UK face coverings discussion

[RomeoCharlie71]

I'm sick of hearing politicians and media use terms like "growing body of evidence" "increasing evidence" when what they mean is they have seen social media pressure groups demanding they implement X.

Indeed. I'm still waiting for proof of the "increasing evidence that face coverings can provide some protection for the wearer", that both Scotland's Chief Nursing Officer (Fiona McQueen) and Deputy FM (John Swinney) have referred to lately.

 

[jtuk]

Their only MP - Caroline Lucas - supports the totally bonkers 'zero-Covid' strategy that Layla Morgan is pushing! I've voted Green before when I was fed up with Labour, but that sure won't be happening again anytime soon.

It is a shame, I'm very much in the sick to death of Labour and Tory camp and want an alternative, the Greens would work for me assuming they'd accepted they've lost the EU argument, but when the only politician of theirs I could name comes out with this abject nonsense I'm probably back to spoiling the ballot paper again unless we get a Macron-esque new thing from nowhere

 

[greyman42]

That said I feel incredibly sorry for our youngsters as clearly the Virus in the UK is now totally political and sadly the UK has no leaders in charge of any party who are grown up to say 'enough' and realise that all this has become silly 'point scoring' political posturing driven by a discredited media of 'opinon piece' journalists who are a disgrace to that profession.

This sums things up perfectly. Spot on.

 

[bramling]

This sums things up perfectly. Spot on.

One small point of order, it's not just "youngsters", it's messing around with a lot of people in the middle group as well.

Realistically this is having major impacts on many people in all working age groups, plus of course those affected by the exams fiasco. I think most are in the same boat with this, albeit the specific effects may vary from age group to age group. Even those happily enjoying discount dining paid for by furlough are likely to experience an extremely sharp awakening at some point.

I am increasingly coming to the view that shielding the extremely vulnerable is the only realistic way to get through this, especially now we're seeing more and more data suggesting that younger / healthy people are unlikely to suffer serious effects (though I remain of the view that we do urgently need to understand more about any potential long-term consequences).

 

[farleigh]

The proposal to introduce compulsory facemasks in schools will cause more damage than good IMO. It will create an extra level of challenge at a time when it is least needed.

It is absolutely not normal for children to be wearing masks in order to protect adults. It is absurd.

 

[py_megapixel]

I'm fairly neutral on face coverings in shops and on public transport. Sure, I'd prefer not to wear them, but whatever, no big deal. Plus in the 21st century it's entirely possible to live one's life without ever going into a shop.

However, when it comes to something that kids are required to do and generally find anything from a bit annoying to extremely stressful (go to school) then making them wear masks for a significant proportion of the time they spend doing it is only going to add an extra layer of stress and make school particularly unpleasant for them. In other words, it's simply unfair.

 

[Bayum]

Indeed. I'm still waiting for proof of the "increasing evidence that face coverings can provide some protection for the wearer", that both Scotland's Chief Nursing Officer (Fiona McQueen) and Deputy FM (John Swinney) have referred to lately.

I’m waiting for proof that asking the public to wear masks is in fact problematic and likely to increase transmission rates of Covid as some have said.

 

[py_megapixel]

I’m waiting for proof that asking the public to wear masks is in fact problematic and likely to increase transmission rates of Covid as some have said.

I don't think anyone has said that. What people are saying is that the discomfort of mask wearing outweighs the possible benefits.

I don't agree with that in shops (which people have no obligation to visit anyway) or on public transport. But I draw the line at schools.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't think anyone has said that. What people are saying is that the discomfort of mask wearing outweighs the possible benefits.

What discomfort? I forget I'm wearing mine after 30 seconds. Just buy a decent one.

 

[py_megapixel]

What discomfort? I forget I'm wearing mine after 30 seconds. Just buy a decent one.

If the government wants me to wear a decent face mask it can buy one for me and have it posted to me.

I find that I get uncomfortably hot wearing a face mask for an extended period. (It's fine for up to 20 minutes ish but any longer and it starts to get uncomfortable)

 

[Ianno87]

If the government wants me to wear a decent face mask it can buy one for me and have it posted to me.

I find that I get uncomfortably hot wearing a face mask for an extended period. (It's fine for up to 20 minutes ish but any longer and it starts to get uncomfortable)

Do you expect the government to pay for all the other clothing you own? You'd get arrested if you went into a shop not wearing anything at all so that is arguably "government mandated".

 

[Darandio]

I don't think anyone has said that.

Haven't they? It's repeated nearly daily in this thread.

 

[farleigh]

I’m waiting for proof that asking the public to wear masks is in fact problematic and likely to increase transmission rates of Covid as some have said.

You are happy to wear something that has zero proven benefit just because you have been told to do it.

That is of course your choice, but you shouldn't be surprised that many people disagree with you.

Wearing something because it has not been proven not to work seems unconvincing to me.

 

[py_megapixel]

Do you expect the government to pay for all the other clothing you own? You'd get arrested if you went into a shop not wearing anything at all so that is arguably "government mandated".

That was a hyperbole. What I mean is that if the government is going to make the argument that "if you wear a good face mask it's not uncomfortable" as a justification for making everyone wear a mask, then they can't complain when people who can't afford or can't find a good quality mask complain about it being uncomfortable.

It doesn't help that they are basically all one-size-fits-all so they'll only fit an average sized person perfectly.

Haven't they? It's repeated nearly daily in this thread.

This thread moves rather fast. It's a little tricky to keep up with the whole thing, but now you say that I've gone through and discovered that yes, people are saying that. So I'll edit my original post.

 

[trebor79]

Indeed. I'm still waiting for proof of the "increasing evidence that face coverings can provide some protection for the wearer", that both Scotland's Chief Nursing Officer (Fiona McQueen) and Deputy FM (John Swinney) have referred to lately.

That's a line they trot out to try and convince more people to wear "there's something in it for you too".
If you stop and think for a moment, it's clearly nonsense. If covid carrying droplets land on your fabric covering, they will soak into said fabric and then be nestled right up against your lips and nose. Just where you don't want those pesky virions.

But, hey, it makes people feel safe. So then they forget about physical distancing because the magic mask will protect them...

Why does nobody call them out on this dangerous nonsense?

 

[Bayum]

I don't think anyone has said that. What people are saying is that the discomfort of mask wearing outweighs the possible benefits.

I don't agree with that in shops (which people have no obligation to visit anyway) or on public transport. But I draw the line at schools.

Oh they definitely have. They absolutely have. In fact, someone has jumped on Jenny Harries’s statements earlier in the year as defence of why we should not be wearing masks.

 

[bramling]

someone has jumped on Jenny Harries’s statements earlier in the year as defence of why we should not be wearing masks.

Is it unreasonable for that to have happened?

When one hears someone in her capacity giving clearly understandable reasons why using masks may have negative consequences then it's hardly surprising people take that on board.

Especially when at the same time we heard Mr Van Tam making is very clear that he was strongly of the opinion that masks deliver little or no benefit.

You can hardly blame people for having concerns carrying out a measure that appears to have risks of negative consequences whilst at the same time apparently delivering little benefit, especially when we spent the first half of the year making a big effort to change behaviour to avoid touching the face with hands (which for humans is something that's incredibly difficult to do as it's such a natural thing).

I'm not overly happy about some of the "civil liberties" aspects of mask use, but I'd be content to put that all to one side if it were a genuine shot to nothing as a means of trying to suppress Covid. However it seems quite clear that is *isn''t* a shot to nothing, there's clearly a number of potential negative consequences to mask use, not least the quite serious risk of contracting Covid (or something else) via a mask when one wouldn't otherwise have done so. I'm afraid that tips the balance for me, and when we look at the record of this government and some of the individual politicians you'll forgive me for trusting my own judgement!

 

[Yew]

I'm sick of hearing politicians and media use terms like "growing body of evidence" "increasing evidence" when what they mean is they have seen social media pressure groups demanding they implement X.

There is a growing body of evidence that people are getting fed up of politicians using the phrase "there is a growing body of evidence" without then presenting said evidence.

 

[mawallace]

My local sports center has now said you need to wear the coverings when you are in the sports center , unless you are exercising! that's going beyond Government guidance and the law. I think it's maddening how people have got on the bandwagon.

now I go to swim - so it also says go 'beach ready'!

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Boris Johnson makes U-turn and abandons face masks advice for secondary schools

The government announces the policy shift for England after Scottish pupils were told to wear face coverings in corridors.

news.sky.com

Boris Johnson has abandoned advice that pupils should not wear face masks in English secondary schools.

The prime minister performed his latest U-turn in the face of growing pressure from headteachers, teaching unions and medical experts.

Face coverings will be mandatory for children in all schools that lie in areas subject to stricter coronavirus restrictions.

But while headteachers will retain discretion over the use of face masks in schools in other parts of England, the government will drop guidance that they should not be used.

It comes after the Welsh government announced it was to review whether children should wear face coverings in schools after Scottish pupils were told to put on masks in corridors.

Only took less than 12 hours.

 

[bramling]

Boris Johnson makes U-turn and abandons face masks advice for secondary schools

The government announces the policy shift for England after Scottish pupils were told to wear face coverings in corridors.

news.sky.com

Only took less than 12 hours.

This is becoming utter madness from Johnson. I thought we elected a leader, i.e. someone who *leads*. He seems utterly incapable of making a decision and being able to justify and stand by it.

We can't go on like this - he needs to go.

 

[Bayum]

Is it unreasonable for that to have happened?

I mean, if you responded to this keeping the context in mind, you'll understand why I said this.

It isn't unreasonable for Dr Harries to have given this advice, but my point was I'm yet to see anything that suggests the wearing of face masks has given any rise to COVID diagnoses in the wider population.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

This is becoming utter madness from Johnson. I thought we elected a leader, i.e. someone who *leads*. He seems utterly incapable of making a decision and being able to justify and stand by it.

We can't go on like this - he needs to go.

Agreed. Whilst I don't support every decision that Sturgeon has made, she has shown dedicated leadership throughout the pandemic and has been crystal clear with her messaging (despite the u-turn on exam results and the care home debacle). I'm not following the decisions made in Wales so can't comment on Drakeford.

Bozza on the other hand, relies on the media and Twitter to inform the public, and lets the unions, media and vocal minority make the decisions.

 

[joncombe]

We can't go on like this - he needs to go.

I agree. All that seems to happen is he announces something (like face coverings won't be mandatory in schools), then Sturgeon announces she will do the opposite, then the Welsh Government does the same, the mayor of London also says he agrees with Sturgeon, Labour then demand "clarity" and then Boris does a U-turn. Repeat, again and again. That's not leadership and it feels that the opposition are deciding Government policy as Boris will always give in to their demands - which is very odd given he has a huge majority, but we've seen it again and again and in exactly the same order!

 

[bramling]

I mean, if you responded to this keeping the context in mind, you'll understand why I said this.

It isn't unreasonable for Dr Harries to have given this advice, but my point was I'm yet to see anything that suggests the wearing of face masks has given any rise to COVID diagnoses in the wider population.

But, by the same token, we've seen nothing which concludes that it *isn't*. In the absence of being able to trust Johnson's judgement (does *anyone* now?) then we all are left with having to weigh up the benefits and risks in our own minds and form a judgement.

Certainly what Harries in particular said does make a lot of sense, and is borne out by the amount of improper mask use that is plain to see all around.

I agree. All that seems to happen is he announces something (like face coverings won't be mandatory in schools), then Sturgeon announces she will do the opposite, then the Welsh Government does the same, the mayor of London also says he agrees with Sturgeon, Labour then demand "clarity" and then Boris does a U-turn. Repeat, again and again. That's not leadership and it feels that the opposition are deciding Government policy as Boris will always give in to their demands - which is very odd given he has a huge majority, but we've seen it again and again and in exactly the same order!

I suppose we could say this is a problem gifted by Tony Blair, as this situation with the devolved institutions (including London in this) is farcical, and putting political allegiances aside it's really not serving Britain well. I'd except Northern Ireland from that as naturally they may well need to have some variations in order to align themselves with RofI if necessary.

However we are we are, and Boris just doesn't seem able to stand up for his position.

There's a certain oddness with it all. Part of the reason Boris seems to capitulate is because many in England perhaps appear to align themselves more with the positions in Scotland and Wales, whether this is *actually* many people or just a vocal minority is less clear. It then becomes too politically difficult for Boris not to capitulate as he seems frightened of his own shadow. This seems to indicate simply that people in England have completely lost all confidence in his ability to manage this (whether they had that in the first place is perhaps up for debate!). If that's so then this is a matter of serious concern going forward, as being Prime Minister he needs to have the confidence of the population and be able to be trusted to make competent decisions - and that just doesn't seem to be the case at the moment.

 

[MikeWM]

A ridiculous, weak and offensive decision, made in the most pathetic and humiliating way possible.

Just how much lower can we go?

 

[Bayum]

But, by the same token, we've seen nothing which concludes that it *isn't*. In the absence of being able to trust Johnson's judgement (does *anyone* now?) then we all are left with having to weigh up the benefits and risks in our own minds and form a judgement.

I mean, have we seen huge spikes in cases as was feared when shops etc would reopen? In some areas where we know social distancing was adhered to, but on the whole, we seem to be absolutely fine?

 

[Bantamzen]

I’m waiting for proof that asking the public to wear masks is in fact problematic and likely to increase transmission rates of Covid as some have said.

How about procedures in hospitals where there are strict protocols for wearing masks to protect patients? Would that be good enough for you to at least accept the possibility that incorrect use of masks could potentially lead to more spread via contact?

 

[trebor79]

This is becoming utter madness from Johnson. I thought we elected a leader, i.e. someone who *leads*. He seems utterly incapable of making a decision and being able to justify and stand by it.

We can't go on like this - he needs to go.

No, we elected a buffoon, proven liar and someone who doesn't do detail. Just desserts.

A ridiculous, weak and offensive decision, made in the most pathetic and humiliating way possible.

Just how much lower can we go?

Agree. I suspect things will get an awful lot worse before they get better.

 

[Huntergreed]

Agree. I suspect things will get an awful lot worse before they get better.

I hope not, but as the majority of the public are currently pro-restriction, I can see this being likely