Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

[class26]

They ought to be using informed commentators like Tony Miles, who will be clear and accurate.

They did, Tony was on the Radio 4 news yesterday lunchtime.

 

[DDB]

As well as paying tribute to those that have passed away, I just wanted to say well done to the person whoever they were (first reports were it was a third member of crew) who had the presence of mind after being involved in a no doubt terrifying accident to get to the signal box to raise the alarm.

 

[Bigfoot]

As well as paying tribute to those that have passed away, I just wanted to say well done to the person whoever they were (first reports were it was a third member of crew) who had the presence of mind after being involved in a no doubt terrifying accident to get to the signal box to raise the alarm.

I was discussing this with some fellow traincrew yesterday. Arrived in a state of shock, which I am sure is an understatement.

If you're reading this, or someone knows them, thank you/them from a member of the railway family. I hope, God forbid I am in the same kind of situation, that I have the same presence of mind.

We (colleagues) all agreed that three T's and a Dog Sandwich (or whichever variation of the memory trigger you use, it really doesn't matter) for emergency protection/getting help doesn't leave the mind, as it is drummed in so much from the moment you join the railway as part of the basics of PTS.

 

[neonison]

We know that 2B13 passed the crash site (same track) ~07:00 and that 1T08 passed the same about a minute later.
Whether either reported anything is not known but if either did it cannot have been considered serious as 1T08 was allowed to proceed northbound before 09:30.

Would 1T08 have been allowed to proceed with caution if anything had been reported?

How otherwise could the train have been evacuate?

Presumably Carmont (which once had a Goods Station) is accessible by road. (Seems so from OS maps)

incident at Grid ref: NO 80568 84572

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Andrew Anderson on BBC Breakfast just now maintaining that the train was attempting to continue its journey to Glasgow.

 

[berneyarms]

News at 10 continued the really poor reporting. Some reporter interviewed by Sophie Raworth in the studio, firstly said the driver "asked for permission to move onto another track". Then he went on a rant about how "questions must be asked should trains have been running at all in those weather conditions".
Dreadful standard of reportage. Turned the TV off.

Yes "almost always result in fatalities". He's clearly decided it's an open and shut case, weather conditions were too bad for trains to run.
Literally hasn't got a clue what he's talking about. I wish they'd teach these folk that they have a moral duty to get it right, and if they don't know the first thing about a subject, STFU or find a different story to report on rather than mislead millions of people.

Was he the science editor or transport correspondent?

That was Tom Burridge, the BBC's Transport Correspondent. His background is a news and foreign correspondent, but you would expect that he would be more on top of his brief than he was last night.
The coverage from the BBC News at Ten is here:

 

[LowLevel]

The vast majority of the people I know who have changed their profile picture it have been other drivers, guards, managers etc for whom yesterday was a pretty horrible shock and produced some strong "but for grace of God" emotions. We don't tend to apply arbitrary company boundaries imposed by political masters on each other and it is very unusual for passenger traincrew and indeed their passengers to be killed at work.

It is one of the most unpleasant emotions I've experienced booking on knowing that (at the time one colleague and subsequently two) other people will no doubt have gone through the same motions that morning and not made it back to the mess room. There were some extremely sad faces around the network yesterday.

 

[Killingworth]

As well as paying tribute to those that have passed away, I just wanted to say well done to the person whoever they were (first reports were it was a third member of crew) who had the presence of mind after being involved in a no doubt terrifying accident to get to the signal box to raise the alarm.

Most contributors to this forum are well informed about railways and their operation. None of us knows how they would react if involved in an incident like this. We'd certainly be shocked, possibly injured and with little knowledge of precise location.

There wers few other people on the train. We're led to believe there was one (maybe four) rail staff and a handful of passengers spread through 4 coaches, 3 of which are wrecked. We suspect there was no mobile phone signal.

What do we do now? Just getting out of the train woukd be daunting enough for many travellers. It doesn't surprise me that the alarm wasn't raised until the time reported. .If a passenger or surviving crew member had to pick themselves up, and walk back to the signal box that could easily take 30 minutes or more from the time of the accident.

However, although the site is in a wooded valley it's not as remote as some suggest. There are farms nearby. If the sound of the crash wasn't noticed the rising smoke surely was. The number of emergency vehicles filmed while smoke was still rising suggests the alarm was raised quite quickly.

Taking 2 hours to reverse is not unusual when a route ahead is blocked by landslides or flooding. First thoughts will be to see if that road ahead is safe to proceed with care. Fairly recently two East Midlands HSTs got stuck in mud when taking a diversionary route. Once tracks are covered it's impossible to quickly assess what's underneath. It appears Network Rail had already reached the flooding to the south and decided it was not safe for the train to proceed.

As very many have said it now needs time for all the pieces in the jigsaw to be put togerher. Most of the information is now known, but the 5,000 pieces aren't fully assembled.

What is very clear is that when we get flash floods water can do an immense amount of damage in a small area very quickly. That is not a.new phenomena, but it seems to have been happening imore frequently in recent years. Or maybe electronic instant media just makes it appear that way!

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is very clear is that when we get flash floods water can do an immense amount of damage in a small area very quickly. That is not a.new phenomena, but it seems to have been happening imore frequently in recent years. Or maybe electronic instant media just makes it appear that way!

Bit of both, I suspect. Certainly there's more extreme weather, but 20 years ago you wouldn't likely know of a landslip closing a line (but not causing an accident) unless you showed up to travel on it and found buses on instead. Even now, if a landslip closes a road you probably don't know about it.

 

[GB]

There were two landslips. The first one reported by 2B13 someway south of Carmont towards Laurencekirk at about 0700. 1T08 was already on the way south from Stonehaven but was stopped by a GSMR REC. After an undetermined amount of time the decision was made to send 1T08 back to Stonehaven using the trailing crossover at Carmont. Again after an undetermined time 1T08 traversed the crossover and traveled back "right road" (North bound) where at some point in time it encountered the landslip that derailed it. The staff member that reached Carmont signal box should indeed be commended but it wasn't him/her that raised the initial alarm (they got to the box after 1030), that was done by a third party not connected to the railway at about 0945 or so.

Personally I believe the time difference between 0700 and the derailment time was down to control/Network Rail making the decision to send 1T08 back to Stonehaven and having someone available to come out and secure the points at Carmont for the crossover move and the move its self....I can't quite believe the train laid in a derailed state for so long that no one on the railway noticed...but as I said that's just my opinion.

 

[DelW]

I think there is one scenario that could explain the amount of damage to the train. It seems plausible that the leading power car derailed to the left on the approach to the bridge, possibly caused by weather related settlement of the approach embankment. In that situation it could strike the masonry parapet end-on, in which direction it is both strong and very "stiff" (resistant to deflection). The power car would decelerate very suddenly, causing the concertina effect in the coaches behind, which were still being pushed from the rear. The collision with the parapet could also account for the severe damage to the leading power car, including rupturing the fuel tank. There are photos which appear to show large blocks of masonry in the river, which show that the parapet had some involvement in the accident.

 

[Gems]

One of the best ideas I ever saw was the 'Settle to Carlisle' weather boards. Long gone now, some posters may possibly remember them. But after the derailment and death of conductor 'Stuart Wilson' in the 'Ais Gill' accident of 1995. (An incident with some strikingly similar under tones as yesterdays accident I might add) Lancaster university came up with a rather clever notion of introducing what were known as weather boards.

The Settle to Carlisle route was divided into sections and each section was covered by a weather board. If the weather dictated the risk of flooding or landslip was possible in the area of that weather board, a temporary speed restriction for that section was imposed. Of course the idea was sound enough, but it became clear over time that it had serious limitations due to the unpredictability of water dynamics.

The weather boards are long gone in favour of earth works to reduced the risk of landslip, but history has shown us earthworks alone are not the all singing, all dancing, answer to every risk. So maybe, just maybe, there is a place for weather boards after all.

Some of you may think in today's modern age of GSM-R communication it should be easy to impose temporary speed restrictions rather than fall back on old ideas. But the truth is that it is just not happening is it. There is a system failure at the root of incidences of bad weather. Nobody seems to want to be the one to say "Lets put a blanket speed restriction on until we know for sure that it is safe"

As for the crews. I knew both Stuart and John who were the guards on the 'ais gill' trains. Stuart lost his life and John often told me of his feelings of deep guilt that he had survived.

 

[neonison]

Did 2B13 only initiate GSM-R REC on arrival at Stonehaven?
2B13 is shown as 9 late at Stonehaven.

 

[Peter Kelford]

It's a 1km walk to the signalbox. That's probably the most accessible building from the accident scene.

And to be fair unless one knows how to walk safely along tracks then it's quite a long walk.

I do wonder though as to why a train that clearly wouldn't have left a block for 1 to 2 hours would not have raised any alarm bells.

Regarding the second remark, this was based on a news report on the Telegraph's website yesterday, which highlighted the fact that there was a long delay between the incident's alleged taking place and emergency services arriving. I would also like to add my apologies if the message causes any distress.

 

[Bill EWS]

Carmont is a block section and used as a regular turn back for engineering trains or during other line problems. Trains can be turned back running correct direction.

 

[neonison]

Was 2B13 still at platform in Stonehaven when 1T08 started back North?

 

[Gems]

I do wonder though as to why a train that clearly wouldn't have left a block for 1 to 2 hours would not have raised any alarm bells.

I find it really hard to believe this scenario has took place. I mean if there is any truth in it, serious questions need to be asked.

 

[ainsworth74]

Good morning everyone,

I see there has been quite a bit of activity overnight on this thread. Just a few points from me as a result.

I would ask that we leave the discussion about whether or not the expressing of sympathy, changing of Facebook profile pics, etc is appropriate and a useful gesture or not at this point. People are welcome to disagree about it but it is not directly relevant to this incident so if anyone does wish to continue the conversation please do so on a new thread. The Forum Staff, as a procedural point, have no objection to people posting their condolences and sympathies on this thread however.

I would also ask that we again think about what we're posting before we post it. I think in particular how we are treating each other and the tone we are using with other members. It was a difficult and emotional day yesterday for the railway and so I would like to think that we, as either people who like railways or, in many cases, work on or with the railway would cut each other a little more slack than perhaps we might do normally.

Finally, the Forum has plenty of capacity to support more threads so if there is something you want to discuss but it isn't directly related to this horrible accident then please do feel free to start a new thread. You might even want to link to this one or quote a post from this thread in your opening post.

Thanks,
ainsworth74

 

[Andyh82]

It's a 1km walk to the signalbox. That's probably the most accessible building from the accident scene.

I'm not sure a member of the public would think about walking to a signal box, I know I wouldn't. They wouldn't even know there was one there

They are more likely to leave the railway, and walk through the woods/fields to the nearest road and then try to find a house or flag down a passing car.

I'm guessing standard mobile phone signal might be poor as well, which may explain the long delay before the incident was reported?

Although surely signallers would know something was amiss, when the train didn't proceed

 

[bramling]

I find it really hard to believe this scenario has took place. I mean if there is any truth in it, serious questions need to be asked.

There doesn’t seem to be any hard evidence to say that it did, save for the fact that time has elapsed - but that time elapsed seems to be quite easily explainable by other things, not least the time to make the decision to turn the train back and making the arrangements to carry that out.

This is something which very much needs to be left to the official investigation to get to the bottom of. The site isn’t *that* remote - yes it’s a rural location but not massively remote nor inaccessible by Scotland standards.

It’s certainly fortunate nothing was coming through on the up line at the time, thankfully in the circumstances this was unlikely.

 

[Serathor]

Thoughts to all involved.

 

[tiptoptaff]

A gofundme page has been set up to support the families of the Driver and Guard who booked on yesterday, but never booked off. Hope it's ok to post here for the railway family to donate if they wish

Donate to 1T08, organized by Dave Downey

With what has happened today and we are a railway family let's help out the driver's family and the conduct's family… Dave Downey needs your support for 1T08

www.gofundme.com

 

[38Cto15E]

When the leading power car became derailed and seperated from the rest of the train, would the rear power car still have power for a second or two which made the derailment much worse?

 

[najaB]

I'm guessing standard mobile phone signal might be poor as well, which may explain the long delay before the incident was reported?

I wasn't aware that we had confirmed that there was a long delay before the incident was reported.

 

[najaB]

When the leading power car became derailed and seperated from the rest of the train, would the rear power car still have power for a second or two which made the derailment much worse?

Even if it wasn't under power, mass multiplied by velocity means a lot of momentum.

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes easy to forget that the signaller will have been heavily involved in the events both before and after. One of the news reports showed the box surrounded by police tape (no doubt routine rather than indicating anything untoward). Very much thoughts with him or her at this difficult time.

Following a serious incident on the Marches line I had a long chat with an RAIB inspector when they came to observe at our Box, and recall that any Box directly involved would be treated as a "scene of crime" and that nothing should be touched or moved, except to provide emergency protection, and that the position of all levers and instruments should be noted in the TRB. I'm sure the same instruction is/was in the Rule Book.

I see that the RAIB have sent an email this morning saying that their Inspectors are now investigating and on scene.

 

[RPI]

A gofundme page has been set up to support the families of the Driver and Guard who booked on yesterday, but never booked off. Hope it's ok to post here for the railway family to donate if they wish

Donate to 1T08, organized by Dave Downey

With what has happened today and we are a railway family let's help out the driver's family and the conduct's family… Dave Downey needs your support for 1T08

www.gofundme.com

How long will the page be up for mate? It's payday next Friday (certainly for GWR staff) and will chuck a few quid in then if the page is still up and running then.

 

[QueensCurve]

That explains why some of the bridge parapet is in the river below. From the proximity I’d hazard a guess that at least one of the vehicles went over the bridge at an extremely skewed angle.

In this pictrure from BBC Reporting Scotland, it almost looks as if the parapet has been stripped off the bridge on the Down side.

 

[Rob_76]

I'm not sure a member of the public would think about walking to a signal box, I know I wouldn't. They wouldn't even know there was one there

They are more likely to leave the railway, and walk through the woods/fields to the nearest road and then try to find a house or flag down a passing car.

I'm guessing standard mobile phone signal might be poor as well, which may explain the long delay before the incident was reported?

Although surely signallers would know something was amiss, when the train didn't proceed

I think it is likely that a member of the public would walk to the nearest signal in sight to find an SPT. Signal CM7, on the up line, would have only been a few hundred yards from the accident site. In the down direction signal SV19 would have been more than a mile away.

 

[tiptoptaff]

How long will the page be up for mate? It's payday next Friday (certainly for GWR staff) and will chuck a few quid in then if the page is still up and running then.

No idea, I just chucked a bit in now because it was no hardship. I'd imagine it'll be there on Friday. Being GWR myself, I may make a more meaningful contribution next week