Crewe Delays 16 Sep

[jfollows]

There is road transport on Saturday Macclesfield-Stoke-Stafford on behalf of Avanti.

I do not see any evidence of an Avanti train service at Stoke though some XC services are turning around there.

RTT now shows an hourly service Stoke-Manchester leaving at ~xx.15 from 08:15 to 22:13, eg https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...20-09-19/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

... and 1H61 is approaching Lichfield as I write this so the schedules appear to be real!

NRE says: (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/256175.aspx)

Only the following services are running between London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly:

• xx:40 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly and will call additionally at Milton Keynes Central, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent and Macclesfield. Delays of up to 30 minutes are anticipated between Stoke-on-Trent and Stockport.
• xx:34 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston and will call additionally at Macclesfield and Stoke-on-Trent. Delays of up to 30 minutes are anticipated between Stockport and Stoke-on-Trent.

Crewe to Manchester Q paths via Warrington departing Crewe 10:13, 13:13, 16:13, 19:13 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...2020-09-19/0000-2359?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt

Manchester to Crewe Q paths departing Manchester 09:10, 12:10, 15:10. 18:10 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/MAN/to/CRE/2020-09-19/0000-2359?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt

Q - runs as required and not yet activated so not guaranteed to operate as timed. Since it looks like all the services can be operated by the same unit, if the 09:10 from Manchester runs then probably the rest will.

EDIT - Incorrect, there are more Manchester-Crewe services planned, looks like an hourly service, some are "VST" paths and some are "VVR", xx.10 from Manchester starting 1Z02 08:10 until 1Z12 18:10. Likewise in reverse from Crewe 1Z51 08:13 to 1Z62 19:13. 1Z51 appears to be in platform 1 at Crewe currently (08:08).

Update - both 1Z02 and 1Z51 currently (at 08:35) operating in both directions Crewe-Manchester

 

[craigybagel]

The area Manchester South covers, signalling has generally in been pretty reliable over the last 15 or more years since this was installed. It's not like it's a new bit of kit that's been unreliable from the start.

Wasn't it both very late and/or over budget when it it was installed? And I can't speak for all of its time in service but as long as I've been working over it it has been notorious amongst local crews for it's unreliability. Mostly low level stuff like that fact there are numerous AWS magnets that are treating green signals as yellows, but random track circuit faults and points failures and goodness knows what else are all routine along there. You only have to look at how many other routes in the UK have subsequently been resignalled using the same system - is the answer not zero?

All of this can be summed up in one word though - "Ansaldo". How they keep winning contracts with their legacy of failures over the years astounds me.

 

[Ianno87]

Wasn't it both very late and/or over budget when it it was installed?

It was the 4 month blockade in 2005 that turned into a 8/9 month blockade.

 

[craigybagel]

Transport for Wales are also seemingly doing the same and only running as far as Crewe for the time being (this morning anyway!).

Not too surprising - the only diversion route open to them right now is via Warrington and not all drivers sign that way. Even if you do find enough drivers who sign it to run the service, you only have time to go as far as Oxford road within the limits of the normal timetable and even that is a tight squeeze - and is reliant on paths being available.

 

[Ianno87]

Not too surprising - the only diversion route open to them right now is via Warrington and not all drivers sign that way. Even if you do find enough drivers who sign it to run the service, you only have time to go as far as Oxford road within the limits of the normal timetable and even that is a tight squeeze - and is reliant on paths being available.

And a platform/path at Oxford Road.

 

[43096]

Mess room rumour has it that the two engineers drafted in from Italy have both tested positive for covid so have to self-isolate for 14 days... now awaiting some new engineers to fly over
How much of that is true I'm not sure, but it does add to the ridiculousness of the whole situation

The good old mess room rumour. Never known for being exaggerated or made up!

 

[jfollows]

It was the 4 month blockade in 2005 that turned into a 8/9 month blockade.

This was annoying at the time, although I lived in Manchester then. However - and mainly for reasons nothing to do with the supplier of the equipment - the end result has generally been good, the introduction of reversible signalling has been used to reduce the impact of failures and give flexibility, and the "overlap problem" at Cheadle Hulme (where you couldn't use the down Macclesfield platform if a route was set for Crewe-Stockport in either direction) was fixed by redesigning and relaying the points.

EDIT - I should add, this is from the perspective of an infrequent passenger, not as anyone who has to work with the new equipment!

 

[James101]

RTT now shows an hourly service Stoke-Manchester leaving at ~xx.15 from 08:15 to 22:13, eg https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...20-09-19/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

... and 1H61 is approaching Lichfield as I write this so the schedules appear to be real!

NRE says: (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/256175.aspx)

Only the following services are running between London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly:

• xx:40 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly and will call additionally at Milton Keynes Central, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent and Macclesfield. Delays of up to 30 minutes are anticipated between Stoke-on-Trent and Stockport.
• xx:34 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston and will call additionally at Macclesfield and Stoke-on-Trent. Delays of up to 30 minutes are anticipated between Stockport and Stoke-on-Trent.

Crewe to Manchester Q paths via Warrington departing Crewe 10:13, 13:13, 16:13, 19:13 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...2020-09-19/0000-2359?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt

Manchester to Crewe Q paths departing Manchester 09:10, 12:10, 15:10. 18:10 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/MAN/to/CRE/2020-09-19/0000-2359?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt

Q - runs as required and not yet activated so not guaranteed to operate as timed. Since it looks like all the services can be operated by the same unit, if the 09:10 from Manchester runs then probably the rest will.

EDIT - Incorrect, there are more Manchester-Crewe services planned, looks like an hourly service, some are "VST" paths and some are "VVR", xx.10 from Manchester starting 1Z02 08:10 until 1Z12 18:10. Likewise in reverse from Crewe 1Z51 08:13 to 1Z62 19:13. 1Z51 appears to be in platform 1 at Crewe currently (08:08).

Update - both 1Z02 and 1Z51 currently (at 08:35) operating in both directions Crewe-Manchester

Something sensible prevails! Although National Rail Enquires acknowledges this hour sky service through Stoke, it then goes on to advise no service between Stoke & Macclesfield. RTT suggests the hourly service is running through Euston - Manchester, albeit with delays around Stockport.

As this is 5 hourly trains rolled into one, it me be tricky getting a socially-distanced seat.

It seems they’re persisting with the road transport but not linking up the various shuttles to so journey planners churn out something fun like this:

 

[jfollows]

Yesterday afternoon the journey planner was advising a bus Stoke-Stafford for a Cross-Country service Stafford-Manchester, which was clearly using the original timetable with XC diversions via Crewe and Wilmslow. So completely wrong then!

 

[sprinterguy]

Avanti running one train an hour Manchester to Stoke tomorrow. Northern running hourly bus Stoke to Macclesfield and two hourly train Macclesfield to Manc.

Ah okay, that makes sense.

 

[Ianno87]

This was annoying at the time, although I lived in Manchester then. However - and mainly for reasons nothing to do with the supplier of the equipment - the end result has generally been good, the introduction of reversible signalling has been used to reduce the impact of failures and give flexibility, and the "overlap problem" at Cheadle Hulme (where you couldn't use the down Macclesfield platform if a route was set for Crewe-Stockport in either direction) was fixed by redesigning and relaying the points.

EDIT - I should add, this is from the perspective of an infrequent passenger, not as anyone who has to work with the new equipment!

Oh yes, it would be absolutely impossible to operate the current timetable at Cheadle Hulme without the remodelled layout.

Plus it is full bi-di between Cheadle Hulme and Sandbach which occasionally comes in handy.

 

[jfollows]

Crewe to Manchester Q paths via Warrington departing Crewe 10:13, 13:13, 16:13, 19:13 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...2020-09-19/0000-2359?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt

Manchester to Crewe Q paths departing Manchester 09:10, 12:10, 15:10. 18:10 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/MAN/to/CRE/2020-09-19/0000-2359?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt

Q - runs as required and not yet activated so not guaranteed to operate as timed. Since it looks like all the services can be operated by the same unit, if the 09:10 from Manchester runs then probably the rest will.

EDIT - Incorrect, there are more Manchester-Crewe services planned, looks like an hourly service, some are "VST" paths and some are "VVR", xx.10 from Manchester starting 1Z02 08:10 until 1Z12 18:10. Likewise in reverse from Crewe 1Z51 08:13 to 1Z62 19:13. 1Z51 appears to be in platform 1 at Crewe currently (08:08).

Update - both 1Z02 and 1Z51 currently (at 08:35) operating in both directions Crewe-Manchester

Looks like the "VST" Q paths aren't being used, so the Crewe-Manchester services are running hourly except at the times shown above.

 

[Jumpin]

Does anyone know which route the freighters are taking between crewe and trafford park

 

[Wyrleybart]

All of this can be summed up in one word though - "Ansaldo". How they keep winning contracts with their legacy of failures over the years astounds me.

Reminds me of another company once again in the news for shoddy perfomance.
How on earth do Serco keep winning contracts ? Might it be links between the political party in power and the directors in the case of Serco, obviously not Ansaldo.

 

[jfollows]

Does anyone know which route the freighters are taking between crewe and trafford park

According to post 15, they're taking the normal route over pointwork that has been secured to allow the passage of trains. Since they're generally timed only about hourly there is capacity for them.

Note that Open Train Times maps no longer show the passage of trains on areas controlled by MS, I noted this in an earlier post (post 45). They will show up on the sections of the route controlled by MP signals, in other words between Heald Green and Trafford Park.

There aren't many freight trains on a Saturday, but 4M21 03:15 Felixstowe-Trafford Park should currently be using the affected section. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H77497/2020-09-19/detailed

Although the attached diagram implies that 4M21 is at Styal, I think it's more likely that its headcode has been manually entered into the berth for MP 281 signal so that its description is picked up when the train actually gets there and is detected.

EDIT especially since a minute later it appears in the berth for MP 279, and it's unlikely that it went backwards in reality.

 

[craigybagel]

Reminds me of another company once again in the news for shoddy perfomance.
How on earth do Serco keep winning contracts ? Might it be links between the political party in power and the directors in the case of Serco, obviously not Ansaldo.

I believe with Ansaldo it's a price thing - they have legacies of failure all across the world n various projects where they were the lowest bidder - but ultimately failed to provide a reliable product.

 

[jfollows]

It may be completely irrelevant, but yesterday data provided to - for example - Open Train Times was showing the passage of trains and status of routes set over points through the MS-controlled area. Today this information is absent.

Again, it may not be relevant, but today (Saturday) the indication of the presence and movement of trains plus the status of routes between Stockport and Macclesfield has come back again.

 

[Jumpin]

According to post 15, they're taking the normal route over pointwork that has been secured to allow the passage of trains. Since they're generally timed only about hourly there is capacity for them.

Note that Open Train Times maps no longer show the passage of trains on areas controlled by MS, I noted this in an earlier post (post 45). They will show up on the sections of the route controlled by MP signals, in other words between Heald Green and Trafford Park.

There aren't many freight trains on a Saturday, but 4M21 03:15 Felixstowe-Trafford Park should currently be using the affected section. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H77497/2020-09-19/detailed

Although the attached diagram implies that 4M21 is at Styal, I think it's more likely that its headcode has been manually entered into the berth for MP 281 signal so that its description is picked up when the train actually gets there and is detected.

EDIT especially since a minute later it appears in the berth for MP 279, and it's unlikely that it went backwards in reality.

Thanks for that Jfellows. much appreciated

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The Manchester South fiasco was one of the nails in the Railtrack coffin - this one illustrated their inability to manage or supervise a third party contractor project.

Ansaldo managed to design and install a major resignalling design that did not comply with basic British signalling principles, in this case, by not providing flank protection (edit: or was it facing point locks? I forget.) IIRC it was only uncovered at the Cheadle Hulme commissioning stage, and required massively expensive redesign and reinstallation, and ultimately cancelled the remainder of the Manchester South project (which is why Stockport station is still controlled by multiple 19th century lever frame boxes complete with absolute block!

 

[jfollows]

I believe with Ansaldo it's a price thing - they have legacies of failure all across the world n various projects where they were the lowest bidder - but ultimately failed to provide a reliable product.

I ran more than one public procurement myself and it's important not to get hung up so much on price that you end up skewing the process too much towards the lowest bidder. The failing is usually then in the party running the tender, because if it's obvious that lowest price is going to win, that's what the bidders will aim for. At least, that was my feeling and I felt that I managed to overcome this challenge!

 

[Mag_seven]

The Manchester South fiasco was one of the nails in the Railtrack coffin - this one illustrated their inability to manage or supervise a third party contractor project.

Ansaldo managed to design and install a major resignalling design that did not comply with basic British signalling principles, in this case, by not providing flank protection (edit: or was it facing point locks? I forget.) IIRC it was only uncovered at the Cheadle Hulme commissioning stage, and required massively expensive redesign and reinstallation, and ultimately cancelled the remainder of the Manchester South project (which is why Stockport station is still controlled by multiple 19th century lever frame boxes complete with absolute block!

Interesting - I wouldn't have liked to have been the signalling engineer who was responsible for signing off the original signalling scheme plans!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I guess it was just the latest of a long run of disasters in the West Coast Route Modernisation. Remember the cost justification for the project was moving-block in-cab signalling with radio transmission permitting 140mph running, basically ETCS Level 3 signalling - by 2005. The maintenance saving of not having lineside signals in part justified the (original) cost of the overall project. That didn’t go well either!

 

[Bald Rick]

Remember the cost justification for the project was moving-block in-cab signalling with radio transmission permitting 140mph running, basically ETCS Level 3 signalling - by 2005.

That was in the original WCRM plan, but had been abandoned by 2000 (if not officially, then certainly within the project).

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

That was in the original WCRM plan, but had been abandoned by 2000 (if not officially, then certainly within the project).

Yes that’s right, the infamous Black Diamond review was when it started being canned I think. Railtrack ended up in a massive legal pickle with Virgin Trains as the franchise finances had been arranged on the basis of revenue for a 1hr Euston-Birmingham journey and 1h45 Euston-Manchester and the compensation for years after was what made Virgin West Coast such a lucrative business for Branson.

 

[Sweetjesus]

The situation appears to be improving, trains are incurring around 15 minutes of delay when going through the affected section.

 

[Signal Head]

The Manchester South fiasco was one of the nails in the Railtrack coffin - this one illustrated their inability to manage or supervise a third party contractor project.

Ansaldo managed to design and install a major resignalling design that did not comply with basic British signalling principles, in this case, by not providing flank protection (edit: or was it facing point locks? I forget.) IIRC it was only uncovered at the Cheadle Hulme commissioning stage, and required massively expensive redesign and reinstallation, and ultimately cancelled the remainder of the Manchester South project (which is why Stockport station is still controlled by multiple 19th century lever frame boxes complete with absolute block!

Various bits of British Signalling principles weren't catered for in the original interlocking design, flank protection may have been one, swinging overlaps another. Unlikely to be FPLs as they are built into the point machines and included in the detection, so not a separate bit of wiring or data.

Around the time the project was ongoing, I heard that one of the problems was the point calling. Whereas traditional (UK) relay interlockings, and SSI, will call all the points at the same time (or virtually so) Ansaldo (allegedly) calls one set, waits for it to throw, then calls the next set in the route, and so on. This meant there were routes at Stockport which would have taken around 30 seconds to set, which increased Junction occupation times and messed up the timetable.

Interesting - I wouldn't have liked to have been the signalling engineer who was responsible for signing off the original signalling scheme plans!

Nothing to do with the scheme plans, they are (or should be) effectively independent of the technology.

The PTB were those in Railtrack who invited Ansaldo in, in order to give the UK signalling contractors a kick in the pants as they were considered too expensive, without any thought as to whether the foreign kit could fulfil the requirements 'out of the box', and without expensive alterations to the core product. Probably the same idiots who believed in the existence of main line moving block...

Needless to say, by the time the project got up to its neck in la merda, they'd all 'moved on'.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes that’s right, the infamous Black Diamond review was when it started being canned I think. Railtrack ended up in a massive legal pickle with Virgin Trains as the franchise finances had been arranged on the basis of revenue for a 1hr Euston-Birmingham journey and 1h45 Euston-Manchester and the compensation for years after was what made Virgin West Coast such a lucrative business for Branson.

Nope it was canned long before Black Diamond. And there was never a proposal for a 1h London Birmingham or 1h45 London Manchester.

 

[jonnyfan]

The faults have been located and are in the process of being rectified (equipment within the signalling centre itself, I don't know what exactly though) - hopefully fully operational Sunday afternoon, with full services back Monday morning all being well

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Nope it was canned long before Black Diamond. And there was never a proposal for a 1h London Birmingham or 1h45 London Manchester.

There certainly was a 1h45m London-Manchester journey time objective under PUG2 and London-Glasgow ambition was 4h12m. ( See this link to download a Parliamentary report from 2010:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiwwdzDvPbrAhVYURUIHS80CRMQFjAKegQIBRAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fresearchbriefings.files.parliament.uk%2Fdocuments%2FSN00364%2FSN00364.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2V-GNJOLVbWIZMsA6cPMZI

The Wikipedia page suggests a 1h London-Birmingham journey time although I‘m struggling to find a source, although it does ring a bell and sound realistic alongside the Manchester figure.

 

[LOL The Irony]

which is why Stockport station is still controlled by multiple 19th century lever frame boxes complete with absolute block!

I recall seeing they had to get people from Indian Railways in to renovate the Stockport boxes on a Don Coffey video.