years but turning away paying customers will keep happening because people won't be in the position to afford the bus due to the pandemic. With how many people have lost jobs etc and let's be honest in Glasgow low income is pretty common too, by increasing fares you're more likely to cut off the people most likely to use your buses.

Yes, reimbursement isn't good but only putting things up and up to scrape a few extra pence back clearly hasn't worked before the pandemic so it's hardly going to work now

 

[PaulMc7]

The 208 is returning from Monday

https://www.firstgroup.com/uploads/node_images/208.pdf

Surprised First caved with this tbh especially so quickly

 

[overthewater]

Looks more like a spt contract.

 

[Stena Galloway]

But First haven't announced fare increases so your jumping to conclusions. What happens to the people who will be priced out of buses? Will they buy cars instead? Will they start to use taxis? Or will the walk the 4 or 5 miles in to work and do the same going home?

 

[PaulMc7]

But First haven't announced fare increases so your jumping to conclusions. What happens to the people who will be priced out of buses? Will they buy cars instead? Will they start to use taxis? Or will the walk the 4 or 5 miles in to work and do the same going home?

People will always find other options one way or another to avoid First because of prices. Just look at the increase in cycling due to the pandemic. There's an option immediately. Even for families too. Even with deals for family tickets a car still works out cheaper a lot of the time. That's also a massive problem. Cost is fine if you're not on a low income but poverty is so common in Glasgow

 

[Jordan Adam]

I agree that increasing fares can turn people away, however the reverse (cheaper fares = more passengers) isn't always true. Part of the issue with lowering fares is that you're relying on a passenger increase to make up for the lost revenue. It's a very big risk to take and at the moment i find it highly unlikely lowering fares would make any difference in passenger numbers. People have been put off buses and it's a fact the industry is going to have to adapt to as things are unlikely to change anytime soon, the best route for operators is to make savings where possible while retaining as much service as possible. Specifically lowering the number of vehicles on the road is key, hence why i mentioned the other week they should be lowering frequencies of the core routes slightly, i've listed below how they could do this. It's only a small change in frequency however when you're talking about long high frequency routes it can make huge savings without any real negative affect to passengers or general service levels. The reduction in PVR would allow First to take off some buses thus reducing running costs and increasing profitability without any loss in revenue.

Basic Frequency changes could be:
3/4 Minute > 5 Minute
5 Minute > 7/8 Minute
6 Minute > 7/8 Minute
7/8 Minute > 10 Minute
10 Minute > 12 Minute
12 Minute > 15 Minute
15 Minute > 20 Minute

You can do lots of things to sort out buses but the elephant in the room will always be the concession card scheme. Bus companies are not getting full reimbursement for these passengers causing problems with higher fares to compensate or slashing bus services as concession alone cant keep a service afloat

Fully agree, the reason single fares tend to be so high is precisely because of this...

 

[PaulMc7]

The timing of the branding for the 2/3 wasn't great for this because I reckon every 15 mins with deckers could work on the 3. Plenty of savings there given that it's a route longer than 2 hours. Definitely every 10 mins on the 2 would work. Could honestly see the 6 working with an every 15 mins frequency if precovid experience was anything to go by although what happens with the subway could affect the 4/4A and 6/6A pretty significantly if it gets a massively reduced frequency.

Short workings being cut could help too although not many services had them precovid. Unless I'm missing any only the 21 and 255 spring to mind. Wonder if the 7A will keep it's current route too and leave the 7 going to Summerston only. Every 15 mins on that could maybe work

 

[awsnews]

This information has been posted on other pages and is most likely already on first fleet lists, and isn’t exactly exciting or world changing news. some of the below are still being used for fleet paint / retrofit campaigns at other depots:

Destined for / or already at Dumbarton
66735/948/949/954
66988/66989/69019/69122

Digging up an old post but all of the above have been in use at Dumbarton recently, with the addition of 69016. I am sure I have seen 69122 but it doesn't 'track' to confirm.
I guess this meant the lockdown service changes saw the demise of the B10BLEs and the end of 'Barbie' in the FiG fleet.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Digging up an old post but all of the above have been in use at Dumbarton recently, with the addition of 69016. I am sure I have seen 69122 but it doesn't 'track' to confirm.
I guess this meant the lockdown service changes saw the demise of the B10BLEs and the end of 'Barbie' in the FiG fleet.

If i'm not mistaken Ex-Aberdeen 69110/122 have been at Dumbarton for a while?

 

[PaulMc7]

First Glasgow MXZ 2143 (43872) | Route 6 | Clydebank Bus Station, W. Dunbartonshire

By no means a techincal masterpiece, the above image nevertheless shows Caetano-bodied Dart 43872 picking up at Clydebank's Chalmers St with a 6 to East Kilbride (Calderwood). It was on loan from Scotstoun to Caledonia for the day. Photo Date: 20th November 2019

www.flickr.com

Was looking around for times where buses you wouldn't expect to appear on a route have and I think this may be up there in regards to that. Also seen these buses on a 3 and a 60 before too

 

[awsnews]

If i'm not mistaken Ex-Aberdeen 69110/122 have been at Dumbarton for a while?.

69110 went to Caledonia from Livingston whilst 69122 went to Dumbarton back in November. The point I was making is that I wasn't sure if 69122 has returned to service at Dumbarton yet as it doesn't 'track' and I haven't gotten a picture to confirm. 66735 only returned on Friday so the allocation is still a bit fluid. Despite the E400MMCs being moved elsewhere with the last service uplift Dumbarton didn't get its Geminis back either.

 

[route101]

Interesting that the 208 didn't have a registration go through with these ones. Could just be delayed. As far as the 31 goes I do think something needs to take its place.

The thing I always found weird about the 31 is the route between Gorbals and Mount Florida. Feel like it would have faired so much better if it had the same route as the 5 considering it would have ran where the most passengers are. Always found that when I used it off peak it was busier in East Kilbride around Stewartfield and Kirtonholme than it was from Osborne St to Mount Florida. Could also have maybe picked up more of the college students at Battlefield Road too granted we are still a little bit away from colleges returning to normality

The sunday service 31 used to go the 5 route . People are likely to use train from Mount Florida. More freqent and cheaper.