England's new three-tier lockdown system

[Bantamzen]

Sigh, West Yorkshire in Tier 3 from Monday...

Makes me ‘safer’ being at work in Harrogate than working from home!

Yep, and having just talked to a mate who earlier this week told me both he and his wife had lost their jobs because of the uncertainty surrounding this decision I am raging. This part of the world has been harder & longer hit by restrictions, and the economic fallout, so this is another kick in the balls.

I would have at least some understanding if there was any evidence these lockdowns work, but they don't. So I say simply this, *@#& the government.

Edit: And the NHS app has now been deprived of it's Bluetooth access. I played by the rules, but no more.

 

[Andyh82]

Absolutely - parts of the Bradford district have been under varying forms of enhanced restrictions since July yet cases are still rising. So either the measures are ineffective or people aren't adhering to them, but either way it's clearly not a sustainable way to continue. So far Boris is ignoring the lockdown extremists, but with France and Germany now returning to some form of lockdown, it does feel more likely we'll have further (unsustainable) restrictions imposed at a time of year when sadly depression and suicide already increases.

Well if people in Bradford are adhering to the rules as much as they famously adhere to the rules of the road, I don’t hold out too much hope.

That’s the problem with restrictions, those who obey, end up with more and more restrictions, and those that don’t obey, just keep on doing what they are doing, in turn causing even more restrictions that they also don’t adhere to

 

[DB]

That’s the problem with restrictions, those who obey, end up with more and more restrictions, and those that don’t obey, just keep on doing what they are doing, in turn causing even more restrictions that they also don’t adhere to

You are assuming that the restrictions actually work if the aim is to reduce infection numbers - and there's little evidence of that for most of them.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well if people in Bradford are adhering to the rules as much as they famously adhere to the rules of the road, I don’t hold out too much hope.

That’s the problem with restrictions, those who obey, end up with more and more restrictions, and those that don’t obey, just keep on doing what they are doing, in turn causing even more restrictions that they also don’t adhere to

What a load of nonsense, and frankly quite offensive to boot.

 

[43066]

Well if people in Bradford are adhering to the rules as much as they famously adhere to the rules of the road, I don’t hold out too much hope.

That’s the problem with restrictions, those who obey, end up with more and more restrictions, and those that don’t obey, just keep on doing what they are doing, in turn causing even more restrictions that they also don’t adhere to

No, the problem is that many of the restrictions very evidently aren’t doing any good, and some may well be making things worse. They are also confusing and contradictory and this has (understandably) caused many to either ignore them, or simply pay lip service.

 

[Andyh82]

Apologies if you think it was offensive but as a Bradford resident you must surely be tired of the city constantly being at the top or bottom of any list on any topic

No, the problem is that many of the restrictions very evidently aren’t doing any good, and some may well be making things worse. They are also confusing and contradictory and this has (understandably) caused many to either ignore them, or simply pay lip service.

That sounds like an argument for a full lock down!

I do wonder if the reason for the tiers not working is because of people not adhering to the rules though. If you are obeying the rules, I can’t see how so many people keep testing positive, who are they catching it off and in what setting?

 

[DB]

Apologies if you think it was offensive but as a Bradford resident you must surely be tired of the city constantly being at the top or bottom of any list on any topic

That sounds like an argument for a full lock down!

I do wonder if the reason for the tiers not working is because of people not adhering to the rules though. If you are obeying the rules, I can’t see how so many people keep testing positive, who are they catching it off and in what setting?

No, it's an argument to cut down on the restrictions.

People are out and about - they are going to work, many have kids who are going to school. It's now prime respiratory virus season, and this is a fairly easily-transmitted virus. It's going to spread, simple as that.

 

[yorksrob]

I do wonder if the reason for the tiers not working is because of people not adhering to the rules though. If you are obeying the rules, I can’t see how so many people keep testing positive, who are they catching it off and in what setting?

There's no point wondering. The rules won't make any difference if they have all the school children and employees of various kinds, mixing and taking the virus home with them.

 

[43066]

That sounds like an argument for a full lock down!

Definitely not! We know that lockdowns are a delaying tactic rather than a solution. We cannot afford to keep locking down. We also now know a lot more about the virus, who the vulnerable are etc. So blindly carrying on with the same approach as in the spring (when less was known) is utter madness.

I do wonder if the reason for the tiers not working is because of people not adhering to the rules though. If you are obeying the rules, I can’t see how so many people keep testing positive, who are they catching it off and in what setting?

I think the tiers are both confusing and confused. I’m convinced a lot of the measures are actually making things worse - everyone is now packing onto crowded trains after 10pm kick out time, rather than journeys home being staggered. Masks clearly do not make any meaningful difference in reducing infection - yet are equally obviously causing people to relax on things like distancing.

Basically normal life as a functional society is completely unsustainable with many of these restrictions. Schools had to go back - and are clearly a major source of infection - but we cannot continue to close schools down and deprive children of an education.

I went shopping earlier, navigated a maze of one way systems to be told I couldn’t try anything on in the fitting rooms. I therefore bought two pairs of trousers and will take the ones that don’t fit back - a completely pointless trip back to the shop. The same shop was apparently quite happy for me to try on pullovers and jackets etc. on the main shop floor. It’s utterly farcical and simply not thought through properly.

People are out and about - they are going to work, many have kids who are going to school. It's now prime respiratory virus season, and this is a fairly easily-transmitted virus. It's going to spread, simple as that.

Exactly. What’s most damning of all of the fact that this ludicrous government has spent the summer spinning its wheels instead of preparing for the inevitable rise in cases we have always known will occur in the autumn.

 

[BJames]

That sounds like an argument for a full lock down!

Just to reiterate David's point - no.

The fact of the matter is that people are generally not complying anymore because a) they can't afford to, either economically or mentally, b) they don't even understand what rules they're supposed to be following and c) because these restrictions do not actually help stop the spread of the virus. It is too late, too far past that stage now. Implementing a full lockdown in this country again would be at great economic cost for no medical gain as people will not comply in the same way they did the first time. I firmly believe that all these "calls for a second national lockdown" are from less than 1% of the population who are just expressing themselves more vocally but are also given more media time and attention than those who do not support.

It's like how Tier 3 is coming into Nottingham in 4 hours despite the fact that the cases have dropped by over 350 cases per 100k in the last week (!) how does that make any sense at all? And potentially into Birmingham too... haven't looked at the data but my friends there tell me that they are coming down compared to this time last week.

Anyone who does think the rules are a good idea if they were all followed to the T, I'd be interested if you could point me to the science behind the 10pm curfew. If you do, I'll forward it onto Boris, who had absolutely no answer when questioned on how on earth this could be effective. I'll also point you towards my own experience on the tram last week at 10:05pm after we were kicked out of bars - it was busier than it ever has been pre-Covid. NET keep saying "just wait for the next one if it's too busy" but the next one is 15 minutes behind at that time of day and will be just as packed. Especially if, as the tram staff on the platform told me, the true capacity for "social distancing" on the trams is actually 32 people.

Back to tiers, businesses here are already getting around the new Tier 3 rule - "from Friday, price of entry includes a substantial meal (chicken wings and chips or a veggie alternative)"

 

[joncombe]

Apologies if you think it was offensive but as a Bradford resident you must surely be tired of the city constantly being at the top or bottom of any list on any topic

That sounds like an argument for a full lock down!

I do wonder if the reason for the tiers not working is because of people not adhering to the rules though. If you are obeying the rules, I can’t see how so many people keep testing positive, who are they catching it off and in what setting?

I saw this article earlier and found it quite baffling.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-54726902

To quote

Families "making their own judgements" on coronavirus guidelines are keeping rates high in Blackburn with Darwen, the public health director has said.
The Lancashire borough has recorded the highest infection rate in the country despite being subject to additional Covid-19 measures for months.
Professor Dominic Harrison said some households were "not complying completely" with self-isolation and social mixing guidance.
He wants a short national lockdown.
Mr Harrison said a circuit-breaker would provide "a much better chance" to stop rising cases.

So it seems the argument is - people are not complying to the rules. So the solution is more rules?! I can't understand the logic that says because people are not complying with the local restrictions they will suddenly comply if they were to become (essentially) the same restrictions, but nationally.

 

[43066]

I'll also point you towards my own experience on the tram last week at 10:05pm after we were kicked out of bars - it was busier than it ever has been pre-Covid.

Exactly the same experience for me on a train home leaving London Bridge one Friday night a couple of weeks back. That was by far the busiest train I’ve been on since pre Covid, but with even less distancing, because people had had a few!

 

[DB]

So it seems the argument is - people are not complying to the rules. So the solution is more rules?! I can't understand the logic that says because people are not complying with the local restrictions they will suddenly comply if they were to become (essentially) the same restrictions, but nationally.

That's how govenment logic always seems to go with this. Same with masks - mandated them in some places; absolutely no evidence of this making any difference, so mandate them in more places,. Still no difference, OK, more places.

Their motto seems to be that if something clearly isn't having an effect you need to keep on doing more, and more, and more of it. Then wonder why it still doesn't work.

 

[philjo]

A number of areas are moving to Tier 2 on Saturday, including Derby City, Derbyshire Dales and High Peak, Staffordshire, East Riding of Yorkshire and North east Lincolnshire, Telford & Wrekin, Luton, Oxford.

Covid-19: Millions more residents in England move to tier 2

Parts of Yorkshire and the Humber, West and East Midlands, and Luton and Oxford face new measures.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[kristiang85]

Some of the people on there seem a bit sad anyway, I question if they have much of a life so I guess it doesn't come as a surprise that they are pro lockdown.

Lol at Mumsnet but you're so right. Another bad one is Tattle Life, whilst some of their threads are an interesting read and not much bickering goes on there, it seems to sway pro restrictions with over 60% of voters wanting a national lockdown (though interestingly, more voters would break rules for Christmas than those who wouldn't).

I don't want to be stereotypical, but the sort of people who would post a lot on TV forums must spend much of their lives watching TV and that's their main occupation, so lockdown isn't exactly going to change that. I would bet a lot of them are retired, and others have safe office jobs that work from home easily (and I am most certainly in that latter category, but I generally hate modern TV so this year has been killing me).

Certainly my hobbies centre around travel, so that's the kind of forums I post on (like this one), so I guess we are all in our own opinion groups. But more to the point, I am anti lockdown as I see the bigger picture for the long term, and it isn't pretty in my opinon.

 

[Carlisle]

So it seems the argument is - people are not complying to the rules. So the solution is more rules?! I can't understand the logic

I think their logic amounts to constantly blaming people for not following rules, so they can continually order more & more businesses to close until you’ve literally got nowhere but home to go like the March lockdown, mission accomplished

 

[Crossover]

b) they don't even understand what rules they're supposed to be following

I've just been on a Zoom quiz with some friends (all of us in West Yorkshire) and even within the 5 of us, there was confusion about when the Tier 3 starts (and why it isn't just now) and some of the other nuances.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

That’s the problem with restrictions, those who obey, end up with more and more restrictions, and those that don’t obey, just keep on doing what they are doing, in turn causing even more restrictions that they also don’t adhere to

What a massive oversimplification.
I have obeyed the restrictions, but as a key worker, have had to go to work throughout this whole period.
If I caught a dose but had no symptoms, and then spread it to others, asymptomatically, and infections went up as a result, I would still have extra restrictions imposed even though I played by the rules

 

[Bikeman78]

Apologies if you think it was offensive but as a Bradford resident you must surely be tired of the city constantly being at the top or bottom of any list on any topic

That sounds like an argument for a full lock down!

I do wonder if the reason for the tiers not working is because of people not adhering to the rules though. If you are obeying the rules, I can’t see how so many people keep testing positive, who are they catching it off and in what setting?

It's currently doing the rounds in my office, despite there being enough hand sanitizer and wipes in the building to sink a ship. I don't understand why you are surprised that a virus is spreading. That's what they do.

I think their logic amounts to constantly blaming people for not following rules, so they can continually order more & more businesses to close until you’ve literally got nowhere but home to go like the March lockdown, mission accomplished

Then people will meet each other at home so it will still spread.

 

[Freightmaster]

Having a read through Digital Spy, it's depressing. They are all insistent that these restrictions aren't enough and we need a full lockdown.

AVforums (a hugely popular UK-based home cinema/hifi/gaming/tech forum) is similar - the vast majority of
Covid related posts are people moaning endlessly about 'idiots' not wearing masks, 'idiots' not social distancing,
'idiots' ignoring travel guidance, etc. - their holier than thou 'for the greater good' attitude feels almost cult like
and anyone questioning the narrative is immediately shut down and is branded - yes, you guessed it - an idiot!

...but on PistonHeads for example they're overwhelmingly anti-restriction (let alone lockdown). Being a forum for car enthusiasts that maybe isn't suprising; shows, motor racing and other events have really suffered this year and as cars are an expensive hobby I imagine many are worried about the economic situation.

The epic "CV19 - Cure worse than the disease?" topic on Pistonheads is a real breath of fresh air,
and it's currently on volume five, with ten thousand posts per volume!






MARK

 

[Scotrail12]

This thread over at DS takes the biscuit. I wonder if they are genuine or being a WUM:

We can all go back to normal in 6 weeks

We need a super strict international global lockdown.

forums.digitalspy.com

We need a super strict international global lockdown. All Borders closed, dating apps disabled, police and army on the streets, shops closed except food shops - but they can only sell essential foods - no booze, no clothes, no ice, lollies. No pubs. Fine and prosecute people.

Will it be easy? No, it will be 5-6 weeks of hell and zoom calls. But will it be worth it? Hell yes. In 6 weeks we will be back to normal. You are, most welcome. How do I go about sending this to every government?

 

[43066]

This thread over at DS takes the biscuit. I wonder if they are genuine or being a WUM:

We can all go back to normal in 6 weeks

We need a super strict international global lockdown.

forums.digitalspy.com

Ive just had a scroll through the first couple of dozen responses - it’s a parody post followed by much Micky taking, and most of it not in agreement with the ludicrous premise of the thread.

 

[infobleep]

The London Ambulance Service tweeted that the number of suicide and attempted suicide incidents they’ve attended are running at 37 per day
View attachment 85213


But presumably no Kings Cross or Redhill option (Platform 0)

Platform 0 is for low cases and its winter so platform 0 is out of use right now. It comes back into use next summer I suspect.

 

[duncanp]

I am getting rather tired of the sections of the news media that try to push a pro lockdown agenda with click baity headlines that are completely misleading.

Take Sky News this morning.

The headline is England "very, very likely" to go into second national lockdown, says former government scientist"

When you scroll down the live feed in Sky News to get to the relevant paragraph you find:-

Reverend Professor Gina Radford has told Sky News the government is currently using regional lockdowns because there is "variation in what's happening across the country".
"In the North West, the infection is so prevalent that these measures are needed. But if you're further down south, say South West, where the infection is nowhere near as prevalent, to ask businesses to close is quite a significant step," she said.
She said fears about the economy and people's ability to continue following lockdown restrictions are the biggest factors in England not having gone into a second national lockdown yet.
But she added: "Will it happen? I think it's very, very likely, because remember we're still in October - we've still got the whole of winter to go."

So a former government scientist is stating her opinion, and the way the headline is written makes you think that it is a fact that a second national lockdown is on the cards.



Similarly there were many headlines yesterday along the lines of Birmingham set to move into Tier 3 or that it is inevitable that the West Midlands will move into Tier 3, possibly by the end of next week.

When you actually read the articles more closely, you see that the leader of Birmingham City Council has said that it is likely, but not imminent, that the West Midlands will move into Tier 3. In other words the situation, while serious, is not yet at a stage where a move to Tier 3 is going to happen. It will depend on whether the numbers stabilise over the next week or so.

 

[Yew]

This thread over at DS takes the biscuit. I wonder if they are genuine or being a WUM:

We can all go back to normal in 6 weeks

We need a super strict international global lockdown.

forums.digitalspy.com

Dating apps closed? This whole situation has already unfairly affected single people.

 

[Class 33]

I am getting rather tired of the sections of the news media that try to push a pro lockdown agenda with click baity headlines that are completely misleading.

Take Sky News this morning.

The headline is England "very, very likely" to go into second national lockdown, says former government scientist"

When you scroll down the live feed in Sky News to get to the relevant paragraph you find:-



So a former government scientist is stating her opinion, and the way the headline is written makes you think that it is a fact that a second national lockdown is on the cards.



Similarly there were many headlines yesterday along the lines of Birmingham set to move into Tier 3 or that it is inevitable that the West Midlands will move into Tier 3, possibly by the end of next week.

When you actually read the articles more closely, you see that the leader of Birmingham City Council has said that it is likely, but not imminent, that the West Midlands will move into Tier 3. In other words the situation, while serious, is not yet at a stage where a move to Tier 3 is going to happen. It will depend on whether the numbers stabilise over the next week or so.

Indeed. I'm sick and tired of this too.

Something else I've noticed with Sky News is they regularly interview members of the cabinet and ask them if a second national lockdown is possible, to which they usually reply with "Well we refuse to rule anything out.". But then Sky News then put on their website a headline article saying a second national national lockdown is not ruled out by the government. For instance this week it's "Priti Patel refuses to rule out second national lockdown". And previous to that pretty much every week over the past couple of months we've had the likes of.....

"Robert Jenrick refuses to rule out second national lockdown"

"Dominic Raab refuses to rule out second national lockdown"

"Matt Hancock refuses to rule out second national lockdown"

"Michael Gove refuses to rule out second national lockdown"

"Alok Sharma refuses to rule out second national lockdown"

"Boris Johnson refuses to rule out second national lockdown"

It's ridiculous! Sky News seem to actually want a second national lockdown! I wonder who they'll publish next week as "refuses to rule out a second national lockdown"??!!

I'm glad though that so far the government is not giving in to pressure for a national lockdown to be implemented. We just can't have a national lockdown yet again.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, I've now got the entirely counter-productive and ineffectual tier three restrictions to look forward to on Monday.

Sweden has never looked more like paradise.

 

[DustyBin]

Dating apps closed? This whole situation has already unfairly affected single people.

Not just single people!

 

[duncanp]

"Robert Jenrick refuses to rule out second national lockdown"

"Dominic Raab refuses to rule out second national lockdown"

"Matt Hancock refuses to rule out second national lockdown"

"Michael Gove refuses to rule out second national lockdown"

"Alok Sharma refuses to rule out second national lockdown"

"Boris Johnson refuses to rule out second national lockdown"

And today it's Dominic Raab's turn.

Second wave death toll likely to exceed 'reasonable worst-case' scenario, Sage warns

www.telegraph.co.uk

Tier 4 restrictions will not be ruled out, a minster has said, as he warned the second wave is "serious".

Dominic Raab, the Foreign Secretary, said the Government is "always ready" to impose stricter measures on the population if deemed necessary.

When asked if highest tier restrictions were being considered, Mr Raab said: "We do think the situation is serious.

"Having said that, we're confident we've got the right measures and framework in place -not to have a blanket approach but to target measures on the areas where the uptick is the highest."

He added: "We're always ready for further measures that we can take."

Mr Raab's comments come after former deputy chief medical officer, Reverend Professor Gina Radford, said it was "very, very likely" England would go into a full lockdown

It is "very, very likely" that I am going to get serious cheesed off with all these "warnings" and will start to ignore them.

 

[birchesgreen]

What is Tier 4? Chained to the bed?