Excess Fares Query - Appeal againt Penalty Charge at St Panc

[cuccir]

However, by saying they went to the ticket office at Brighton, the OP has admitted they had the opportunity to buy a ticket before they boarded the train from Brighton. The penalty fare people might say it was an unreasonable wait at Brighton, but there is nothing in the FRPP about that and it is still the OP's responsibility to purchase the ticket before travelling.

Under the Ticketing Standards Agreement, passengers should not expect to wait more than five minutes for a ticket at peak times, three minutes elsewhere. I'm not blaming the RPI's for not knowing this, as there's no reason they should, but that agreement is there for this sort of case.

However, I'll admit to having misread the post earlier - I didn't notice the Portslade to Brighton part. This is key, because the NCoC states that:

"you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms unless either:
(i) at the station where you started your journey:
* there was no ticket office or no ticket office was open and
* there were no self- service ticket machines or no self-service ticket
machines were in full working order and
* in Penalty Fares areas you bought a Permit to Travel unless no Permit to Travel issuing machine was in full working order:"

It's clear here that the regulations apply to the point at which you've started your journey, which is Portslade. If you didn't attempt to buy a ticket here, or leave adequate time for the ticket, then I don't see that you'd get any success in this.

As for the excesses at Vic/London Bridge - these should be there for passengers who have met all of the 'unless' criteria which are listed in the NCoC.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Is it permitted to buy a Brighton to Zones 1-6 Travelcard at Brighton (thus meaning the ticket machine could be used and therefore saving time) and claiming a refund of the excess fare paid?

The refund would be subject to an admin fee.

 

[jon0844]

Why didn't you get a new ticket at East Croydon? Just because the train you were on happened to be a through train to where you needed to get to, it doesn't mean you're allowed to travel beyond the validity of your ticket.

Well, given that I was told that by the RPI for FCC (get off at Hatfield, cross bridge, get ticket, cross back and board next train that might be 30 minutes later) and won the appeal, I'd say that this opinion is wrong!

This incident is slightly different in that the ticket office at the start COULD sell the extension (unlike Old Street, run by London Underground) so it comes down to the acceptable time to queue. You can't get extensions from a TVM, so that is also worth highlighting in the appeal.

I wish the OP good luck, and hope that common sense will prevail. 12 minutes, especially if proved by CCTV evidence, is almost certainly too long to wait to buy a ticket.

Update: Maybe it is different if the extension wasn't bought at the originating station, but then again - given you have a season ticket, you could break your journey anywhere along the route. I'd imagine you'd state the originating station as being Brighton.
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To be honest, I'm not hugely fussed about the refund. It's more the principal and to clear the procedure up and try and get some form of consistency.

Same with me. However, I refused to pay the full PF. Instead I paid the very minimum, which resulted in me getting a refund for £1.30 when I won the appeal because they take out the cost of the ticket you should have had.
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I don't know about these circumstances - but that is not correct in other settings.
If you pay a parking ticket then you lose the right to use the formal appeal procedures; if you want to appeal you must not pay it, and it does say that on the tickets.

When I see FCC staff giving penalty fares they always try and get the full £20 and then they explain how you can appeal. I'd hope that having paid the £20 doesn't mean they automatically lose the appeal, as it would mean FCC are totally wrong to tell people to pay in full (or pay anything). Someone who doesn't know is hardly going to refuse.

 

[MikeWh]

Yes, given that the ticket held is a season, surely as long as an attempt was made to buy the extension before it was needed then it should be ok. What would happen if while travelling between Portslade and Brighton the passenger received a mobile call from his friend who he was expecting to meet at EC saying that he was delayed and could they now meet in London. Does the passenger have to return to Portslade to buy the now needed extension, or can he take advantage of the connection time in Brighton.

I'm certain that the rules about having the ticket for the whole journey at the start are actually aimed at individual train journeys rather than the combined journey where connections are necessary.

 

[jon0844]

However, by saying they went to the ticket office at Brighton, the OP has admitted they had the opportunity to buy a ticket before they boarded the train from Brighton. The penalty fare people might say it was an unreasonable wait at Brighton, but there is nothing in the FRPP about that and it is still the OP's responsibility to purchase the ticket before travelling.

This is tricky. I am sure the definition of originating station is where you started a journey, and then continued on to the destination - perhaps with a change of train by changing platform.

Now, if you've gone from Portslade to Brighton with a valid ticket and left the station (which you must have done to go to the ticket office) then I'd consider that to be the originating station for the next journey.

Even if you're only at Brighton for 5 minutes, surely that MUST be the start of a new journey? What if you left the station building, a few metres outside the station property? Would that now count?

And how long until the next trip is considered a new journey? And how does anyone prove it?

Or is the originating station always going to be where your ticket is marked from? That would screw me in London with a Travelcard and a choice of stations to start from.

I can see this turning into another lengthy thread!

 

[Railjet]

Under the Ticketing Standards Agreement, passengers should not expect to wait more than five minutes for a ticket at peak times, three minutes elsewhere. I'm not blaming the RPI's for not knowing this, as there's no reason they should, but that agreement is there for this sort of case.

On the contrary, I would have thought that this is the sort of fundamental information which RPIs should know, given that it must be one of the most frequent (genuine) reasons non-fare-evading passengers give for not buying a ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Now, if you've gone from Portslade to Brighton with a valid ticket and left the station (which you must have done to go to the ticket office) then I'd consider that to be the originating station for the next journey....

Are you sure the ticket office is outside the station? As in, you have to leave the station concourse/buillding to get to it? it's very unusual if that is the case. I can't think of another station I have been to, where that is the case. I have been to Brighton quite a few years ago, but I can't recall where the ticket office is, having never had to use that one.

You can break/start/end a journey (as defined in the NCoC) with a season ticket at any point along any of it's valid routes. The RPI would only have your word on where the 'journey' actually started.

I think you are best asking Yorkie for the definition of 'journey' though.

 

[djh1986]

However, I'll admit to having misread the post earlier - I didn't notice the Portslade to Brighton part. This is key, because the NCoC states that:

"you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms unless either:
(i) at the station where you started your journey:
* there was no ticket office or no ticket office was open and
* there were no self- service ticket machines or no self-service ticket
machines were in full working order and
* in Penalty Fares areas you bought a Permit to Travel unless no Permit to Travel issuing machine was in full working order:"

It's clear here that the regulations apply to the point at which you've started your journey, which is Portslade. If you didn't attempt to buy a ticket here, or leave adequate time for the ticket, then I don't see that you'd get any success in this.

As for the excesses at Vic/London Bridge - these should be there for passengers who have met all of the 'unless' criteria which are listed in the NCoC.

On your first point, fair enough. As I was already covered from Portslade, I thought as long as I attempted to buy a ticket at any station between there and East Croydon then that would be acceptable. I may struggle with my appeal if the law is strictly adhered to.

On the second point, what are the unless criteria? Sounds like ticket office staff at those stations are using common sense rather than playing it exactly by the rule book.

 

[Ferret]

Are you sure the ticket office is outside the station? As in, you have to leave the station concourse/buillding to get to it? it's very unusual if that is the case. I can't think of another station I have been to, where that is the case. I have been to Brighton quite a few years ago, but I can't recall where the ticket office is, having never had to use that one.

You can break/start/end a journey (as defined in the NCoC) with a season ticket at any point along any of it's valid routes. The RPI would only have your word on where the 'journey' actually started.

I think you are best asking Yorkie for the definition of 'journey' though.

The ticket office at Brighton is outsiude the barriered area, but within the station building! Anyway, if the customer can prove he attempted to buy a ticket but was unable to, I can't see any justification for the Penalty Fare. I hope the OP will keep us posted on this one....

 

[djh1986]

The ticket office at Brighton is outsiude the barriered area, but within the station building! Anyway, if the customer can prove he attempted to buy a ticket but was unable to, I can't see any justification for the Penalty Fare. I hope the OP will keep us posted on this one....

Certainly will. Letter was sent off last night first class and I've emailed both FCC about the attitude of the female member of staff at St Panc and emailed Southern about the staffing issues at Brighton.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Now, if you've gone from Portslade to Brighton with a valid ticket and left the station (which you must have done to go to the ticket office) then I'd consider that to be the originating station for the next journey.

Even if you're only at Brighton for 5 minutes, surely that MUST be the start of a new journey?

. . . . .

I can see this turning into another lengthy thread!

I think to preserve our sanity and avoid this becoming another very lengthy thread, we can confidently say that the OP did not leave the Station at Brighton.

However, this still leaves unanswered your implied question about the term "journey" which remained inconclusively answered in the debate(s) about "split" tickets.

As the terms has not been rigourously defined, there is little point in us debating on here which interpretation is "correct" or "wrong"; (the argument just won't get us anywhere).
But there is a point in the OP using the undefined term in his/her Appeal in whatever definition improves his/her prospect of success.

And to that end only, it is quite reasonable to claim that "the journey" in question began at Brighton and that was where the ticket was sought, without having to conceal the fact that they had already travelled from Portslade.
That isn't a contradiction, it is an attempt to apply the Regulations, as written, to an actual, practical experience.

 

[jon0844]

Are you sure the ticket office is outside the station?

Sorry, I worded that very badly. I didn't mean leaving the station, but rather the platform area (through the barriers). Once doing so, I'd regard that as the end of one journey - or at least for having a season ticket. If it was a Portslade to East Croydon ticket bought as a single ticket then maybe it would be different - especially if you can't do a break of journey on it.

Now, if it means having to walk outside the station (as I mentioned) to make it count as a new journey, does that count - and how does anyone know the OP didn't to have a cigarette or pop to a newsagents that wasn't as expensive as WH Smith?

 

[RJ]

I doubt the staff of an excess window are anything more than ticket office staff and therefore unlikely to be able to issue Penalty Fares.

Not correct.

I'm not sure that this is relevant actually. The OP spent a longer than reasonable time in a queue at Brighton station which is before the ticket which he was using ran out. He has attempted to buy the correct extension before boarding the train that would take him beyond the validity of his existing ticket. It is neither reasonable to miss a train if the queue time is excessive (and you allowed enough time to buy the ticket), nor necessary to delay the journey en-route.

It is completely relevant as it was an opportunity to purchase a ticket.

The penalty fare people might say it was an unreasonable wait at Brighton, but there is nothing in the FRPP about that and it is still the OP's responsibility to purchase the ticket before travelling.

It categorically states on the Excess Fares page that the customer's late arrival at a station or a queue at the ticket office are not acceptable reasons for not having purchased an excess fare or valid ticket for the whole journey.

 

[djh1986]

It categorically states on the Excess Fares page that the customer's late arrival at a station or a queue at the ticket office are not acceptable reasons for not having purchased an excess fare or valid ticket for the whole journey.

Not sure I agree with this. From the Department of Transport website:

"4.12 Where penalty fares apply, passengers must allow enough time to buy a ticket, including time to queue, if necessary. Under normal circumstances, passengers may still be charged a penalty fare if they join a train without a ticket, even if there was a queue at the ticket office or ticket machine. However, we expect operators to provide enough ticket windows, ticket machines and staff at staffed stations to meet the queuing standards set out in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement and their Passenger's Charter under normal circumstances. This standard is normally five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times. If queues at a particular station regularly fail to meet these standards at certain times or days of the week, the operator must either take action to sort out the problem before a penalty fares scheme is introduced or make sure that passengers are not charged penalty fares when these queuing standards are not met. This might include providing extra staff or ticket machines. A penalty fares scheme must include arrangements for telling authorised collectors when long queues build up at ticket offices (see paragraph 4.33)."

 

[RJ]

This is tricky. I am sure the definition of originating station is where you started a journey, and then continued on to the destination - perhaps with a change of train by changing platform.

Now, if you've gone from Portslade to Brighton with a valid ticket and left the station (which you must have done to go to the ticket office) then I'd consider that to be the originating station for the next journey.

Even if you're only at Brighton for 5 minutes, surely that MUST be the start of a new journey? What if you left the station building, a few metres outside the station property? Would that now count?

And how long until the next trip is considered a new journey? And how does anyone prove it?

Or is the originating station always going to be where your ticket is marked from? That would screw me in London with a Travelcard and a choice of stations to start from.

I can see this turning into another lengthy thread!

There is something called Break of Journey. If the customer holds certain types of ticket, they are permitted to break their journey as many times as they like. Season tickets are one of those ticket types and so what you've said above is essentially irrelevant to the OP's situation.

At the end of the day the OP chose not to get the correct ticket sorted at either the origin or destination points for the ticket they held. The validity of the ticket was between Portslade and East Croydon. Travelling without a ticket when there was an opportunity to purchase one means is in contravention with Condition 2 of the NRCoC nd means that the customer is liable to pay a Penalty Fare. Therefore appealing is pointless.
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Not sure I agree with this. From the Department of Transport website:

"4.12 Where penalty fares apply, passengers must allow enough time to buy a ticket, including time to queue, if necessary. Under normal circumstances, passengers may still be charged a penalty fare if they join a train without a ticket, even if there was a queue at the ticket office or ticket machine. However, we expect operators to provide enough ticket windows, ticket machines and staff at staffed stations to meet the queuing standards set out in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement and their Passenger's Charter under normal circumstances. This standard is normally five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times. If queues at a particular station regularly fail to meet these standards at certain times or days of the week, the operator must either take action to sort out the problem before a penalty fares scheme is introduced or make sure that passengers are not charged penalty fares when these queuing standards are not met. This might include providing extra staff or ticket machines. A penalty fares scheme must include arrangements for telling authorised collectors when long queues build up at ticket offices (see paragraph 4.33)."

That still doesn't help your case as you didn't try to get it sorted at Portslade. The use of the word "regularly" is key and probably has a definition somewhere. I doubt that it applies if someone turns up at a ticket office window once in a blue moon and takes up an excessive amount of the clerk's time.

 

[djh1986]

I would think attempting to purchase a ticket en route would be enough. Portslade is a small suburban station, anyone in their right mind would go to Brighton to get it sorted. Upholding the PF on this

Still clutching at straws as my main argument is the inconsistency between London Mainline Stations and the excess fare windows given numerous past experiences.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

RJ, the Excess Fares section also states that penalty fares rules take precedence over excess fares rules. The penalty fares rules page does not mention it.

When I worked for Thameslink, they had three stations with an excess window in use, Bedford, St Albans and Kings Cross Thameslink. The excess window at Kings Cross Thameslink was manned by regular ticket office staff and I believe the other two were the same. Thameslink ticket office staff were not authorised penalty fares collectors and thus could not issue penalty fares. Southern might operate differently, I wouldn't know for definate about that. If you are certain that Southern excess window staff can issue penalty fares, I can only take your word for it.

 

[MikeWh]

That still doesn't help your case as you didn't try to get it sorted at Portslade. The use of the word "regularly" is key and probably has a definition somewhere. I doubt that it applies if someone turns up at a ticket office window once in a blue moon and takes up an excessive amount of the clerk's time.

Sorry, I need to press you on this. Are you saying that with a point to point season ticket you must try to purchase an extension ticket at the station at the other end? What if a passenger is temporarily staying midway along their route and not actually starting any journey at the beginning? And what about travelcards, what is the start point of a zone 1-6 travelcard if you want to combine it with a return to say Gravesend? Surely if your overall journey allows you ample opportunity to purchase the extension within the validity of your ticket then that is acceptable. If at that point the TOC fails to provide the means to purchase the extension then they should not be able to issue a penalty fare.

And if a passenger has caused an excessive queue to develop then I think the penalty fare rules state that the ticket office should alert the RPIs that there has been a problem. In any case, after 7pm must be off-peak, so a queue of 10+ minutes is more than 3 times the allowed standard.

 

[jon0844]

There is something called Break of Journey. If the customer holds certain types of ticket, they are permitted to break their journey as many times as they like. Season tickets are one of those ticket types and so what you've said above is essentially irrelevant to the OP's situation.

Absolute rubbish. My whole point was about break of journey, and if you had a normal point-to-point ticket you couldn't. With a season you can - but the point, which I think you've missed, is that a season allows free travel anywhere within the start and end points. So, it isn't a break of journey because you didn't need to start in Portslade at all.

If you exited the gates at Brighton, I'd count that as finishing your journey. The fact you're going to start another journey by train later on (whether 5 minutes from now or five or six hours) is irrelevant. It could only apply if the OP had a NORMAL ticket. Given you couldn't break the journey, at least on the outbound journey, that's where they could nab you IF YOU HAD A NORMAL TICKET - as you would have been required to get your extension at the originating station.

This is a season and I'm pretty confident in saying that I'm 100% right on this. I'm not so certain that an appeal would automatically succeed, but given it's going to be the same people that sided with me on mine - fingers crossed. My appeal was won very quickly too, so I doubt they deliberated about it for any length of time.

 

[RJ]

Sorry, I need to press you on this. Are you saying that with a point to point season ticket you must try to purchase an extension ticket at the station at the other end? What if a passenger is temporarily staying midway along their route and not actually starting any journey at the beginning? And what about travelcards, what is the start point of a zone 1-6 travelcard if you want to combine it with a return to say Gravesend? Surely if your overall journey allows you ample opportunity to purchase the extension within the validity of your ticket then that is acceptable. If at that point the TOC fails to provide the means to purchase the extension then they should not be able to issue a penalty fare.

And if a passenger has caused an excessive queue to develop then I think the penalty fare rules state that the ticket office should alert the RPIs that there has been a problem. In any case, after 7pm must be off-peak, so a queue of 10+ minutes is more than 3 times the allowed standard.

I didn't at any stage say you *must* purchase an extension at the other end, but it is necessary if one took the decision not to get it sorted earlier i.e at the origin. The rule does not change just because the train happens to be a through train, the ticket ceased to be valid after East Croydon. If one has done this then travelling beyond the validity of the ticket is in contravention with Condition 2 of the NRCoC.

At Gravesend you can purchase a Gravesend - London Zones 1-6 for £13.00 Off Peak, £23.30 Peak or £75.10 for a week. This is a single ticket which covers you both ways and includes a Z1-6 TC. Or for a ODT, buy a BZ6 - Gravesend (rtn if req).

If you hold a Zone 1-6 Season ticket (like I do) then you can buy an extension Boundary Zone 6 - Gravesend ticket, single or return.

If you get on a train at London Bridge, change at Crayford for another train to Gravesend with only a Z1-6 Travelcard, season or otherwise the Revenue at Gravesend will quite rightly PF you. If your train from London Bridge was direct to Gravesend, stopping at Crayford along the way then you're still liable to pay a PF. The rule does not change just because the train happens to be a through train.

From what I can gather (I haven't read anything to confirm this), the Ticketing Standards Agreement is between the DfT and TOC, whereas the NRCoC is between the TOC and passenger so the latter always applies to passengers.

There is something called Break of Journey. If the customer holds certain types of ticket, they are permitted to break their journey as many times as they like. Season tickets are one of those ticket types and so what you've said above is essentially irrelevant to the OP's situation.

Absolute rubbish. My whole point was about break of journey, and if you had a normal point-to-point ticket you couldn't.

BS, you can break your journey if you hold an Anytime, Saver or CDR ticket for starters. You do not know what you are talking about.

If you exited the gates at Brighton, I'd count that as finishing your journey. The fact you're going to start another journey by train later on (whether 5 minutes from now or five or six hours) is irrelevant. It could only apply if the OP had a NORMAL ticket. Given you couldn't break the journey, at least on the outbound journey, that's where they could nab you IF YOU HAD A NORMAL TICKET - as you would have been required to get your extension at the originating station.

What on earth are you on about? Advance tickets/unregulated fares?

RJ, the Excess Fares section also states that penalty fares rules take precedence over excess fares rules. The penalty fares rules page does not mention it.

When I worked for Thameslink, they had three stations with an excess window in use, Bedford, St Albans and Kings Cross Thameslink. The excess window at Kings Cross Thameslink was manned by regular ticket office staff and I believe the other two were the same. Thameslink ticket office staff were not authorised penalty fares collectors and thus could not issue penalty fares. Southern might operate differently, I wouldn't know for definate about that. If you are certain that Southern excess window staff can issue penalty fares, I can only take your word for it.

Ok then you should have said it was for FCC only then because it's not the case for all TOCs.

 

[MikeWh]

You're seriously missing the point RJ, and I haven't helped with my question trying to understand what you were saying. So, sticking to the story in hand, do you accept:

1) Attempting to buy the extension ticket at Brighton before joining the train to London is acceptable?
2) If it wasn't possible to do this for a valid reason (ie ticket office shut, machines unable to issue ticket) that a PF would then not be valid?
3) Having failed to buy the extension because of TOC failure there is then no compulsion to delay the journey by getting off at East Croydon?

If the answer is yes to all three then surely the only question is whether the actual circumstances are sufficient to invalidate the PF. If the train running logs and/or CCTV support the OPs story then I think it should have a fair chance of success, but that is just my opinion.

 

[Ferret]

You're seriously missing the point RJ, and I haven't helped with my question trying to understand what you were saying. So, sticking to the story in hand, do you accept:

1) Attempting to buy the extension ticket at Brighton before joining the train to London is acceptable?
2) If it wasn't possible to do this for a valid reason (ie ticket office shut, machines unable to issue ticket) that a PF would then not be valid?
3) Having failed to buy the extension because of TOC failure there is then no compulsion to delay the journey by getting off at East Croydon?

If the answer is yes to all three then surely the only question is whether the actual circumstances are sufficient to invalidate the PF. If the train running logs and/or CCTV support the OPs story then I think it should have a fair chance of success, but that is just my opinion.

Correct, and not to mention the fact that the PF was filled out incorrectly in the first place!

 

[90019]

Correct, and not to mention the fact that the PF was filled out incorrectly in the first place!

Is it the same as parking tickets that, IIRC, if any of the information is wrong, it's void?

 

[Ferret]

Is it the same as parking tickets that, IIRC, if any of the information is wrong, it's void?

Pretty much. The OP held a valid ticket from Brighton, yet appears to have been PF'd from there. Oops! If I caught somebody travelling Newcastle-York holding a Newcastle-Durham ticket but issued the UPFN from Newcastle-York, I'd expect it to be thrown out and a bit of a chat with the boss for being stupid enough to make that basic error!

As an aside, biggest cause of UPFNs going in the bin? Surprisingly, it's that whoever filled it out forgot to put the time that the passenger was unable to show a valid ticket. Maybe the OP would care to check his form......?

 

[MikeWh]

Penalty fares are different to UPFNs so I'm not sure that there is a problem. In fact, starting it at Brighton reinforces the opinion that the journey started there (rather than Portslade), which means that the problems encountered at the ticket office at Brighton become the exact grounds for appeal.

 

[RJ]

You're seriously missing the point RJ, and I haven't helped with my question trying to understand what you were saying. So, sticking to the story in hand, do you accept:

1) Attempting to buy the extension ticket at Brighton before joining the train to London is acceptable?
2) If it wasn't possible to do this for a valid reason (ie ticket office shut, machines unable to issue ticket) that a PF would then not be valid?
3) Having failed to buy the extension because of TOC failure there is then no compulsion to delay the journey by getting off at East Croydon?

If the answer is yes to all three then surely the only question is whether the actual circumstances are sufficient to invalidate the PF. If the train running logs and/or CCTV support the OPs story then I think it should have a fair chance of success, but that is just my opinion.

1.) Of course it is acceptable, but a queue at the ticket office is not an accepted reason for not purchasing a ticket. The OP *could* have bought it at Portslade but chose not to, therefore he did not purchase one at the earliest possible opportunity so any subsequent failed attempts won't really help the case. What if there was no direct train from Brighton to STP and a change at East Croydon was necessary? Would the OP have left the platforms to get another ticket or just chanced it on the first train to STP?

2.) If it was geniunely impossible to buy a ticket then Revenue should offer the full range with no penalty.

3.) What TOC failure? The OP elected to ignore the earliest opportunity to buy the correct ticket then decided to travel beyond the validity of the ticket he held. Condition 2 of the NRCoC is quite clear on what happens if the customer does this. Because the ticket offices at Portslade and East Croydon were open, the events at Brighton strictly speaking are irrelevant. It's like me using Oyster Prepay to get from Victoria to Swanley and saying I can't be arsed to buy a paper extension at Victoria or get off at St Mary Cray to touch out and buy a paper ticket, because the train I was on was going to Swanley.

If a customer is unclear on what they need to do in order to be valid then a copy of the NRCoC should be available at stations or online.

 

[MikeWh]

1.) Of course it is acceptable, but a queue at the ticket office is not an accepted reason for not purchasing a ticket. The OP *could* have bought it at Portslade but chose not to, therefore he did not purchase one at the earliest possible opportunity so any subsequent failed attempts won't really help the case. What if there was no direct train from Brighton to STP and a change at East Croydon was necessary? Would the OP have left the platforms to get another ticket or just chanced it on the first train to STP?

2.) If it was geniunely impossible to buy a ticket then Revenue should offer the full range with no penalty.

3.) What TOC failure? The OP elected to ignore the earliest opportunity to buy the correct ticket then decided to travel beyond rhe validity of the ticket he held. Condition 2 of the NRCoC is quite clear on what happens if the customer does this. Because the ticket office at Portslade was open, the events at Brighton strictly speaking are irrelevant.

Firstly, 3) followed 2) in that I'm trying to ascertain whether if you are unable to buy your extension ticket at your origin because of TOC failure (ticket office closed etc), are you allowed to continue all the way to your destination or are you expected to make further attempts along the way which would result in you being delayed. I believe you don't but I'm not sure what you believe.

Now, the specific case is important here. The OP started a physical journey on a single train at Brighton. I believe that is why the PF mentioned Brighton as the start. Therefore it is Brighton that is important. I know that the rules say that a queue is not a valid reason, but I suspect that that is to stop people arriving at the station within a minute of the departure and expecting to be served instantly. That is unreasonable. Maybe 10-12 minutes is reasonable, although the guidelines suggest not. What point would you deem the queue time to be unreasonable? Would you expect to have to allow 30 minutes before departure? 45? (I did actually once have to do that at St Pancras Domestic so it is possible) 60? Remember that the ticket required in this case is only available at the ticket window.

If the OP had had to change at East Croydon then he'd have been fine and would have paid. He'd have gone up to the gateline, exited on his season ticket, turned round and swiped his oyster to get back in. Sorted.

 

[djh1986]

I see your points RJ but I think 9 out 10 people wouldn't:

A) Get off the train at East Croydon and delay their journey. FCC should have guards to buy tickets off on their Brighton services if they're going to apply the rules in such a draconian manner at stations.

B) Try and buy a ticket at Portslade, mainline station ticket offices should be better bets to buy tickets.

IF the PF has been applied correctly by the letter of the law then it sure is unclear and not helpful to the travelling public. Also, this is precisely why I enjoy the freedom of being able to go to Victoria and LBG from Portslade directly and simply pay at the excess fares window; I don't need to delay my journey to purchase the correct ticket.

What should I have done if I had decided en route to Norwood Junction that I was going to go into London (received a phonecall to meet a friend etc.)? Alighted at East Croydon and broke the journey up?

The rules are muddled and unclear as far as I can see and the implementation of them is even more muddled by RPIs.

 

[jon0844]

BS, you can break your journey if you hold an Anytime, Saver or CDR ticket for starters. You do not know what you are talking about.

I apologise then, I'm not a ticketing expert. My understanding was that on a normal ticket you can only do a break of journey on the return leg.

So, once again I apologise.

However, that has nothing to do with this situation anyway as it was a season ticket.

 

[cuccir]

For me, if the journey is considered to be starting at Brighton then, ignoring the technicalities about whether the PF was filled out correctly/incorrectly, then it wasn't appropriate. There is a set standard for acceptable queuing at the ticket office and this was not met. I'm not convinced about the relevance of various manual instructions related to penalty fares - are these available to the public? If not, I can't see how they can be considered appropriate regulations for issuing penalty fares. If they are, and they specifically state that long queues are not a reason for not having a ticket, then it seems unfair but also the regulations (I imagine that these regulations could be challengable though!)

As it goes, I don't see why the OP walked pass the ticket office at Portslade. The NCoc states that you must have tickets for your whole journey, and that you must buy tickets at the first opportuniy. The journey here was Portslade - London: two or more tickets 'can' be one journey, even if they are not necessarily so. Of course, the place at which the journey started would be difficult to prove, but if we're holding the TOCs to the letter of the law then we should hold passengers to it too!