Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

[bramling]

I think there is one scenario that could explain the amount of damage to the train. It seems plausible that the leading power car derailed to the left on the approach to the bridge, possibly caused by weather related settlement of the approach embankment. In that situation it could strike the masonry parapet end-on, in which direction it is both strong and very "stiff" (resistant to deflection). The power car would decelerate very suddenly, causing the concertina effect in the coaches behind, which were still being pushed from the rear. The collision with the parapet could also account for the severe damage to the leading power car, including rupturing the fuel tank. There are photos which appear to show large blocks of masonry in the river, which show that the parapet had some involvement in the accident.

This seems to be a good post, and would certainly be supported by the way the first carriage seems to have suffered significant underbody damage.

No doubt like many I spent a fair amount of time staring at the photos last night, struggling to make sense of it all. There don’t seem to by any photos or footage which show the lead-up to the bridge. Clearly the structural condition of the bridge isn’t in doubt as rescuers can be seen walking on it.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I think it is likely that a member of the public would walk to the nearest signal in sight to find an SPT. Signal CM7, on the up line, would have only been a few hundred yards from the accident site.

Depends if they knew they'd find a phone at the signal, or even to look for one. I'd wager in a state of shock, most members of the public wouldn't.

 

[Killingworth]

I wasn't aware that we had confirmed that there was a long delay before the incident was reported.

Looking at a map it would seem highly likely someone nearby would have heard a crash of that magnitude in open country. Rising smoke would have immediately set alarm bells ringing and a dash to the nearest phone, mobile or landline. I'd be very surprised if the first report to emergency services was more than 5 minutes after the incident.

I say this after once hearing a single motor vehicle hit a tree in open country in the dark, some distance from where I was working. You just know something bad has happened, and being local you know where to go to get to the scene.

 

[Denco3]

I'm not sure a member of the public would think about walking to a signal box, I know I wouldn't. They wouldn't even know there was one there

They are more likely to leave the railway, and walk through the woods/fields to the nearest road and then try to find a house or flag down a passing car.

I'm guessing standard mobile phone signal might be poor as well, which may explain the long delay before the incident was reported?

Although surely signallers would know something was amiss, when the train didn't proceed

There are at least two mobile sites that should have sufficiently covered the area of the accident. However there were some power cuts that morning, and for a period of time sites were offline. I'm not sure when power was restored.

No doubt this will be an item in the RAIB report, if it was a factor in anyway

 

[JKF]

Depends if they knew they'd find a phone at the signal, or even to look for one. I'd wager in a state of shock, most members of the public wouldn't.

I suspect much of the population wouldn’t even know what a signal is, let alone expect there to be a telephone on there.

i think the instinct in modern times would be to try and get somewhere with a mobile signal, so head up the nearest hill.

Also consider this incident happened fairly early in the day (haven’t seen anything other than speculation on the time), so may not have been many people out and about in the vicinity - the works site nearby may not have been active yet.

 

[Horizon22]

I think it is likely that a member of the public would walk to the nearest signal in sight to find an SPT. Signal CM7, on the up line, would have only been a few hundred yards from the accident site. In the down direction signal SV19 would have been more than a mile away.

Not sure the average member of the public knows this at all. They'd probably just keep trying their mobile or look for any form of landmark.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it is likely that a member of the public would walk to the nearest signal in sight to find an SPT. Signal CM7, on the up line, would have only been a few hundred yards from the accident site. In the down direction signal SV19 would have been more than a mile away.

I doubt it would occur to most members of the public that there would be a telephone on the signal post. That's railway-specific knowledge. And even with some railway knowledge I wouldn't necessarily assume there would be one at every signal (is there?)

I suspect what I'd do, even with railway background knowledge, assuming I wasn't too injured to do it, would be to first try my phone, and if that had no signal to leave the railway and head for the nearest apparent habitation, checking my phone as I went, if I got a signal I'd stop there and phone 999. That said the other thing under consideration on a double track might be to head in the direction the train didn't come from to make sure there wasn't another one about to hit it that would need flagging down to see if it could be stopped. Which would take me to the protecting signal, and if there was an SPT I could then use that.

 

[158756]

Depends if they knew they'd find a phone at the signal, or even to look for one. I'd wager in a state of shock, most members of the public wouldn't.

State of shock or otherwise, probably upwards of 99% of the general public have no idea there might be a phone anywhere on the railway.

 

[Rob_76]

I suspect much of the population wouldn’t even know what a signal is, let alone expect there to be a telephone on there.

i think the instinct in modern times would be to try and get somewhere with a mobile signal, so head up the nearest hill.

Also consider this incident happened fairly early in the day (haven’t seen anything other than speculation on the time), so may not have been many people out and about in the vicinity - the works site nearby may not have been active yet.

Agreed. There is a lot of supposition going on. RAIB might rush out some preliminary findings and recommendations if it was weather related, as it looks like some parts of the country will be battered for a few days yet.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

It was reported (cannot recall if in this thread or elsewhere) that the first Network Rail knew about this was from being informed by Police Scotland. A member of the public, not on board the train, reported to Police Scotland that a train had derailed and caught fire. The local police then subsequently informed the BTP and Network Rail.

OK - thanks; I thought I'd read somewhere - quite early on - that the alarm had been raised by a member of staff informing the signaller at Carmont

 

[AndyW33]

There were two landslips. The first one reported by 2B13 someway south of Carmont towards Laurencekirk at about 0700. 1T08 was already on the way south from Stonehaven but was stopped by a GSMR REC. After an undetermined amount of time the decision was made to send 1T08 back to Stonehaven using the trailing crossover at Carmont. Again after an undetermined time 1T08 traversed the crossover and traveled back "right road" (North bound) where at some point in time it encountered the landslip that derailed it. The staff member that reached Carmont signal box should indeed be commended but it wasn't him/her that raised the initial alarm (they got to the box after 1030), that was done by a third party not connected to the railway at about 0945 or so.

Personally I believe the time difference between 0700 and the derailment time was down to control/Network Rail making the decision to send 1T08 back to Stonehaven and having someone available to come out and secure the points at Carmont for the crossover move and the move its self....I can't quite believe the train laid in a derailed state for so long that no one on the railway noticed...but as I said that's just my opinion.

Why would anyone need to come out and secure the points at Carmont? They are in the control area of the adjacent Carmont signalbox, which is staffed 24 hours a day. Surely they are part of the Carmont interlocking and worked from the box, and even if they aren't, wouldn't the signaller be available to secure them?

 

[Rob_76]

I doubt it would occur to most members of the public that there would be a telephone on the signal post. That's railway-specific knowledge. And even with some railway knowledge I wouldn't necessarily assume there would be one at every signal (is there?)

No, there's not one at every signal. Given the geography, I'm sure there would have been one at CM7.

 

[Swanny200]

I suspect much of the population wouldn’t even know what a signal is, let alone expect there to be a telephone on there.

i think the instinct in modern times would be to try and get somewhere with a mobile signal, so head up the nearest hill.

Also consider this incident happened fairly early in the day (haven’t seen anything other than speculation on the time), so may not have been many people out and about in the vicinity - the works site nearby may not have been active yet.

There is also the added thing of the way some mobile phones are made these days, if it was on a table or lap at the time of the accident, it would likely be rendered useless. How far were the Network Rail crew that took the video of the original landslip to the accident site in that they may have witnessed or heard it while on site?

 

[najaB]

How far were the Network Rail crew that took the video of the original landslip to the accident site in that they may have witnessed or heard it while on site?

Well over a mile away. The location in the video was (AFAIK) somewhere south of Carmont.

 

[Esker-pades]

For clarification:

As I understand, the only car left standing was the power car at the up end of the train. Is this correct?

 

[St Mikey]

.

 

[RPI]

For clarification:

As I understand, the only car left standing was the power car at the up end of the train. Is this correct?

The pictures show the rear power car and the rear most coach upright, although the coach appears to have at least partially left the road

 

[LAX54]

First and foremost my thoughts are with those who have sadly died or been injured, and their families and friends at this difficult time. And those involved in dealing with the aftermath.

Just some thoughts:
1. “Why was this accident not reported until 0943?” - If all members of crew on board are incapacitated (say), one assumes that those who manage to get out would look for the nearest house/farm to raise the alarm. People with shock/injuries could take time to get to a place to do this given both the challenging terrain and the weather.
2. This accident has many parallels with previous accidents involving HSTs at Southall, Ladbroke Grove, and Ufton level crossing. The rear power car still carrying momentum means there is a lot of energy to be absorbed in a very small time. To be clear, all of these accidents had different causes. However, what I am saying is that the end effect in each case is similar: carriages overriding others (little protection; will raise questions about older carriages and crashworthiness); cab destruction (again raising protection and crashworthiness); fire (we all remember the ensuing fire at Ladbroke Grove; questions around fuel tank strength and durability in accidents; presumably new hybrids are better in this regard).

Regarding the cause of this particular appalling accident, I won’t speculate. RAIB etc will do their work and either the police or official rail people will provide updates.

In the scheme of things it was not overly long when you think of the seriousness of the incident, terminated at Carmont, would have waited a while, whilst decisions are made, then it ran back at reduced speed to Stonehaven crossed back right road, however as both Guard and Driver were sadly part of the fatalities, and it seems the mobile signal is not the best there, whilst Signallers knew the train was overdue, I assume there was not a lot they could do for a while ?

 

[pompeyfan]

For clarification;

A member of public reported the incident to police Scotland, taking reference from the app ‘WHAT THREE WORDS’ at around 0945, with the 3rd member of traincrew walking to the signal box and arriving there around 1030.

The train had indeed performed a WDM but was travelling in the correct line. The departure time from the origin station is not relevant to the incident.

 

[father_jack]

State of shock or otherwise, probably upwards of 99% of the general public have no idea there might be a phone anywhere on the railway.

And would it be locked ?

 

[Killingworth]

In this pictrure from BBC Reporting Scotland, it almost looks as if the parapet has been stripped off the bridge on the Down side.

View attachment 82161

The clue we may be missing is the mud on the track seemingly settled above the bridge to the right of this picture. I'd have wanted to see a little further in that direction for that's where the problem probably arose. By the time this was taken the entire train has passed through it, any standing water has had time to drain away, and the mud has setlled again. It's remarkable to see so little apparent damage to track.

It doesn't make clear that this is on a gentle curve witn a slight inclination to the right in the direction the train was travelling.

It seems the power car derailed in the mud (and whatever else it may have concealed) and was then pushed forwards and over the parapet by the force from the rear power car, the rest inevitably following. When the couplings sheared in relation to the embankment will have determined the final positions of the units.

Plenty of details for the RAIB to resolve.

 

[Esker-pades]

The pictures show the rear power car and the rear most coach upright, although the coach appears to have at least partially left the road

Very specifically, was that rear power car the one facing 'up'?

 

[RPI]

For clarification;

A member of public reported the incident to police Scotland, taking reference from the app ‘WHAT THREE WORDS’ at around 0945, with the 3rd member of traincrew walking to the signal box and arriving there around 1030.

The train had indeed performed a WDM but was travelling in the correct line. The departure time from the origin station is not relevant to the incident.

Funny you should say that, as I work on trains but don't sign any routes, I've often wondered whether in a situation like this and I was the only member of staff not incapacitated, would the signaller know what I was on about if I used What Three Words

 

[Midnight Express]

Absolute rubbish churned out by the BBC

"On the Radio 2 news at 17.00 they said that "the driver was searching for another way through""

Ye Gods!

That's up there with the Daily Mail reporting on the Grayrigg accident that 'The driver battled to keep his train on the rails'.
And let's not forget the Guardian: "Grayrigg 'hero' driver tells of making mobile calls with broken neck". I would have used a phone for this purpose.

 

[pompeyfan]

Funny you should say that, as I work on trains but don't sign any routes, I've often wondered whether in a situation like this and I was the only member of staff not incapacitated, would the signaller know what I was on about if I used What Three Words

The signaller would need to download What Three Words themselves, and I would assume that rules dictate signallers are supposed to have their mobile phones off but I’m not certain, but in an emergency it’s certainly one way of getting location information to response staff.

 

[DB]

The pictures show the rear power car and the rear most coach upright, although the coach appears to have at least partially left the road

And one of the other coaches is partially underneth it.

The upright coach is the first class one.

 

[Swanny200]

In the scheme of things it was not overly long when you think of the seriousness of the incident, terminated at Carmont, would have waited a while, whilst decisions are made, then it ran back at reduced speed to Stonehaven crossed back right road, however as both Guard and Driver were sadly part of the fatalities, and it seems the mobile signal is not the best there, whilst Signallers knew the train was overdue, I assume there was not a lot they could do for a while ?

i.e: with no mobile signal I would assume no communication with the signaller, even with the train being overdue as a signaller you would think that maybe they were going slow just in case there were other obstructions, or had stopped and you would hear from them when they get to a signal phone. There would be a stop put on other trains in the area especially after the Network Rail video saying that trains were cancelled between Aberdeen and Dundee most trains that were already on that route would have been terminated at their next station I would assume.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Funny you should say that, as I work on trains but don't sign any routes, I've often wondered whether in a situation like this and I was the only member of staff not incapacitated, would the signaller know what I was on about if I used What Three Words

If you were calling from an SPT they'd ask you for the signal number which is on a plate on the signal, and I guess about how long you'd walked.

 

[RPI]

If you were calling from an SPT they'd ask you for the signal number which is on a plate on the signal, and I guess about how long you'd walked.

I was thinking when using a mobile, a lot of routes I work on have very few signals! Anyway, we digress

 

[43066]

And would it be locked ?

It wouldn’t be locked but, as others have said, there’s zero chance your average person is going to know SPTs even exist.