Rural line reopenings - which one?

[RichJF]

Uckfield - Lewes with Oxted - Lewes electrified at 750v dc & doubled throughout.
Vital diversionary route for the Brighton Mainline that physically cannot be quadrupled. It also gives more capacity into London from a very congested SE railway network.

 

[Meerkat]

Uckfield - Lewes with Oxted - Lewes electrified at 750v dc & doubled throughout.
Vital diversionary route for the Brighton Mainline that physically cannot be quadrupled. It also gives more capacity into London from a very congested SE railway network.

Why can’t the Brighton line be physically quadrupled? Expensive and controversial but I don’t see why it would be physically impossible.
There is already a diversion via Horsham anyway

 

[A0wen]

Uckfield - Lewes with Oxted - Lewes electrified at 750v dc & doubled throughout.

Vital diversionary route for the Brighton Mainline that physically cannot be quadrupled.

Always love this "vital diversionary route" card - how many times in the last 5 years has the BML been closed to through traffic ?

It also gives more capacity into London from a very congested SE railway network.

Except it doesn't - because all those trains would then come together with those from East Grinstead at Hurst Green and with the Brighton line at Croydon - already congested, so no real capacity to increase the number of trains to/from London.

 

[yorksrob]

Always love this "vital diversionary route" card - how many times in the last 5 years has the BML been closed to through traffic ?



Except it doesn't - because all those trains would then come together with those from East Grinstead at Hurst Green and with the Brighton line at Croydon - already congested, so no real capacity to increase the number of trains to/from London.

There seems to be a landslip or major engineering works shutting it nearly every year now.

 

[willgreen]

Except it doesn't - because all those trains would then come together with those from East Grinstead at Hurst Green and with the Brighton line at Croydon - already congested, so no real capacity to increase the number of trains to/from London.

Agree with most of what you've said, although the Croydon remodelling (CARS if I remember correctly) *might* sort that bottleneck out, allowing Uckfield-Lewes to become an alternative route. Post-Covid I imagine much of this is academic anyway.

 

[A0wen]

There seems to be a landslip or major engineering works shutting it nearly every year now.

"Major" engineering works can be applied to pretty much every mainline - that's the nature of running a high speed railway, it needs maintenance. Question is how many times is it closed a year for such works - and if it's 2 or 3 weekends a year then it really doesn't justify re-opening other lines on the basis of diversion potential.

So rather than making your usual hyperbolic statements, how about conjuring up some facts which demonstrate the number of days in the last 5 years that the BML was closed to through traffic ?

 

[yorksrob]

"Major" engineering works can be applied to pretty much every mainline - that's the nature of running a high speed railway, it needs maintenance. Question is how many times is it closed a year for such works - and if it's 2 or 3 weekends a year then it really doesn't justify re-opening other lines on the basis of diversion potential.

So rather than making your usual hyperbolic statements, how about conjuring up some facts which demonstrate the number of days in the last 5 years that the BML was closed to through traffic ?

A quick search suggests there was:

• A closure january this year
• Flooding closing the line December 2019
• A nine day closure last year, along with 15 weekends,
• closures in February and March 2018
• A lineside fire stopping the line in June 2017
• Bank holiday engineering work closing the route in 2016
• Elecrical faults shutting the line in 2016
• Line closed due to flooding, February 2014

There were probably others

 

[RichJF]

A quick search suggests there was:

• A closure january this year
• Flooding closing the line December 2019
• A nine day closure last year, along with 15 weekends,
• closures in February and March 2018
• A lineside fire stopping the line in June 2017
• Bank holiday engineering work closing the route in 2016
• Elecrical faults shutting the line in 2016
• Line closed due to flooding, February 2014

There were probably others

"Major" engineering works can be applied to pretty much every mainline - that's the nature of running a high speed railway, it needs maintenance. Question is how many times is it closed a year for such works - and if it's 2 or 3 weekends a year then it really doesn't justify re-opening other lines on the basis of diversion potential.

So rather than making your usual hyperbolic statements, how about conjuring up some facts which demonstrate the number of days in the last 5 years that the BML was closed to through traffic ?

I used to commute on the BML into London. At one point during early 2016, there was a fatality, engineering or infrastructure problem getting on for once a week causing large disruption! Trains had to divert & reverse via Lewes and the Arun Valley.

The diversionary route via Horsham entails travelling a long way west to Littlehampton and a complete reversal of the train. Going via Uckfield negates the need for train reversals & each time a fatality or infrastructure related problem occurs the train can still reach Brighton. It's also about the future growth when the current BML is at capacity/pathing and giving the rapidly towns (Uckfield, Heathfield, Crowborough) of East Sussex a better public transport link.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I would reopen Harrogate - Ripon - Northallerton. This would be handy for Leeds commuters (from North Yorkshire), but would also improve connections across the county, and could be used to run direct Middlesbrough - Leeds services which avoid the York and the congested main line.

 

[A0wen]

I used to commute on the BML into London. At one point during early 2016, there was a fatality, engineering or infrastructure problem getting on for once a week causing large disruption! Trains had to divert & reverse via Lewes and the Arun Valley.

The diversionary route via Horsham entails travelling a long way west to Littlehampton and a complete reversal of the train. Going via Uckfield negates the need for train reversals & each time a fatality or infrastructure related problem occurs the train can still reach Brighton. It's also about the future growth when the current BML is at capacity/pathing and giving the rapidly towns (Uckfield, Heathfield, Crowborough) of East Sussex a better public transport link.

Sorry - but fatalities can't be included - that's ridiculous. That's not a case of the line being closed due to an infrastructure maintenance or failing. If you include fatalities in your estimations you'd end up with a diversion route for every route, which is patently ridiculous.

And none of the places you've mentioned are significant - even if they doubled in size they'd still be small towns - Uckfield is 15,000, Crowborough 20,000 - compare that with Haywards Heath and Crawley on the BML or Tunbridge Wells on the Hastings line. Those lines will have the demand for extra trains long before Uckfield. Not sure why you've put Heathfield on there - that was never served by the Uckfield - Lewes line and Heathfield's 9 miles from Uckfield, Crowborough and Etchingham on the Hastings line.

 

[quantinghome]

Much as I spend time in the area and there was an idea to run a line from garsdale to hawes. But honestly running the ancient bus up the dale would be quicker.
also have you walked any of the former permanent way it’s full of rabbit burrows and the missing bridges along the way. Basically it’s ok if there is a money tree somewhere

It's not a serious suggestion; I doubt it will ever happen. But a narrow gauge railway would stand a better chance than standard gauge as it would be cheaper to overcome the issues you rightly identify.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Wouldn’t you want to continue to Carterton? Big place, lots of employment. Possibility of military use (they chuck some big stuff on those cargo planes, though I assume they don’t do trainloads of soldiers for security reasons??)

You can't feasibly re-open to Carterton because the RAF base is on the trackbed; you'd only get as far as the old Brize Norton & Bampton station, which really isn't convenient for Carterton itself. A new alignment would be conceivable, though I suspect harder now that the Brize Meadow estate is going up.

 

[A0wen]

A quick search suggests there was:

• A closure january this year
• Flooding closing the line December 2019
• A nine day closure last year, along with 15 weekends,
• closures in February and March 2018
• A lineside fire stopping the line in June 2017
• Bank holiday engineering work closing the route in 2016
• Elecrical faults shutting the line in 2016
• Line closed due to flooding, February 2014

There were probably others

So even if you add up all of those, chances are you're getting on for 1 months worth of closures out of 60 months. Which means the line is open 98% of the time.....

Lincoln to Woodhall Spa (& Horncastle if I'm allowed to branch), it'll provide a nice replacement to the bus services between Lincoln and Horncastle (purely selfish motive). It has the potential to move commuter flows off the A158 and may help foster population growth in the villages along the former line relieving pressure to build more houses in Hykeham and Saxilby.

I spent a few days on the Lincs coast last week - I'd have perhaps gone for Firsby - Louth. Horncastle - Lincoln might seem attractive, but is unlikely to ever make the grade, not least because Horncastle isn't really a destination.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

My vote would go to the central Devon route.

• It would link Tavistock, Okehampton and central Devon into the rail network
• It would provide greater resilience to the local network in case of works betweem Plymouth and Exeter

Uckfield to Lewes.
In addition to those towns as well as other nearby towns (for example Crowborough) are rapidly expanding.
Reopening this short section would give another route between London and the Sussex Coast. A need magnified when the main Brighton line has been closed for engineering works or incidents.

The Watercress Line, Alresford to Winchester would make sense, it was used as a diversion in steam days
What happens now if the line by Micheldever is blocked?

I would reopen Harrogate - Ripon - Northallerton. This would be handy for Leeds commuters (from North Yorkshire), but would also improve connections across the county, and could be used to run direct Middlesbrough - Leeds services which avoid the York and the congested main line.

There does seem to be something of a common theme here - that some routes might get nearer to washing their faces if as well as being a passenger branch, they also offered a diversionary through route and hence increased the resilience of the network.

 

[yorksrob]

So even if you add up all of those, chances are you're getting on for 1 months worth of closures out of 60 months. Which means the line is open 98% of the time.....

Well, actually those are only the closures to make the news on t'interweb. I suspect there are various routine works that have been going on throughout as well.

The facts to remember are

• that a massive section of the population relies on this line for its link to London and beyond (certainly everything between Brighton and Worthing)
• It runs through dense population, so is going to attract people related disruption. That is not silly to take account of.
• It is a very heavily engineered route with a lot of tunels and deep cuttings. It is inevitably going to require a lot of heavy maintenance.

 

[Bald Rick]

In my experience the Uckfield Line is closed due to disruption more than the Brighton Line....

 

[yorksrob]

In my experience the Uckfield Line is closed due to disruption more than the Brighton Line....

Unless it's at exactly the same times as the BML, it doesn't matter.

 

[cle]

As mentioned on Uckfield-Lewes, the Norwood/Croydon works will help to untangle and potentially identify new paths south.

A second train per hour via Uckfield would be a good contender, this could happily take over a 'Plumpton' service towards Eastbourne (see below on Haywards, but short answer, GatEx). If further demand was there, splitting or connecting shuttles to Oxted/Hurst Green could be explored.

Another beyond post Covid action for Three Bridges, Haywards Heath etc would be to finally kill the Gatwick Express, tweak paths and slots accordingly out of Victoria and through Croydon - and ensure that all four of those tph run to the Coast, all the time. That may allow some consolidation of similar services or diversion to other locations. Gatwick could also terminate some extras from the south, and offer a lot of onward options, in addition to being a destination itself.

 

[swt_passenger]

Trains can run via Andover, Laverstock Loop and Romsey to Southampton and/or Eastleigh?

The majority of passenger services are electric though, and can and regularly do divert via Havant. (Like after last weeks landslip.) Freight and XC generally do the Laverstock route.

You are highly unlikely to justify any reopening based on its diversionary use, as the insiders who post here have mentioned time after time...

 

[yorksrob]

The majority of passenger services are electric though, and can and regularly do divert via Havant. (Like after last weeks landslip.) Freight and XC generally do the Laverstock route.

You are highly unlikely to justify any reopening based on its diversionary use, as the insiders who post here have mentioned time after time...

You won't justify any reopening based solely on diversionary benefits.

What the industry seems to have difficulty doing is combining diversionary benefits with additional journey opportunity benefits.

 

[The Planner]

You won't justify any reopening based solely on diversionary benefits.

What the industry seems to have difficulty doing is combining diversionary benefits with additional journey opportunity benefits.

Because that combination is like comparing a lager to a lager top. The diversionary benefit is the dash of lemonade you aren't likely going to taste.

 

[yorksrob]

Because that combination is like comparing a lager to a lager top. The diversionary benefit is the dash of lemonade you aren't likely going to taste.

But it's still there and substantial enough for some people to order a lager top.

 

[A0wen]

You won't justify any reopening based solely on diversionary benefits.

What the industry seems to have difficulty doing is combining diversionary benefits with additional journey opportunity benefits.

Could it possibly be such "diversionary benefits" don't actually exist, beyond those on these boards who have a visceral dislike of RRBs ?

And claiming a "lager top" has a benefit which is "substantial enough" is probably enough to render your argument worthless......

 

[mmh]

Could it possibly be such "diversionary benefits" don't actually exist, beyond those on these boards who have a visceral dislike of RRBs ?

It's logistically impossible to replace the BML service with buses. That's why whenever it is, the press and these forums are full of horror stories.

And claiming a "lager top" has a benefit which is "substantial enough" is probably enough to render your argument worthless......

As analogies go, it's a truly terrible one. A lager top is a different drink with a different taste to a straight lager. But, to continue with the awful comparison, if a pub has no lemonade some customers will go elsewhere rather than drink something they don't want, just as some passengers won't travel if the train they want doesn't exist but they can have a bus instead.

 

[yorksrob]

Could it possibly be such "diversionary benefits" don't actually exist, beyond those on these boards who have a visceral dislike of RRBs ?

And claiming a "lager top" has a benefit which is "substantial enough" is probably enough to render your argument worthless......

I think you'll find that it's not just enthusiasts on these boards who dislike RRB's. The majority of the travelling public would prefer a diversion to traipsing onto the bus.

And I'm quite parial to a shandy, so I wouldn't at all underestimate the refreshing effect that lemonade can bring to beer.

 

[Meerkat]

I assume diverting via Uckfield would involve putting the locals on RRBs to get enough Brighton trains through?

 

[A0wen]

I assume diverting via Uckfield would involve putting the locals on RRBs to get enough Brighton trains through?

Exactly ! The most you're going to get through Uckfield is 2tph given the contentions at Hurst Green with East Grinstead services. Brighton despatches 8 tph to London, there's no way you're even going to provide half the capacity the BML does as a diversion - so to argue "diversion" benefits when the replacement line simply won't have the capacity is disingenuous. And that's before you deal with the fact of the intermediate stations, which on the BML include the likes of Gatwick Airport and Crawley neither of which are lightly used.

 

[yorksrob]

I assume diverting via Uckfield would involve putting the locals on RRBs to get enough Brighton trains through?

Exactly ! The most you're going to get through Uckfield is 2tph given the contentions at Hurst Green with East Grinstead services. Brighton despatches 8 tph to London, there's no way you're even going to provide half the capacity the BML does as a diversion - so to argue "diversion" benefits when the replacement line simply won't have the capacity is disingenuous. And that's before you deal with the fact of the intermediate stations, which on the BML include the likes of Gatwick Airport and Crawley neither of which are lightly used.

Put it this way.

Tonbridge - Hastings (currently double track with single track sections, feeding into a busier section North of Tunbridge Wells/Tonbridge) is showing three trains within an hour this afternoon.

Assuming they do some double tracking on the rest of the Uckfield line, you could potentially have three trains in an hour on that. If you had one train picking up the intermediate stops, running the other two as twelve carriage services London - Brighton, that might not be the full glory of 8 trains an hour, but it's a substantial crowd buster.

 

[Meerkat]

Assuming they do some double tracking on the rest of the Uckfield line, you could potentially have three trains in an hour on that. If you had one train picking up the intermediate stops, running the other two as twelve carriage services London - Brighton, that might not be the full glory of 8 trains an hour, but it's a substantial crowd buster.

If it can’t take the whole capacity then you still need the RRBs and how do you decide who gets the train?
Anyway, doesn’t this all need moving to an existing thread on the line?

 

[deltic]

Northwich to Sandbach - line already there just needs upgrading

If we are likely to be seeing an increase in domestic tourism then how about the following

Bangor to Caernarfon - fantastic castle and gateway to Snowdonia
Penrith to Keswick - support policy to reduce car traffic in Lake District
Alnmouth to Alnwick - all those Harry Potter fans