Excess Fares Query - Appeal againt Penalty Charge at St Panc

[djh1986]

Hello Everyone,

Been meaning to join for a while but never got round to it. Got into a ruck with two FCC staff last night and I wanted to know if I stood a chance of appeal on the following letter which explains the situation....

I'm mainly so annoyed because of the lack of consistency and leniency. I think FCC were so blasé about it because I don't buy my season ticket through them, but Southern.

To Whom It May Concern,

I am writing to appeal against the penalty charge issued to me at St Pancras Domestic station on the evening of Tuesday 10th August 2010.

I made my regular journey from Portslade to Norwood Junction as always via Brighton and on this occasion, I needed to go past Norwood Junction and on to London to meet a colleague. I arrived at Brighton at 19.18 and intended to board the 19.34 FCC service to Bedford, with the plan to alight at St Pancras. I immediately went to the ticket office at Brighton to purchase a London travelcard for zones 1-4 as I do regularly at many stations using my annual gold card season ticket to receive a discount. I waited 12 minutes in the queue at Brighton and not one person infront of me got served in that time and when one window became free, the ticket officer simply closed his booth despite the queue of at least ten people. Please feel free to check the CCTV at Brighton to verify my claim.

As I had to leave the queue to catch the train to London I intended to purchase a travelcard at St Pancras Domestic excess fares window before the ticket barrier as I do regularly at Victoria and London Bridge when no ticket inspector is available on the train. I have done this at least fifty times within the last twelve months. Upon arrival at St Pancras, the excess fares window was unmanned and had bags and belongings of staff on it. I therefore immediately made my intentions clear to the gate staff at St Pancras that I wanted to purchase a travelcard as an excess fare on top of my season ticket, something I've done on numerous occasions without any problems at all at other London mainline stations. The member of staff, (Name removed) immediately went on the offensive and said he wasn't prepared to sell me a travelcard like at other London stations as I'd breached penalty fare regulations. I then proceeded to give the same defence to both (Name removed) and his colleague (Name removed) but they simply weren't interested and were determined to issue me with a penalty fare. (Name removed) in particular was very unprofessional throughout, texting on her mobile phone whilst dealing with me (again, check the CCTV) and claiming that St Pancras didn't have an excess fares window, despite us standing next to it with its ticket machine and tickets and said that St Pancras has a different policy to excess fares than both London Bridge and Victoria stations. I could have argued my case all evening to them but they weren't interested in logic, consistency or even discretion towards a customer who's annual season ticket costs £2500 a year.

I am therefore appealing against the penalty charge on the following grounds:

1. I attempted to buy a travelcard at Brighton station and I had to wait an unacceptable amount of time to do so and would have missed my train.

2. There was no guard or ticket inspector onboard the train to purchase an extension railcard from.

3. A severe lack of consistency, why can I purchase travelcards from excess fare windows at Victoria and London Bridge but not St Pancras? I could have alighted from the Brighton-Bedford train at London Bridge ten minutes earlier and would have purchased a travelcard without any problems at all, as I have done before.

4. I made my intentions clear to (Name removed) at St Pancras as soon as I alighted, at no point did I even attempt to get through the ticket barriers without a valid ticket.
5. The penalty fare slip is filled out as being from “Brighton to St Pancras,” this is incorrect as the accused offence would only have taken place between East Croydon and St Pancras as my season ticket covers me up to East Croydon

I await your response. I am very annoyed about this, not because of the money but because of the injustice given the inconsistency between members of staff and station ticket offices in London, and the unprofessional nature of the staff at both St Pancras and Brighton.

 

[cuccir]

Sounds to me as if you have a good case, if nothing else because of point 5. You should be able to write to the relevant stations and obtain the CCTV yourself - the sooner the better. My only concern would be whether you should have collected a permit to travel ticket from Brighton - is a machine which issues these available there?

 

[Lampshade]

My only concern would be whether you should have collected a permit to travel ticket from Brighton - is a machine which issues these available there?

The OP's season ticket covers the journey from Brighton - East Croydon.

 

[djh1986]

This is the sticking point, I've got past East Croydon on Southern trains before and bought a travelcard off the guard in the past with no problems to get through the barriers at Victoria.

The machines at Brighton only issue travelcards including the Brighton - London journey which I already have covered on my season ticket.

I'm a little annoyed with myself because I could have just swiped my PAYG oyster at St Pancras and got charged the maximum Oyster fare and saved all the agro and a few quid!

 

[Ferret]

I'm a little annoyed with myself because I could have just swiped my PAYG oyster at St Pancras and got charged the maximum Oyster fare and saved all the agro and a few quid!

Well why didn't you then?

Seriously though, I think this is definitely a case for Passenger Focus if your appeal is rejected. Can't see any justification for a PF in this case, which has a startling similarity to one another forum member (Jonmorris) managed to get binned.

 

[djh1986]

Well why didn't you then?

No idea, thought it'd be easier to pay the usual £5 and get a travelcard for the evening rather than spend £4.80? just to get through the barriers.

Last time I try to be honest and upfront! If I'd tried to get through the barriers with my season ticket, I'd see their point but I made my intentions clear before the barrier.

Also put in a complaint to FCC about the conduct of the female member of staff texting whilst dealing with me and one to Southern about the Brighton ticket office!

 

[RJ]

No, because had an RPI caught you between East Croydon and St Pancras, you would have been liable to pay a Penalty Fare.

Was the ticket office at Portslade closed? Its advertised opening time is 05:55 to 19:20. Why didn't you get a new ticket at East Croydon? Just because the train you were on happened to be a through train to where you needed to get to, it doesn't mean you're allowed to travel beyond the validity of your ticket. Unfortunately, a queue at the ticket office is not a legally approved reason for not purchasing the correct ticket.

If you snub the opportunity to buy a ticket which will cover your whole journey, you will have to pay the price. If there was no opportunity for you to purchase a ticket, the RPI should have issued an Excess Fare. Contrary to common belief, discretion is not subjective - there are specific instructions in retail staff's handbooks which state when it can and can't be excised. I've read your ground for appeal and none of them are strong enough to guarantee a successful appeal, unless the ticket office at Portslade was not open when it was supposed to be.

 

[Ferret]

If you snub the opportunity to buy a ticket which will cover your whole journey, you will have to pay the price. If there was no opportunity for you to purchase a ticket, the RPI should have issued an Excess Fare. Contrary to common belief, discretion is not subjective - there are specific instructions in retail staff's handbooks which state when it can and can't be excised. I've read your ground for appeal and none of them are strong enough to guarantee a successful appeal.

In which case, the OP should have been PF'd on the previous occasions he mentioned!

In any case, the PF is probably invalid on the grounds that he travelled from Brighton with a valid ticket (see point 5). A pretty basic schoolboy error from whoever filled it in I'm afraid. I'm told quite a few of the UFNs issued by my colleagues go in the bin for basic things - like not writing the time down or putting in station codes instead of writing the full name. Needless to say, management were not happy with this situation and have been drumming it into us that we must get it right!

 

[djh1986]

In which case, the OP should have been PF'd on the previous occasions he mentioned!

Indeed, either the numerous members of staff working on the excess fare windows at VIC and LBG aren't doing their jobs properly (I should have been issued a penalty fare on several occasions, must be getting on for fifty within 12 months) or the two FCC staff at St Pancras have it spot on. If it is the latter, then fair enough, Southern staff at LBG and VIC must tighten up.

If this is the case, I'll simply have to either get a travelcard on the South Coast (not an enviable task given how understaffed the ticket offices are) or break my journey up at East Croydon. As it stands, based on this experience, it is very unclear.

 

[swt_passenger]

Only a small niggle in the context of the overall discussion, but how is the OP normally covering the short section between East Croydon and Zone 4 (Norwood Jn first station) when he buys a separate Zone 1-4 travelcard?

 

[djh1986]

Only a small niggle in the context of the overall discussion, but how is the OP normally covering the short section between East Croydon and Zone 4 (Norwood Jn first station) when he buys a separate Zone 1-4 travelcard?

Apologies, should have said, I buy a Zone 1-6 Travelcard. Zones 1-4 cover me to South Norwood and I buy one of those if not going via ECR, e.g. from LBG. My mistake in the post.

 

[Oswyntail]

I do not know what the rulebook says (I can imagine!) But:-

• Is what the customer wants reasonable?
• Is it possible for the TOC concerned to provide for the customer, without increasing staffing levels or other overheads?

If the answer to both questions is "Yes" then the TOC should be providing the service. If all that is stopping this is the rule book, then the rule book is wrong - again.

 

[radamfi]

There is a major problem with people needing to extend tickets which has been exacerbated by destaffing stations. Most stations in the South East have replaced Permit to Travel machines with ticket machines, making extending tickets impossible when the ticket office is shut. If the ticket office is open, you are (unfairly) obliged to queue, even though you have a ticket for the first part of your journey.

Obviously the whole problem would be solved by allowing remote ticket buying from ticket machines. I bet some posters will stick up for TOCs saying that it would lead to fraud. But German and Dutch ticket machines allow remote ticketing so there is no excuse. Given that there is a €35 penalty fare for buying tickets on the train in the Netherlands, even if the ticket office is shut, it is just as well.

 

[djh1986]

A very good point, in this day and age you should be able to buy a ticket from East Croydon to London Terminals from Brighton station's ticket machines.

You can't even buy zones 1-6 railcards online to pick up at the machines.

 

[cuccir]

on my phone so apology for spelling etc. Two points: the op is not obliged to extend their jpirney by changing at east croydon IF they could not buy a ticket on departure. secondly, a queue at the ticlet desk is an adequate reason for not buying a ticket, as long as the op arrived at the station a sufficient time before the train departed. I think the figure I have seen quoted is n minutes, but i coulf be wrong there; others with more knowledge can confirm the details of this. Note_ that should be 'ten' minutes above!

 

[scotsman]

Don't pay the PF! If you do, I think it's likely they'll throw out the case on the grounds you accepted the PF.

However, I reckon they'll waive the PF in light of the complaint and the actions of the staff, as you've highlighted.

 

[djh1986]

I was told I had to pay it on the spot or it would be escalated to (insert random letters and numbers) and that department would in the RPI's words "chase it a lot more than I would, I'd strongly advise you just pay now."

Having already been 15 minutes late meeting my colleague, I thought it would be the easiest way out as took my railcard holder else I'd have considered running through the barriers on my Oyster!

 

[transportphoto]

So, I may be misunderstanding something, you have already paid?

 

[djh1986]

Correct, paid the £20 and I am appealing it.

Arguing my case at the barrier got me absolutely nowhere and I was told to pay on the spot.

 

[transportphoto]

If you were forced to pay on the spot and were given no other choice, this is another error on the part of the RPI's - which could help you win the appeal but as you have already paid your chance of getting a refund has dropped considerably.

 

[djh1986]

To be honest, I'm not hugely fussed about the refund. It's more the principal and to clear the procedure up and try and get some form of consistency.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Re:

Don't pay the PF! If you do, I think it's likely they'll throw out the case on the grounds you accepted the PF.

and

but as you have already paid your chance of getting a refund has dropped considerably.

This line of argument does keep cropping up. I think its an implied assumption that if someone has paid a surcharge, penalty, excess or a replacement ticket then they have admitted guilt or fault.
Not necesarily true.
The payment may be made under duress; it may be paid due to the need to get home; it may be paid after being given advice which subsequently may be deemed unreliable; or other circumstances.

Payment doesn't imply acceptance of whatever may or may not have been said in a moment of uncertainty. It may, for example, be a way of resolving a conflict. Payment can be made "without prejudice" to any subsequent debate.

Its wrong to compare transactions for products or services on the High Street (where you can just walk away from a offer to supply which you don't like) with the transport sector. It can be implicit in a contract for transport that you still have the need to get home - doing so could never be mis-construed as an implied acceptance of Terms, Conditions or Practice whinch are in dispute.

If you were forced to pay on the spot and were given no other choice, this is another error on the part of the RPI's - which could help you win the appeal . . .

That much I agree with, but not the rest of your sentence.

 

[tony_mac]

It may, for example, be a way of resolving a conflict. Payment can be made "without prejudice" to any subsequent debate.

I don't know about these circumstances - but that is not correct in other settings.
If you pay a parking ticket then you lose the right to use the formal appeal procedures; if you want to appeal you must not pay it, and it does say that on the tickets.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If you pay a parking ticket then you lose the right to use the formal appeal procedures; if you want to appeal you must not pay it, and it does say that on the tickets.

Interesting example which appears to anticipate some of the 'defence' I posted above. Yes, if the contract (the parking ticket) expressly states the payment implies something, then you're right. I don't know that rail Penalties, Excesses, replacement tickets or other request for additional payment includes such a Clause (though perhaps I should read some more 'small print' to be sure!),

But my point was, that the traveller, faced with a demand for payment but unable to walk away and choose an alternative means of getting home, is in a good position to happily make a payment "without prejudice" and get home to challenge it in the morning.

My statement above was: "Not necessarily true." And that's exactly what I meant. It may be true, but not 'automatically'. Payment can be construed to indicate complete acceptance of all the terms and conditions applying to a contract (and that is the usual situation). But payment can, alternatively, be made "without prejudice" to any subsequent judicial interpretation (and can be made under duress etc.).

[Note 1. I have a little experience of success in this strategy but don't want to give precendent here as not all circumstances apply in all cases.
Note 2. I would advise writing the two words "without prejudice" on any document a passenger signed to enable their travel home which may be contested.]

 

[RJ]

This line of argument does keep cropping up. I think its an implied assumption that if someone has paid a surcharge, penalty, excess or a replacement ticket then they have admitted guilt or fault.
Not necesarily true.
The payment may be made under duress; it may be paid due to the need to get home; it may be paid after being given advice which subsequently may be deemed unreliable; or other circumstances.

Payment doesn't imply acceptance of whatever may or may not have been said in a moment of uncertainty. It may, for example, be a way of resolving a conflict. Payment can be made "without prejudice" to any subsequent debate.

Its wrong to compare transactions for products or services on the High Street (where you can just walk away from a offer to supply which you don't like) with the transport sector. It can be implicit in a contract for transport that you still have the need to get home - doing so could never be mis-construed as an implied acceptance of Terms, Conditions or Practice whinch are in dispute.

Agreed and people with no experience of the legal system tend to assume that Penalty Fares are a type of fine, even though they are not in legal terms.

I got a Penalty Fare and I paid the £20.00 up front as a deposit for a couple of reasons, ultimately to reduce my stress levels. I don't want to receive threatening letters from IRCAS, especially as I had my exams/moving house/changing jobs to deal with simultaneously.

I know that I will be getting that £20.00 back as the TOC in question does not have a legal leg to stand on by upholding the Penalty Fare for several reasons. I wrote a *very* strongly worded letter to the IAS that by rejecting my appeal, they were in breach of the SRA Code of Practice that they are supposed to adhere to. I attached cast iron evidence that I was fully compliant with the NRCoC and pointed out that not a single clause in the Penalty Fare Rules 2002 sanctioned the issuing of a Penalty Fare under the circumstances. A powerful benefactor has corroborated what I was writing in the appeal and provided me with this in writing to include with my letters. The appeal is now being reconsidered which allegedly is uncommon.

So if I have to go through that (which is only the tip of the iceberg) just to get a wrongly issued PF cleared, good luck to anyone wanting a successful appeal for not holding a valid ticket without good reason. BTW I notice the OP has avoided answering my question of whether the ticket office at Portslade was open or not.

Finally, using inappropriate use of discretion as a grounds for appeal is risky. Contrary to common assumption, discretion is not subjective, there are clear instructions in retail staff's handbooks as to when discretion should or should not be excised.

I appreciate that some people may not like the fact that I'm realistic and tell it like it is, but I'd rather not put anyone asking for help under the illusion that they will win an appeal when the TOC was actually following the rules.

 

[MikeWh]

BTW I notice the OP has avoided answering my question of whether the ticket office at Portslade was open or not.

I'm not sure that this is relevant actually. The OP spent a longer than reasonable time in a queue at Brighton station which is before the ticket which he was using ran out. He has attempted to buy the correct extension before boarding the train that would take him beyond the validity of his existing ticket. It is neither reasonable to miss a train if the queue time is excessive (and you allowed enough time to buy the ticket), nor necessary to delay the journey en-route.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The rules of Penalty fares in 'the manual' (FRPP) says it is the responsibility of the passenger to purchase the ticket before the journey is started. Portslade is a Penalty Fare Scheme station, so the Penalty fare should really have been from there (atleast that is how the FRPP reads). If Portslade ticket office was open, this is where the Travelcard should have been bought. If it was not open, a Permit to travel (or other travel authority) should have been available to the OP, if no Permit to travel machine (or no authority to travel/facilities to issue your required ticket) was available, a Penalty fare should not be issued.

However, by saying they went to the ticket office at Brighton, the OP has admitted they had the opportunity to buy a ticket before they boarded the train from Brighton. The penalty fare people might say it was an unreasonable wait at Brighton, but there is nothing in the FRPP about that and it is still the OP's responsibility to purchase the ticket before travelling.

 

[djh1986]

I freely admit I didn't go to Portslade, the ticket office is on the opposite platform. I fancied my chances of getting served in Brighton quicker, and I had more time on my side to make my connection there.

As others have said, I was covered until East Croydon anyway so the only other alternative was to break my journey there.

I'm still at a bit of a loss as to why London Bridge and Victoria excess fares windows allow you to buy a ticket having passed your last permitted station (a wise decision, allows people to travel into London without having to get off at stations like CLJ and ECR, buy a new ticket and then get on a train again. If LBG and Victoria allow you to do this at excess fare windows, then St Pancras should too.

If the PF has been applied correctly, then that's fine but this needs clearing up by someone as plenty of people travel from the South Coast to London's Southern commuter belt for work and then go past their home station to go into London.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Only Authorised Penalty Fare Collectors can issue Penalty Fares, I doubt the staff of an excess window are anything more than ticket office staff and therefore unlikely to be able to issue Penalty Fares.

Authorised Penalty Fare Collectors are usually just Revenue Protection Inspectors, on train Conductors or Barrier staff.

 

[radamfi]

Is it permitted to buy a Brighton to Zones 1-6 Travelcard at Brighton (thus meaning the ticket machine could be used and therefore saving time) and claiming a refund of the excess fare paid?