UK face coverings discussion

[greyman42]

Our PM seems to think that following whatever Sturgeon and Khan demand is some sort of sensible political strategy. Does he understand anything about the people who voted for him?

No i don't think he does and chickens will eventually come home to roost.

 

[MikeWM]

Could you add a link to, and quote from, any of the media outlets you read this please?

It's getting harder to find good links, as even the Guardian is requiring registration to read many of its articles now.

Here's one with a misleading headline

https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/coronavirus-latest-figures-suggest-r-number-is-above-1-0/

The Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) said it "does not have confidence that R is currently below 1.0 in England".

Of course, not having confidence that it isn't *below* 1 doesn't entirely 'suggest' it is *above* 1, despite the headline.

But in any event, SAGE seem to be saying it has gone up.

But haven't some sections of the media claimed R is above one on numerous occasions in the past month anyway?!

It does seem to be a regular event.

Reopening of soft play areas and one or two other minor things. But the idea that masks are going to make a large difference seems fanciful; if masks are such a good solution, why are France and Spain seeing an uptick while Sweden is doing much better?

Indeed. Or Italy. Poland. Argentina. Peru. California. Hawaii. Loads of examples.

 

[scotrail158713]

Yes. People have, by and large, completely given up distancing.

Have they? Or is it that masks are mandatory in places where distancing is harder?
Because that’s, IMO, the very point in having masks - to reduce the risk in areas where distancing isn’t possible.

 

[yorkie]

Has anything substantive changed in the last month other than masks?

Yes. People have, by and large, completely given up distancing.

There has been no changed that I've observed in the last months.

Any change in this area occurred several months ago now!

...Or is it that masks are mandatory in places where distancing is harder?
Because that’s, IMO, the very point in having masks - to reduce the risk in areas where distancing isn’t possible.

Indeed

https://www.who.int/emergencies/dis...wers-hub/q-a-detail/q-a-on-covid-19-and-masks

for areas of widespread transmission, with limited capacity for implementing control measures and especially in settings where physical distancing of at least 1 metre is not possible – such as on public transport, in shops or in other confined or crowded environments – WHO advises governments to encourage the general public to use non-medical fabric masks.

 

[bramling]

There has been no changed that I've observed in the last months.

Any change in this area occurred several months ago now!

What has perhaps changed is people are now more and more worn down by all this. There’s a subset of people I think who have largely given up on the whole thing and are quite happy simply to take their chances.

However for every one of those there seems to be one who remains completely self-terrified.

 

[westv]

Have they? Or is it that masks are mandatory in places where distancing is harder?
Because that’s, IMO, the very point in having masks - to reduce the risk in areas where distancing isn’t possible.

Yet you read other advice and it advises masks need to be used in conjunction with "social distancing".

 

[yorkie]

Yet you read other advice and it advises masks need to be used in conjunction with "social distancing".

In the UK we seem to prefer a "belt and braces" approach, but with no regard for peoples' mental and physical well-being and the livelihoods of many....

Things are going too far; it's madness.

 

[talldave]

What has perhaps changed is people are now more and more worn down by all this. There’s a subset of people I think who have largely given up on the whole thing and are quite happy simply to take their chances.

However for every one of those there seems to be one who remains completely self-terrified.

Well look at the facts, half of deaths were in care homes. Apparently 12-25% (vague eh) of infections occurred in hospitals. So if you're only nipping to Tesco, you're really going to struggle to die from it.

 

[kez19]

No i don't think he does and chickens will eventually come home to roost.

I think its a bit opposite, he probably had these plans set out but chose not too, but letting Sturgeon (example) do it, it wouldn't surprise me to an extent if half of these ideas are straight from UK Government than Scottish Government, yet I agree it seems more Sturgeon gets appraisal by the world's media and Johnson gets a kick in (as I say karma....), I can see it going all wrong for Sturgeon at some point but she'll blame Westminster anyway (and so much the public/media will take then turn on her as they as doing at the minute on Boris...)

 

[trebor79]

What a lovely dystopian world. If you have a child who becomes severely distressed by having their face covered, you have to write to the school and make a formal request for them not to be caused severe distress. All for basically zero benefit because the kids they're interacting with in the corridor are the same ones as in the classrooms and outside of sschool masks don't prevent transmission of coronavirus, and the kids are unlikely to be infected in the first place. They just "make people feel safer", at least in the bizarre world our leaders inhabit.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a lovely dystopian world.

It's the standard school world that is the case in every school and has been for years. If there's a reason why a child should be exempted from a school rule, whatever that school rule is, the parent writes (or emails these days) and requests the exemption. It's how schools work and they have done for ages.

Fixed that for you.

False.

I would accept it if you said "I believe on the balance of probabilities that masks do not prevent the transmission of COVID19", but to state that they do not outright is a falsehood. The evidence both ways is mixed; I choose to believe they are worth it, you choose not.

 

[trebor79]

False.

I would accept it if you said "I believe on the balance of probabilities that masks do not prevent the transmission of COVID19", but to state that they do not outright is a falsehood. The evidence both ways is mixed; I choose to believe they are worth it, you choose not.

No more false than you taking every opportunity to state that "my mask protects you, your mask protects me" without pointing out that it is simply your belief.
I'm a scientist. There is no compelling evidence that face coverings have any measurable impact upon reducing transmission. Therefore they do not reduce transmission.

Perhaps you should change your mantra to "In my opinion, based upon very mixed evidence I believe that my mask protects you and your mask protects me".

 

[joncombe]

And now Labour jumping on the bandwagon. See here [BBC]. To quote

Labour has called for face coverings to be used in communal areas of secondary schools in England.

Shadow education secretary Kate Green said: "There is a growing body of evidence that the use of face masks in communal areas in secondary schools helps protect students and staff and drive down transmission.

"The prime minister must listen to this evidence and act quickly to give certainty to parents and teachers who are just days away from schools reopening."

No sign of asking for "clarity" though it's changed to asking for "certainty", so I was wrong about that.

Sadly this is following the same pattern we've seen before.

The BBC pushing for something, Nicola Sturgeon making it compulsory in Scotland, Wales following suit, Sadiq Khan and Labour also calling for it followed bhy Boris caving in. Then onto the next target (probably at all times in schools or work places ... eventually followed by whenever you leave home). It all seems so inevitable and depressing now, and I hate it.

 

[big_rig]

It's getting harder to find good links, as even the Guardian is requiring registration to read many of its articles now.

Here's one with a misleading headline

https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/coronavirus-latest-figures-suggest-r-number-is-above-1-0/


Of course, not having confidence that it isn't *below* 1 doesn't entirely 'suggest' it is *above* 1, despite the headline.

But in any event, SAGE seem to be saying it has gone up.



It does seem to be a regular event.



Indeed. Or Italy. Poland. Argentina. Peru. California. Hawaii. Loads of examples.

I did not know much about Argentina's response so looked it up on google. They have been in a continuous lockdown since March. According to the Oxford University 'response stringency index' it looks like this has been the toughest lockdown of essentially anywhere in the world over that entire period (barring a few weeks when New Zealand overtook them, but for the month of April that Argentina 'scored' 100/100 which evens things out..). Despite this their cases have gone up seemingly steadily the whole time. I would ask why we don't hear more in the news about them but I guess we already know the answer to that..

 

[Huntergreed]

And now Labour jumping on the bandwagon. See here [BBC]. To quote



No sign of asking for "clarity" though it's changed to asking for "certainty", so I was wrong about that.

Sadly this is following the same pattern we've seen before.

The BBC pushing for something, Nicola Sturgeon making it compulsory in Scotland, Wales following suit, Sadiq Khan and Labour also calling for it followed bhy Boris caving in. Then onto the next target (probably at all times in schools or work places ... eventually followed by whenever you leave home). It all seems so inevitable and depressing now, and I hate it.

It really, really annoys me that both sides of parliament are so pro-restriction.

If I was in opposition, I would be questioning these restrictions, asking if they're really necessary, and pushing for the absolute minimum level of restrictions, both sides seem to be pushing for more and more restrictions.

 

[Andyh82]

The BBC pushing for something, Nicola Sturgeon making it compulsory in Scotland, Wales following suit, Sadiq Khan and Labour also calling for it followed bhy Boris caving in. Then onto the next target (probably at all times in schools or work places ... eventually followed by whenever you leave home). It all seems so inevitable and depressing now, and I hate it.

and then when he caves in, its followed up by 'embarrassing U turn', 'how will it be policed' and 'does it actually reduce the spread' followed by one of those scientific reports that says it doesn't. None of which was taken into consideration 24 hours previously when everyone was demanding it.

 

[MikeWM]

And now Labour jumping on the bandwagon.

Yep; this is apparently 'opposition' The simple fact is that politicians don't care what nonsense we're subjected to - or our children - in order that they can make a cheap political point.

(I think now may be a good time to answer the questionnaire about why I didn't renew my Labour Party membership this year!)

I'd be fascinated to see the 'growing body of evidence' she refers to. And I'm not counting the conveniently timed intervention from the WHO, as we know it is likely they've caved to political pressure rather than evidence before.

 

[kez19]

and then when he caves in, its followed up by 'embarrassing U turn', 'how will it be policed' and 'does it actually reduce the spread' followed by one of those scientific reports that says it doesn't. None of which was taken into consideration 24 hours previously when everyone was demanding it.

Nailed it...

 

[joncombe]

and then when he caves in, its followed up by 'embarrassing U turn', 'how will it be policed' and 'does it actually reduce the spread' followed by one of those scientific reports that says it doesn't. None of which was taken into consideration 24 hours previously when everyone was demanding it.

Oh yes sorry I forgot that bit. And of course it wasn't a U-turn when Nicola Sturgeon originally said back in June she wanted "normal schooling back" from the start of term and then later decided to mandate masks.

 

[kez19]

It really, really annoys me that both sides of parliament are so pro-restriction.

If I was in opposition, I would be questioning these restrictions, asking if they're really necessary, and pushing for the absolute minimum level of restrictions, both sides seem to be pushing for more and more restrictions.

I think opposition parties are batting for the same team, but lets say in either a few months or so they'll turn the tables and claim they never said such things, maybe its just me but I am guessing there is a pattern going on here as its clear as day that (saying this from up north) but both UK/Scottish Governments opposition parties are pretty much in it together.. I agree that there should be criticism but it doesn't seem like they aren't bothered (same with media).

Oh yes sorry I forgot that bit. And of course it wasn't a U-turn when Nicola Sturgeon originally said back in June she wanted "normal schooling back" from the start of term and then later decided to mandate masks.

Yet her approach was "blended" learning to then turning it back onto full time education (I wonder why?), politicians are flip/flopping on everything and I doubt its anything to do with science its more of their own self belief/ego.

I wouldn't mind evidence being provided in briefings (I may let Boris get away with that to an extent) but with Sturgeon like today a question was asked and she said i'll present the evidence (soon) the words to that extent but then its totally forgotten swept under.

 

[py_megapixel]

It's the standard school world that is the case in every school and has been for years. If there's a reason why a child should be exempted from a school rule, whatever that school rule is, the parent writes (or emails these days) and requests the exemption. It's how schools work and they have done for ages.

I'm aware of that. The problem is that these are entirely different circumstances.

In general new school rules will be communicated to parents weeks or months in advance. Not a few days.
Also, there are few school rules that result in the level of discomfort that having to wear a mask all the time does.

 

[Mag_seven]

And now Labour jumping on the bandwagon. See here [BBC]. To quote

Labour has called for face coverings to be used in communal areas of secondary schools in England.

Shadow education secretary Kate Green said: "There is a growing body of evidence that the use of face masks in communal areas in secondary schools helps protect students and staff and drive down transmission.

"The prime minister must listen to this evidence and act quickly to give certainty to parents and teachers who are just days away from schools reopening."

No sign of asking for "clarity" though it's changed to asking for "certainty", so I was wrong about that.

Sadly this is following the same pattern we've seen before.

The BBC pushing for something, Nicola Sturgeon making it compulsory in Scotland, Wales following suit, Sadiq Khan and Labour also calling for it followed bhy Boris caving in. Then onto the next target (probably at all times in schools or work places ... eventually followed by whenever you leave home). It all seems so inevitable and depressing now, and I hate it.

I suggest she therefore needs to provide this "growing body of evidence" then. And it had better be in the form of peer reviewed scientific papers not just the opinions of "alternative SAGE" self publicists.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

The Deputy FM/Scottish Education Sec, John Swinney, is also claiming that "there is increasing evidence that face coverings can provide some protection for the wearer as well as those around them". Where is this evidence?

He has also said that "In situations where there is a local cluster, use of face coverings throughout the day may be required" - poor kids.

 

[Bantamzen]

and then when he caves in, its followed up by 'embarrassing U turn', 'how will it be policed' and 'does it actually reduce the spread' followed by one of those scientific reports that says it doesn't. None of which was taken into consideration 24 hours previously when everyone was demanding it.

And when all that is done, and it still doesn't stop the virus & people start to rebel they have their ready made scapegoats in position....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, there are few school rules that result in the level of discomfort that having to wear a mask all the time does.

Personally, I find wearing a tie and wearing a jacket indoors (the former because I hate things pressing on my neck, the latter because I will be far too hot) to be uncomfortable. Both of those are rules at various schools.

 

[Bantamzen]

Personally, I find wearing a tie and wearing a jacket indoors (the former because I hate things pressing on my neck, the latter because I will be far too hot) to be uncomfortable. Both of those are rules at various schools.

In both schools and offices people are often allowed to take them off if they become uncomfortable, say because its too warm. Will that be allowed of masks?

 

[Huntergreed]

I both schools and offices people are often allowed to take them off if they become uncomfortable, say because its too warm. Will that be allowed of masks?

Presumably, as they (are supposed to) stop transmission, not.

 

[greyman42]

What has perhaps changed is people are now more and more worn down by all this. There’s a subset of people I think who have largely given up on the whole thing and are quite happy simply to take their chances.

However for every one of those there seems to be one who remains completely self-terrified.

I think this was the case months ago.

 

[MDB1images]

Like.

Schools should be providing necessary ways for students and staff to wash hands when moving from point to point. Therefore, removing masks shouldn’t be a problem.

I recognise, however, that policing the correct form of donning and doffing masks could be rather problematic though.

Agree totally.
For this to happen correctly then they most provide ample facilities in schools to access wash areas to cleanse hands before putting on masks and after taking them off - and allow time for it in the school day.
The question would have to be who pays for it, polices it and the most important is responsible for it all if it fails and our old friend 'the Ambulance chasers' turn up chasing a claim(it's only a matter of time before these jump on the gravy train)

Masks must become free for all children so schools would need to provide a uniformed mask so the poor children don't get singled out and have a robust system for those with exceptions so they don't get isolated.

That said I feel incredibly sorry for our youngsters as clearly the Virus in the UK is now totally political and sadly the UK has no leaders in charge of any party who are grown up to say 'enough' and realise that all this has become silly 'point scoring' political posturing driven by a discredited media of 'opinon piece' journalists who are a disgrace to that profession.

Sadly our youth will pay for the poor decisions for generations, decisions made by and demanded by this collective of incompetent clowns of all political parties.

 

[trebor79]

And now Labour jumping on the bandwagon. See here [BBC]. To quote



No sign of asking for "clarity" though it's changed to asking for "certainty", so I was wrong about that.

Sadly this is following the same pattern we've seen before.

The BBC pushing for something, Nicola Sturgeon making it compulsory in Scotland, Wales following suit, Sadiq Khan and Labour also calling for it followed bhy Boris caving in. Then onto the next target (probably at all times in schools or work places ... eventually followed by whenever you leave home). It all seems so inevitable and depressing now, and I hate it.

I'm sick of hearing politicians and media use terms like "growing body of evidence" "increasing evidence" when what they mean is they have seen social media pressure groups demanding they implement X.