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Our total reliance on a vaccine and putting life on hold until it's rolled out

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Bletchleyite

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Didn't someone once say that the definition of madness was doing the same thing over & over again and expecting different results? Asking for a friend....

Who says I want different results? The original lockdown was clearly successful in achieving its aim, to bring cases back down, not what some people seemed to imagine or hope would be the aim.

Assuming the full costs of this eternal war on the virus are considered in a sober fashion without resort to overly emotional appeals to "save the photogenic pensioners"

As with a decision on what to do when someone is killed, emotion should be kept out (though the usual formulae for "years of quality life saved" used in the NHS should certainly be referred to).
 
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43066

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As with a decision on what to do when someone is killed, emotion should be kept out (though the usual formulae for "years of quality life saved" used in the NHS should certainly be referred to).

Nobody ever seems to be prepared to admit to that, as we have seen in discussions on this forum! There is no distinction being drawn between extending the life of an elderly and/or very unwell person and saving the life of someone much younger.
 

bramling

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Who says I want different results? The original lockdown was clearly successful in achieving its aim, to bring cases back down, not what some people seemed to imagine or hope would be the aim.

We can’t judge the success of the original lockdown, as we were never told what the objective was. If for example the objective was “send this virus packing in 12 weeks” then it completely failed.

Indeed it went on quite a bit longer than most people expected, and I remember we were discussing here earlier in the summer how it hadn’t actually brought case numbers down as low as we perhaps hoped or expected.

It would seem a lockdown is a hurrendously expensive way of buying time. If that is to be done then there needs to be something really worthwhile being done with that time. Instead we got eat out to help out, or should that be “eat out to help kickstart the virus in time for winter”?!
 

Bletchleyite

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But it wasn't successful, it simply delayed the numbers going up.

It was successful; it caused numbers to come down. If we did it again now, it'd do the same thing.

You can consider separately whether the economic damage was worthwhile, but as an anti-COVID measure it did exactly what it was supposed to do.

Instead we got eat out to help out, or should that be “eat out to help kickstart the virus in time for winter”?!

I suspect that was a fallacy; the big increase in cases (rather than the linear increase which was partly caused by increased testing) happened when kids went back to school, and then shot up off the scale when students went back. It's clear education (and associated socialising) was the main issue, and yet we sit there, fingers in ears, singing "la la la", unwilling to address that for fear of upsetting someone's kids (kids who tend to be much more resilient than the adults who are actually getting upset).

My view is that if schools had been redesigned for 2m (or even 1m) distancing, perhaps by operating 6 days a week with 3 in 3 out to halve numbers in at any given time, and that if universities went "stay at home and do online only, and we'll arrange specific lab access opportunities, perhaps by cooperation between universities to do it in your most local one that can", that we'd not have been in a vastly worse position now than in August.
 

kristiang85

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It was successful; it caused numbers to come down. If we did it again now, it'd do the same thing.

You can consider separately whether the economic damage was worthwhile, but as an anti-COVID measure it did exactly what it was supposed to do.

I'm pretty sure that the government money used on all aspects of lockdown would have been of much better use improving NHS frontline staffing, healthcare quality and facilities, and probably would have achieved the same medium-term result with COVID. With a lot of change to spare.

Now we are going to have a skint country and a skint NHS, which in the long term is going to be incredibly harmful.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm pretty sure that the government money used on all aspects of lockdown would have been of much better use improving NHS frontline staffing, healthcare quality and facilities, and probably would have achieved the same medium-term result with COVID. With a lot of change to spare.

Yes, but we'd have had the short-term problem of a large number of deaths. 250K might have been overblown, but certainly more than we've had.
 

Bantamzen

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It was successful; it caused numbers to come down. If we did it again now, it'd do the same thing.

You can consider separately whether the economic damage was worthwhile, but as an anti-COVID measure it did exactly what it was supposed to do.

If you locked everyone up in their homes for a month, the infection rates would come back down. But when you let people out, the numbers go up. Lockdowns merely push back the problem, if you don't have a proper strategy to deal with the consequences of the virus. i.e. identifying those most at risk and focusing on them, then you enter a potentially never ending cycle of lockdown off, lockdown on. That is not the making of a successful strategy.
 

kristiang85

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Yes, but we'd have had the short-term problem of a large number of deaths. 250K might have been overblown, but certainly more than we've had.

I don't think many more would have died than have done so already, if you look at all the immunity hypotheses out there (which is being borne out by reality). But I know we will need to agree to disagree on that.

Also if you look at the article I just posted in the media thread, the current deaths could be an overestimate anyway (5k were already removed with very little fanfare over the summer).
 

MikeWM

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I don't think many more would have died than have done so already, if you look at all the immunity hypotheses out there (which is being borne out by reality). But I know we will need to agree to disagree on that.

Indeed, Oxford researchers found no correlation whatsoever between severity (or lack thereof) of lockdown and numbers of deaths. See this graph.

1603371149441.png
 

bramling

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I'm pretty sure that the government money used on all aspects of lockdown would have been of much better use improving NHS frontline staffing, healthcare quality and facilities, and probably would have achieved the same medium-term result with COVID. With a lot of change to spare.

Now we are going to have a skint country and a skint NHS, which in the long term is going to be incredibly harmful.

The amount of money now being sloshed around is frightening to be honest. And the worst of it is we seem to have got naff-all really in return for it. How many new hospitals, or for that matter new Crossrail schemes, could we have had?

And the worst of it is that we’re now bumbling along in a rut where unless a vaccine emerges pretty soon we could find ourselves doing this again after Christmas, as this course of action now seems to be the expectation (in some quarters at least). How on earth is all this going to be financed?

We don’t actually know if lockdown really saved that many lives, as shielding came in at roughly the same time. It’s quite possible that the bulk of lives saved came as a result of that.
 

43066

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I'm pretty sure that the government money used on all aspects of lockdown would have been of much better use improving NHS frontline staffing, healthcare quality and facilities, and probably would have achieved the same medium-term result with COVID. With a lot of change to spare.

Now we are going to have a skint country and a skint NHS, which in the long term is going to be incredibly harmful.

Yep. The harsh reality is we will be getting the same number of deaths anyway, just from other causes, and over a longer period.

Instead of treating us all like children, a more honest government would have better prepared us for the fact that a lot of people were sadly going to die, because that’s what happens during pandemics, and built hospital and mortuary capacity.
 

DB

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It was successful; it caused numbers to come down. If we did it again now, it'd do the same thing.

When it started we were just coming to the end of the winter respiratory infections season, so summer is bound to have had a significant impact on this - how much is obviously not going to be measurable, but there's no guarantee that doing the same thing at this time of year would have the same impact.
 

kristiang85

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Yep. The harsh reality is we will be getting the same number of deaths anyway, just from other causes, and over a longer period.

Instead of treating us all like children, a more honest government would have better prepared us for the fact that a lot of people were sadly going to die, because that’s what happens during pandemics, and built hospital and mortuary capacity.

Yep. We are currently below the average deaths at the moment. There's no indication this will change anytime soon, and come year end 2020 might well look like an average year, even with the excess deaths spike in April.

Indeed, Oxford researchers found no correlation whatsoever between severity (or lack thereof) of lockdown and numbers of deaths. See this graph.

View attachment 84923

That's a great graph. Though I'm interested to know how the X axis is worked out, as it seems to put as as 'more severe' than Spain and Italy, which I can't believe.
 

Bantamzen

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It's an option.

Not if you then start to look at the economic impact. Stop-start lockdown strategies are going to impact in all sorts of areas, reduce tax revenue, cost jobs etc etc. And if there is doubt as when, or indeed if a vaccine is going to be available & effective, then you are going to have to think long & hard about it.
 

MikeWM

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That's a great graph. Though I'm interested to know how the X axis is worked out, as it seems to put as as 'more severe' than Spain and Italy, which I can't believe.

It looks like a fairly complex composite measure of a number of tracked data points. Details are here https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/research/research-projects/coronavirus-government-response-tracker

The OxCGRT project calculate a Government Stringency Index, a composite measure of nine of the response metrics.


The nine metrics used to calculate the Government Stringency Index are: school closures; workplace closures; cancellation of public events; restrictions on public gatherings; closures of public transport; stay-at-home requirements; public information campaigns; restrictions on internal movements; and international travel controls.
 

yorkie

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It's an option.
Says someone in a well paid, work from home job. If you were a low paid cleaner working in the hospitality sector, you'd likely have a different view.

Lockdowns are a luxury for those who can afford it, but a travesty for younger/poorer/disadvantaged people, or those who work in sectors such as entertainment/hospitality and more.
 

DustyBin

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I don't think many more would have died than have done so already, if you look at all the immunity hypotheses out there (which is being borne out by reality). But I know we will need to agree to disagree on that.

In addition, we don't know if the damage was already done when we went into lockdown. The virus had been circulating unabated since February (possibly January) so there's a good chance that many of the most vulnerable were already infected. I'm not suggesting the first lockdown did nothing, only that other factors may well have contributed to the subsequest reduction in deaths (which is what we were measuring at the time). Regardless of this, I don't think regular lockdowns are a viable strategy. As it stands, herd immunity is our only way out, be it through natural transmission or a vaccine; the question is how long can we afford to wait for the latter? I know I'm repeating myself, but we know who is vulnerbale so our efforts should be directed towards protecting them as best we can while the rest of us get to work rebuilding our economy and society.
 

Yew

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Unfortunately, I think that any calls for "what will we look back on in ten years as the best (or least-worst) option" would not be met with reasoned and analytical rebuttals.
 

DustyBin

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Hancock has just told parliment that 1 in 20 infections result in 'long covid' and that the number rises to 1 in 10 in the under 50's. He was unable to explain how he arrived at these figures when pressed.... But we should be afraid, very afraid regardless....
 

trebor79

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I suspect that was a fallacy; the big increase in cases (rather than the linear increase which was partly caused by increased testing) happened when kids went back to school, and then shot up off the scale when students went back. It's clear education (and associated socialising) was the main issue, and yet we sit there, fingers in ears, singing "la la la", unwilling to address that for fear of upsetting someone's kids (kids who tend to be much more resilient than the adults who are actually getting upset).

My view is that if schools had been redesigned for 2m (or even 1m) distancing, perhaps by operating 6 days a week with 3 in 3 out to halve numbers in at any given time, and that if universities went "stay at home and do online only, and we'll arrange specific lab access opportunities, perhaps by cooperation between universities to do it in your most local one that can", that we'd not have been in a vastly worse position now than in August.
My view is that had government used the time that the lockdown bought at vast expense to actually build a "world class" test, trace and isolate system that we would be in a considerably better position than now. Long term harmful changes to educational settings are not sustainable and shouldn't be considered. About the one decent (non-)decision the government has made is for schools and universities to operate largely as normal. It's absolutely essential that people are properly educated.
"Blended learning" just does not work as well as traditional methods. It's a bit like al of the hooha over Kindles and other e-readers - widely predicted to be the deathknell for physical books. What happened? Most people realised it's not as pleasant or effective reading from a screen and these devices are gathering dust, meanwhile book sales are higher than ever. I know that I personally find it almost impossible to absorb factual information off a screen. For example, if I'm learning a new computer language, it takes me far longer if the teaching resource is online - give me a good textbook that I can quickly flip between pages, put notes in etc and I'm happy.

But really all of the expense and societal and personal sacrifice incurred by lockdown and everything since has been utterly squandered. We have a test and trace system that is performs so poorly it's basically useless, no protection for the vulnerable, huge waiting lists for other conditions, whole sectors of the economy "unviable", a ballooning national debt, shrinking tax take and huge swaths of workers wages being subsidised. It's really only a matter of time before this house of cards collapses and the results will make the anguish caused by a disease that is dangerous only to the very old look like a teddy bears picnic.
I'm pretty sure that the government money used on all aspects of lockdown would have been of much better use improving NHS frontline staffing, healthcare quality and facilities, and probably would have achieved the same medium-term result with COVID. With a lot of change to spare.

Now we are going to have a skint country and a skint NHS, which in the long term is going to be incredibly harmful.
I'm sure you've seen the video of the 83-year old lady interviewed on the streets of Bolton, who delivers a damming assessment of the government response to COVID and ends with "...and who's going to be paying for it all in the future? They young. Not me, I'll be dead".
 

Yew

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I know that I personally find it almost impossible to absorb factual information off a screen. For example, if I'm learning a new computer language, it takes me far longer if the teaching resource is online - give me a good textbook that I can quickly flip between pages, put notes in etc and I'm happy.

Slightly off-topic, but I'm completely the opposite, online resources are excellent, I'd recommend this as a good example https://quii.gitbook.io/learn-go-with-tests/
 

kristiang85

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Hancock has just told parliment that 1 in 20 infections result in 'long covid' and that the number rises to 1 in 10 in the under 50's. He was unable to explain how he arrived at these figures when pressed.... But we should be afraid, very afraid regardless....

He's mad. Post viral syndrome is a well known consequence of all viral infections for some people, and I just looked up stats on a time-based Google search from pre-COVID times (as data now might be presented in a skewed way), and this little gem pops up at the top of the results:

Overall, evidence suggests a population prevalence of at least 0.2-0.4%. This means that a general practice with 10,000 patients is likely to include up to 40 people with CFS/ME; half of these people will need input from specialist services."

This seems suspiciously close to the current COVID prevalence at the moment. So it will be very easy to attribute any PVS to COVID, even though only a small number of COVID patients will actually get it. Him saying "people without COVID symptoms can also get it" only strengthens my assertion on this, as it could well be a false positive.

I'm sure you've seen the video of the 83-year old lady interviewed on the streets of Bolton, who delivers a damming assessment of the government response to COVID and ends with "...and who's going to be paying for it all in the future? They young. Not me, I'll be dead".

Yes I did. She sums it up in a nutshell. I almost chuckled, but given how true it was and the ramifications on society, it really wasn't something to laugh at.
 

HSTEd

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My view is that had government used the time that the lockdown bought at vast expense to actually build a "world class" test, trace and isolate system that we would be in a considerably better position than now.

The fallacy of the magical track and trace that can keep the disease in check.
There isn't really any such system in existance and I am entirely skeptical that such a system can exist without resort to outright gestapo tactics.
 

Yew

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He's mad. Post viral syndrome is a well known consequence of all viral infections for some people, and I just looked up stats on a time-based Google search from pre-COVID times (as data now might be presented in a skewed way), and this little gem pops up at the top of the results:

I think his numbers were from that lady who did 'science' by asking her twitter followers, and then getting other followers to review it?
 

Bantamzen

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Hancock has just told parliment that 1 in 20 infections result in 'long covid' and that the number rises to 1 in 10 in the under 50's. He was unable to explain how he arrived at these figures when pressed.... But we should be afraid, very afraid regardless....

What a load of <bleep><bleep>.....

Honestly, will this lot stop at nothing? One in ten under 50's? Who do they think they are kidding? From what I've read thus far, the most common post-covid complaint is fatigue. Well guess what, we are all bloody fatigued with our lives so disrupted. The chances are for most long-covid is just the result of not being able to get outside for at least two weeks whilst having flu-like symptoms, which always leave people feeling crap afterwards.

Pure, unadulterated fear mongering. Hancock has to go before he turns us into a nation of neurotics too afraid to leave our homes (and there are already many of these).
 

trebor79

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The fallacy of the magical track and trace that can keep the disease in check.
There isn't really any such system in existance and I am entirely skeptical that such a system can exist without resort to outright gestapo tactics.
I don't disagree with you. But there isn't a hope in hell of it working when it takes 4 days for a test result to be returned, then there are the stories of people being rung 60 times by contact tracers to tell them to isolate. The system clearly doesn't work.

Fast test results.
Contact tracing done ASAP, people contacted once and TOLD to isolate. Commandeer all the empty hotels and put people in them to isolate, with 100% wage payment from the government to ensure they aren't financially worse off. Everybody else carry on as normal, no need to shut down entire industries and therefore have to pay millions of wages indefinitely (and as we've seen in Scotland and elsewhere that doesn't even dent transmission).
Might stand a chance if you started from a sufficiently low level of say a few hundred positive tests a day like in the summer. It's an impossible task starting from the current position.

It'll be interesting to see what happens next actually.

What a load of <bleep><bleep>.....

Honestly, will this lot stop at nothing? One in ten under 50's? Who do they think they are kidding? From what I've read thus far, the most common post-covid complaint is fatigue. Well guess what, we are all bloody fatigued with our lives so disrupted. The chances are for most long-covid is just the result of not being able to get outside for at least two weeks whilst having flu-like symptoms, which always leave people feeling crap afterwards.

Pure, unadulterated fear mongering. Hancock has to go before he turns us into a nation of neurotics too afraid to leave our homes (and there are already many of these).
Yes, I'm incredibly fatigued at the moment. But that's what 10 hours a day of computer work and zoom meetings does to you, with only 2 physical work meetings since mid-March (used to do several a week) to break up the monotony. I didn't sleep at all on Monday night, and managed about 3 hours last night. Really I find myself in a state of ennui and wondering what it's all for. If I wasn't married with kids I'd be seriously tempted to sell up and go and live in the woods somewhere remote and do something meaningful with my life, like enjoy nature.
 

Domh245

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Yep. We are currently below the average deaths at the moment. There's no indication this will change anytime soon, and come year end 2020 might well look like an average year, even with the excess deaths spike in April.

We've been at above average in terms of deaths for the past few weeks (though not by much, certainly well within the sort of expected range). It'd take a miracle for the year to end up anywhere near normal in terms of deaths as we're at about +54000 for the year
 
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