December 2020 Timetable Change

[Bikeman78]

Plenty of time for STP amendments yet, it is easier to have the base plan uploaded before you then amend it. In days before RTT this was all done before the timetable was visible to the public.

As for 745 availability, yes indeed, but there should be a few 755s spare if they are cleared for passenger service to Liverpool St by then.

I understand that but other TOCs, e.g. TFW, have uploaded the timetable that they actually plan to run. Greater Anglia clearly likes to keep its short term planners busy!

 

[306024]

I understand that but other TOCs, e.g. TFW, have uploaded the timetable that they actually plan to run. Greater Anglia clearly likes to keep its short term planners busy!

That is certainly true. But then the long term planners busy too looking at how to take advantage of the new trains.

There is a distinct cultural difference between the way the Great Western Railway (in old money) and former NSE TOCs approach the task. Out west they do like to have different ‘Long Term‘ plans in the same six month timetable period, but then inevitably end up with STP alterations on top anyway. The intensive commuter type TOCs keep it simple with one long term plan for 6 months and a STP plan to overlay as necessary.

 

[dk1]

Is there any reason why the 0040 Chester to Holyhead can’t be retimed slightly to say, 0053 then the 2351 ex Manchester (and 2006 ex Glasgow!) connections can be maintained?

It would keep me quiet anyway!

I suppose that just adds to more headaches awaiting connections or providing taxis for last trains of the day. Doubt there is much incentive for TfW to do this.

 

[bramling]

GTR GN now up.

Cursory glance shows the following:

* Kings Lynn 8-car happening. Most services north of Cambridge are now 8-car, still some dividing or joining at Cambridge to make up 12 cars mainly in the peaks.

* Most Peterborough peak services running as well as mid / late evening services. 387 stabling at Peterborough reduces slightly. There seems to be an error in there somewhere as at this moment the diagrams don’t quite balance.

* 3x Baldock services run in each peak (one morning peak of these starts from Royston). Two morning peak and one evening peak journeys change from 2x365 to 2x387

* No Welwyn to KX peak 700 services (presume Welwyn to Sevenoaks not happening?) and no Gordon Hill services

* Cambridge to KX stopping service reverts to normal MF pattern, with Royston reversing withdrawn. The midday Letchworth train resumes.

And, et, that’s about it. I will have a look at the weekend when I get time.

 

[bicbasher]

I'm starting to see some Southern uploaded as well.

So far I'm seeing the return of the London Bridge to Victoria services via Crystal Palace and the peak stoppers to Sutton via Forest Hill.

 

[arb]

* Kings Lynn 8-car happening. Most services north of Cambridge are now 8-car,

Nice as this is, if I can take a glass-half-empty view, it's a shame that there is no reduction in journey time from north of Cambridge to London because of this, at least on the random handful of trains I've looked at. The King's Lynn trains are still timetabled to wait for 5 or more minutes at Cambridge, even when there is now no joining or dividing happening.

Does anybody know if this December's change is simply a case of get the 8-car services running whilst deliberately not changing the timetable, and then look into timetable improvements later? Or has reducing the waiting time at Cambridge already been actively investigated and rejected due to timetabling constraints elsewhere (e.g. Ely, East Cost Mainline)?

 

[Bald Rick]

Nice as this is, if I can take a glass-half-empty view, it's a shame that there is no reduction in journey time from north of Cambridge to London because of this, at least on the random handful of trains I've looked at. The King's Lynn trains are still timetabled to wait for 5 or more minutes at Cambridge, even when there is now no joining or dividing happening.

Does anybody know if this December's change is simply a case of get the 8-car services running whilst deliberately not changing the timetable, and then look into timetable improvements later? Or has reducing the waiting time at Cambridge already been actively investigated and rejected due to timetabling constraints elsewhere (e.g. Ely, East Cost Mainline)?

The recast is linked to the ECML recast. But there will always be the issue of matching their paths on the ECML (and through Welwyn) with the paths on the single line sections north of Ely.

 

[PHILIPE]

I understand that but other TOCs, e.g. TFW, have uploaded the timetable that they actually plan to run. Greater Anglia clearly likes to keep its short term planners busy!

The TFW Timetable as shown seems to be the current COVID Timetable with missing HOWL services replaced and a rehash on the Cardiff Valleys to enable Rhymney services to run to Penarth so 769s can slot in and Treherberts to run to Bridgend in lieu. There are some ECS variations in the Wrexham area which, I presume, are for 230s to slot in.

 

[arb]

The recast is linked to the ECML recast. But there will always be the issue of matching their paths on the ECML (and through Welwyn) with the paths on the single line sections north of Ely.

Thanks, that makes sense. I hadn't realised there was a recast of the ECML planned - when is that scheduled for? Thinking about it, would I be right in guessing that it will be when the "Kings Uncrossed" engineering work is finished?

 

[Llandudno]

I suppose that just adds to more headaches awaiting connections or providing taxis for last trains of the day. Doubt there is much incentive for TfW to do this.

If operators and planners had that attitude they may as well give 60 minute connections on all services and not bother running any trains after 6pm in case people get stranded!

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks, that makes sense. I hadn't realised there was a recast of the ECML planned - when is that scheduled for? Thinking about it, would I be right in guessing that it will be when the "Kings Uncrossed" engineering work is finished?

And Werrington, and some power supply upgrades. May 22 I think.

 

[The Planner]

Is there any reason why the 0040 Chester to Holyhead can’t be retimed slightly to say, 0053 then the 2351 ex Manchester (and 2006 ex Glasgow!) connections can be maintained?

It would keep me quiet anyway!

It is to beat the engineering blocks I suspect, blocks come on at 0115.

 

[RT4038]

If operators and planners had that attitude they may as well give 60 minute connections on all services and not bother running any trains after 6pm in case people get stranded!

Yes they could, but I think you are going a little over the top. I would also expect operators to engage in risk mitigation, especially late at night If it was your money being paid out, you would!

 

[TheBigD]

Nice as this is, if I can take a glass-half-empty view, it's a shame that there is no reduction in journey time from north of Cambridge to London because of this, at least on the random handful of trains I've looked at. The King's Lynn trains are still timetabled to wait for 5 or more minutes at Cambridge, even when there is now no joining or dividing happening.

Does anybody know if this December's change is simply a case of get the 8-car services running whilst deliberately not changing the timetable, and then look into timetable improvements later? Or has reducing the waiting time at Cambridge already been actively investigated and rejected due to timetabling constraints elsewhere (e.g. Ely, East Cost Mainline)?

For most of the day the King's Lynn services are booked to pass at Littleport. You'd need to extend the double track northwards from Littleport a few miles towards Downham Market to be able to speed up the current schedules (without even considering the associated impact at Ely North Jn etc).

In the peaks when a half hourly service runs north of Ely, the extra services pass between Magdalen Road and Downham Market. If you speed up the northbound or southbound service you'd also need to extend the double track north of Magdalen Road.

A good few years ago, before Cambridge North opened and the Thameslink service changes*, the services were booked to pass at Downham Market, with the London bound service often having to wait for the northbound service to come off the single line from Littleport. When the service was recast it changed to Littleport improving performance and allowing an extra stop at Cambridge North, but at the expense of adding around 10 minutes to most journeys between the Fen Line stations and Cambridge/London.

* Can't remember which timetable change it was.

 

[dk1]

Yes they could, but I think you are going a little over the top. I would also expect operators to engage in risk mitigation, especially late at night If it was your money being paid out, you would!

I concur.

 

[GTR fail]

I am rather surprised that the Welwyn to Kings Cross peaks are not back yet - the alternative services are reasonably heavy loaded particularly in the evening

GTR GN now up.

Cursory glance shows the following:

* Kings Lynn 8-car happening. Most services north of Cambridge are now 8-car, still some dividing or joining at Cambridge to make up 12 cars mainly in the peaks.

* Most Peterborough peak services running as well as mid / late evening services. 387 stabling at Peterborough reduces slightly. There seems to be an error in there somewhere as at this moment the diagrams don’t quite balance.

* 3x Baldock services run in each peak (one morning peak of these starts from Royston). Two morning peak and one evening peak journeys change from 2x365 to 2x387

* No Welwyn to KX peak 700 services (presume Welwyn to Sevenoaks not happening?) and no Gordon Hill services

* Cambridge to KX stopping service reverts to normal MF pattern, with Royston reversing withdrawn. The midday Letchworth train resumes.

And, et, that’s about it. I will have a look at the weekend when I get time.

 

[387star]

No GTR services in the feeds yet at all. That's no Southern, Thameslink or South-Eastern

Didn't southern want to axe these? Perhaps because they require a guard between Guildford and Dorking

 

[73128]

On that point, it will be interesting to see what printed material (if any) TOCs produce for the December timetable change this year.

Some stations (e.g. Didcot Parkway) have printed timetable posters M-F dated from September to December, but most have nothing. I hope that we get printed pocket timetables back.

 

[bramling]

I am rather surprised that the Welwyn to Kings Cross peaks are not back yet - the alternative services are reasonably heavy loaded particularly in the evening

I've had a spare few moments to go through things and work out what's what. What's in there doesn't *quite* add up, although I've just about found a way to make everything balance, but I'm not sure if I've got it quite right. So the below should be treated with a small dose of caution!

It seems there's a swap round of some of the Peterborough peak services, so some which are currently 365 change to 387, and vice versa. One morning peak service up and down service is missing, whilst the full evening down service is there. One evening Peterborough to KX service is also missing.

There's some changes to lengths of the 387 services inwards of Cambridge, including some which reduce from 12 to 8 (mainly contra peak workings). The vast majority north of Cambridge are 8, with just the odd 4-car.

There are three Baldock services in each peak. In the morning peak two of these will be 2x387, whilst in the evening peak one will be 2x387. None of the evening Baldock services run.

It looks like the 2312 KX to Peterborough *may* reduce to 4-car, though I might have got this wrong.

Outwardly what's in RTTT isn't quite correct as I can't make the stock balance without using a Q path, which shouldn't have to happen. So I suspect there may be the odd edit to happen.

They don't seem to be making much of a saving in rolling stock, as the missing services means they're still using pretty much the same number of trains. Many of the 365 diagrams will be doing just one peak-flow trip. I presume this has been written in a way which makes a slight reduction in the number of drivers required, it's obvious they've concentrated on the core services, which is why some peak Peterboroughs, Baldocks, Welwyns and Gordon Hills are missing.

All in all to be honest it's a bit of a mess, but it will no doubt do the job for the time being. From March things change again for the KX blockade.

When I get to see the actual diagram prints I will be able to have a proper look, and no doubt the odd correction to the above will occur.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Avanti West Coast are serving Motherwell more frequently from December albeit a very unbalanced frequency.

For example, it is showing a gap between the following:
1M09 08:52 Motherwell - London Euston
1M12 11:51 Motherwell - London Euston
9M55 12:13 Motherwell - London Euston via Birmingham

Is there really or will there be that much demand to have the majority of southbound London services call at Motherwell? From experience nobody really gets on there anyway.

Northbound seems to be even less stable with services arriving at:

13:03, 14:59, 19:00, 19:05, 21:28, 21:47, 22:53

I do think adding in such a frequent Motherwell stop is a little bit silly given the current situation. Another thing is that the Crewe stop is being taken out and the trains will be back to running fast from Warrington as well as Glasgow getting it's Birmingham service again.

TransPennine seem to be operating a reduced timetable from Glasgow:

04:22 Glasgow Central - Manchester Airport
07:09 Glasgow Central - Manchester Airport
09:06 Glasgow Central - Manchester Airport
12:04 Glasgow Central - Liverpool Lime Street
15:08 Glasgow Central - Manchester Airport
17:08 Glasgow Central - Manchester Airport

Majority of TPE services are back up and running from December, however there seems to be a lack of Liverpool trains, with the departure at around 8am and 4pm missing, as well as the 11:08 and 13:08 Manchester services. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't TPE also operate a later service to Preston or Manchester at around 7pm which is also missing?

 

[717001]

I've had a spare few moments to go through things and work out what's what. What's in there doesn't *quite* add up, although I've just about found a way to make everything balance, but I'm not sure if I've got it quite right. So the below should be treated with a small dose of caution!

Believe the current GN/TL M-F timetable is still basically "Sat plus", but the Dec one is "M-F minus", which will account for some of the changes.

 

[bramling]

Believe the current GN/TL M-F timetable is still basically "Sat plus", but the Dec one is "M-F minus", which will account for some of the changes.

Yes that seems to be absolutely the case. The base timetable is definitely based on MF.

 

[Minstral25]

Yes that seems to be absolutely the case. The base timetable is definitely based on MF.

The current timetable is based on Sat plus - which meant we missed a lot of extensions locally around Redhill. When challenged they said it could not change until it went M-F basis in December. Hence we have had some overloaded trains. Good to see first draft of new timetable is putting the Gatwick extensions back in.

 

[jamieintercity]

Scotrail and LNER have theirs up, don't see many changes on scotrail. Presumably waiting til May next year for the big changes involving the intercity routes

On LNER, The Sunday's 0910 Edinburgh to Aberdeen doesn't appear to be running
The monday to fridays 1400 London to Aberdeen doesn't appear to be running

On cross country, only 6 trains appear to be running to/from glasgow Central.
The Aberdeen services appear to no longer call at arbroath, Montrose and stonehaven northbound and miss all fife stops both ways

 

[philjo]

GTR GN now up.

Cursory glance shows the following:

* Cambridge to KX stopping service reverts to normal MF pattern, with Royston reversing withdrawn. The midday Letchworth train resumes.

The northbound Cambridge stoppers will leave Kings Cross 6 minutes earlier at xx:22 and XX:52. It looks like they leave WGC at the current timings.

 

[Gaz55]

Just seen on Twitter that all Cleethorpes to Piccadilly services will run hourly as 6 car fornations from December.

 

[Bikeman78]

The northbound Cambridge stoppers will leave Kings Cross 6 minutes earlier at xx:22 and XX:52. It looks like they leave WGC at the current timings.

They are reverting to the pre Covid timings. At the moment the King's Cross to Cambridge stoppers pass Belle Isle junction after the Cambridge to Brighton trains have passed. Not sure why this cannot continue from December.

 

[Peter0124]

In terms of Scotrail on my local route (Motherwell/Larkhall-Dalmuir/Milngavie) there are some noticable changes:

Monday-Saturday:
All Hamilton Circle services now run to Dalmuir only:
Westbound:
Previously the 2Fxx Motherwell/Cumbernauld to Dalmuir ran via Yoker, it now runs via Singer.
The 2Lxx Larkhall-Milngavie service no longer runs to Milngavie, instead Dalmuir via Yoker.
The 2Sxx Whifflet line trains still go to Dalmuir but run via Yoker instead of via Singer.
I don't get why the 2Fxx services from Cumbernauld/Motherwell westbound go via Singer when they previously went via Yoker anyway, the 2Lxx Larkhall trains should go via Singer imo.
The 2Vxx Springburn-Dumbarton Central service runs to Milngavie instead, basically replacing the trains from Larkhall to Milngavie. This means that Bearsden/Hillfoot/Milngavie can only be served by trains via Queen Street. It also means that Kilpatrick/Bowling which were normally served by these Springburn trains only, are now part of the Airdrie-Balloch route.

Eastbound:
2Cxx Milngavie-Motherwell/Cumbernauld starts from Dalmuir instead, running via Yoker. it is in the path of the old Dalmuir-WhiffletLine service as far as Rutherglen. Main departing times at Glasgow Central being xx.27, xx.57 or thereabouts
2Lxx Dalmuir-Larkhall is the same as before, running via Singer.
2Rxx Dalmuir-WhiffletLine still runs via Yoker but from Hyndland onwards it is in the path of the old Milngavie-Motherwell service, with the main departing times at Glasgow Central being xx.04, xx.34 or thereabouts.

However during the evening/night time after 20:00. Milngavie-Motherwell/Cumbernauld operates again, using the units off the Springburn services. Larkhall-Milngavie runs again too.
There is also one train which does Milngavie-Motherwell via Carmyle and the whifflet line which normally never happened:

Realtime Trains - 2R22 2008 Milngavie to Motherwell

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Also there are no Friday night extra services stilll.

When I have more time I will have a look into the services more fully but that is what I can see from RTT.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Just seen on Twitter that all Cleethorpes to Piccadilly services will run hourly as 6 car fornations from December.

There were only 2 hours completely missing, but I presume you mean that the Doncasters are being extended to the coast once again.

 

[james60059]

The BHM - LEI corridor looks largely unchanged, principally an hourly BHM - LEI service with alternate extensions to CBG, although 3tpd continue to SSD (06:22/12:22/19:22 ex-BHM) as per now.