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England's new three-tier lockdown system

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ainsworth74

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Big day today for England (and in particular the North) as a quick rundown of what we can expect today Johnson is currently chairing COBRA to finalise plans, the Deputy Chief Medical Officer is expected to give a briefing at some stage this morning laying out the data that triggered this action, at 3.30pm Johnson is expected to make a statement in Parliament announcing the details (or at least the broad framework, it seems unlikely we'll be getting a list of local authorities and what tier they will be in) then finally at 6.00pm he is taking part in a press conference alongside the Chancellor and the Chief Medical Officer. Big day!

Covid: Three-tier lockdown system to be unveiled in England

New local lockdown rules for England are due to be announced later.

The Liverpool City Region is expected to face the tightest restrictions under a new "three-tier" system, which will classify regions as being on "medium", "high" or "very high" alert.

Steve Rotheram, the city region's mayor, says negotiations have taken place through the night but "no deal" has been agreed yet.

Talks between local leaders in England and Westminster continue.

Liverpool recorded 600 cases per 100,000 people in the week ending 6 October. The average for England was 74.

The Liverpool City Region includes the local authority districts of Halton, Knowsley, Sefton, St Helens and Wirral, as well as Liverpool.

Gyms, casinos and pubs are among the businesses expected to be impacted by the top-level restrictions, with new curbs to be reviewed after a month.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson is chairing a meeting of the emergency Cobra committee "to determine the final interventions".

He will then announce changes in the Commons, before speaking at a Downing Street press conference at 18:00 BST.

The prime minister is expected to be joined by Chancellor Rishi Sunak and England's chief medical officer, Prof Chris Whitty.

 
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lammergeier

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Where is the justification for the rumoured closing of Gyms in tier 3? The buffoon said it himself - he suffered bad symptoms from Covid because like many people he was too fat. Now they want to shut the places that help many, many people to shift said fat. But presumably the chippy's will stay open again. Is there any evidence whatsoever that gyms are hotbeds of transmission? The cure is becoming worse than the disease, this government is a disgrace and needs to be driven from office
 

big_rig

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Where is the justification for the rumoured closing of Gyms in tier 3? The buffoon said it himself - he suffered bad symptoms from Covid because like many people he was too fat. Now they want to shut the places that help many, many people to shift said fat. But presumably the chippy's will stay open again. Is there any evidence whatsoever that gyms are hotbeds of transmission? The cure is becoming worse than the disease, this government is a disgrace and needs to be driven from office

No, none at all. The only point it serves is to appeal to the sadly massive crowd of people in this country who look at others doing something that isn’t barricading themselves in their homes and angrily think ‘that’s so dangerous/selfish, that should be banned.’
 

Yew

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I really hope he shows the misleading graph that he showed to MP's a few days ago. I have a friend who is generally pro suppression who was rather irate about the blatant misuse of statistics around pubs closing.
 

duncanp

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The cure is becoming worse than the disease, this government is a disgrace and needs to be driven from office

I agree.

Some hospitality businesses in the North of England are launching legal action over the proposed closures, demanding to see the evidence used to justify them, especially as Public Health England's own data shows that only a small proportion of virus transmissions are taking place in pubs, bars and restaurants.

I really hope they succeed, as it seems the hospitality industry is being made a scapegoat for the increase in cases, which are caused mainly by schools and universities, which the government is too cowardly to do anything about.
 

Bletchleyite

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I really hope he shows the misleading graph that he showed to MP's a few days ago. I have a friend who is generally pro suppression who was rather irate about the blatant misuse of statistics around pubs closing.

I'm of a similar view - I believe some measures are necessary and that a complete "let it rip" policy isn't viable, but I am utterly sick of the lies, misrepresentation and "secret squirrelling" - none of which is even remotely necessary.

The debate about this "3 level" thing, of which I am in support, should have been happening in Parliament, not in secret.

Why's "we are doing X, because Y" hard?
 

lammergeier

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I'm of a similar view - I believe some measures are necessary and that a complete "let it rip" policy isn't viable, but I am utterly sick of the lies, misrepresentation and "secret squirrelling" - none of which is even remotely necessary.

The debate about this "3 level" thing, of which I am in support, should have been happening in Parliament, not in secret.

Why's "we are doing X, because Y" hard?

Probably because under scrutiny "Y" simply doesn't justify "X"
 

Yew

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The debate about this "3 level" thing, of which I am in support, should have been happening in Parliament, not in secret.

Indeed, in parliament, and not leaked to the press. This trick from Dominic Cummings of leaking things might work well when there's going to be a debate later, but the Sun should not have a better idea of what's happening than the House of Commons. It's almost getting to the point where "I saw that this would be allowed in the Daily Mail a few days ago" seems like a reasonable excuse for breaking the law.
 

Solent&Wessex

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As always, the devil will be in the detail. The biggest thing for me is the suggestion of an outright ban, for 2 to 3 months or longer, on having any social interaction or in person contact with anybody you don't live with, as well as the ban on travel outside the local area.

I live just on the border of an area most likely to be in Tier 3. My support bubble lives outside the area in an area which will definitely have a lower tier.

Will I be allowed to travel outside the area to visit and stay with them?

If not, and as I live alone, does that mean I have to live like a hermit with no contact with anyone at all in any setting for months on end?

There will be many other people of all ages who live alone, or without family, who need social contact with others just to keep themselves sane and have a life.

How on earth is making it illegal to see anybody else proportionate and reasonable?
 

Yew

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How on earth is making it illegal to see anybody else proportionate and reasonable?

Don't you know people are dying? the world health organisations latest statistics suggest it has an infection fatality ratio comparable to Spanish flu seasonal influenza.

Quite simply, and sense of proportionality was lost long ago, now we just live to "beat" the virus.
 

C J Snarzell

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I live in the Greater Manchester area and sadly we will fall into Tier 3.

The news for me is very disappointing. I don't go to pubs and restaurants at present, but I do enjoy an hour each day at the gym. Come tonight, my daily exercise routine will be gone and because of the Autumn weather, I won't necessarily be able to enjoy a lengthy walk each day because of the unpredictable weather.

The Tier 3 is no different to the lockdown imposed on the 23rd March. This government has made it perfectly clear that they are not interested in other illnesses being sidelined by covid such as essential cancer treatments, nor are they interested in rising mental health and rising unemployment which will escalate once the Tier system is announced. If you start feeling depressed - tough s**t, if you have cancer symptoms - start draughting your will now!!!

As another forum member has commented - obesity is a growing problem in the UK. So why prevent exercise and confine people indoors (again!) where they will simply drink to excess on alcohol and snack on junk food? Boris Johnson is a prat - all he is doing is focusing primarily on one thing and one thing alone (the virus) and he is deliberately ignoring everything else which will cause greater harm in the long run.

CJ
 

Crossover

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Don't you know people are dying? the world health organisations latest statistics suggest it has an infection fatality ratio comparable to Spanish flu seasonal influenza.

Quite simply, and sense of proportionality was lost long ago, now we just live to "beat" the virus.
I hope this is tongue in cheek (apologies, it doesn't come across well in writing if it is)
 

bramling

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I'm of a similar view - I believe some measures are necessary and that a complete "let it rip" policy isn't viable, but I am utterly sick of the lies, misrepresentation and "secret squirrelling" - none of which is even remotely necessary.

The debate about this "3 level" thing, of which I am in support, should have been happening in Parliament, not in secret.

Why's "we are doing X, because Y" hard?

I don’t see why this couldn’t have been done in Parliament, since this has now been being talked about for several days. Even when it’s announced today, allegedly it’s not happening until Wednesday. That seems to be over a week. No doubt it’s all being done with Cummings and company, who was pictured on various news channels as he entered no10 this morning.

Don't you know people are dying? the world health organisations latest statistics suggest it has an infection fatality ratio comparable to Spanish flu seasonal influenza.

Quite simply, and sense of proportionality was lost long ago, now we just live to "beat" the virus.

It seems BJ is now talking about “beat it by Christmas”.

I’m sure lots of people will be pleased to know they will be able to go to the pub at Christmas, that’s if many pubs are still in business by then in the affected areas.
 

theblackwatch

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I was going to predict there would be lots of gnashing of teeth after any announcement from the vocal minority on this forum. It would appear 'after any announcement' was incorrect! :lol:
 

Howardh

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I don’t see why this couldn’t have been done in Parliament, since this has now been being talked about for several days. Even when it’s announced today, allegedly it’s not happening until Wednesday. That seems to be over a week. No doubt it’s all being done with Cummings and company, who was pictured on various news channels as he entered no10 this morning.



It seems BJ is now talking about “beat it by Christmas”.

I’m sure lots of people will be pleased to know they will be able to go to the pub at Christmas, that’s if many pubs are still in business by then in the affected areas.
Well he's no chance unless he shuts down education OR by some stroke of luck the virus has infected just about everyone it can infect and dies out. Closing down pubs and gyms will being levels back to August levels? I think not.

As an aside, in the phone-in on Radio 5 this morning I heard an elderly and very chirpy lady (who had just got herself a new 74-yr-old "boyfriend!") wanting us all to join her on aprotest march. What march..where..book me in!!
 

Bletchleyite

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It seems BJ is now talking about “beat it by Christmas”.

I’m sure lots of people will be pleased to know they will be able to go to the pub at Christmas, that’s if many pubs are still in business by then in the affected areas.

There is I suppose a possibility of lifting some restrictions for a week or two around there, but suggesting it will be "beaten" before a vaccine (which won't be until next year) is nonsensical.

As for New Year, this year it will be about sitting at home watching whatever the Beeb come up with.
 

DustyBin

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I was going to predict there would be lots of gnashing of teeth after any announcement from the vocal minority on this forum. It would appear 'after any announcement' was incorrect! :lol:

I’m not sure ‘vocal minority’ is an accurate description. Millions of people are going to find that these restrictions are no laughing matter when they lose their jobs and can’t afford to live!
 

Howardh

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There is I suppose a possibility of lifting some restrictions for a week or two around there, but suggesting it will be "beaten" before a vaccine (which won't be until next year) is nonsensical.
Lift over Xmas and watch the figures go sky-high again in the new year!
As for New Year, this year it will be about sitting at home watching whatever the Beeb come up with.
No thanks, I've got some paint that wants me to watch it dry.
 

Bletchleyite

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Lift over Xmas and watch the figures go sky-high again in the new year!

If we can wait until Wednesday for these new measures, we can "get away with" unlocking for say a week - say 22nd to 28th Dec, allowing up to say 10 or 15 people to meet in the same household - basically permitting most likely forms of family Christmas. It doesn't have to be big stuff.
 

DustyBin

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If we can wait until Wednesday for these new measures, we can "get away with" unlocking for say a week - say 22nd to 28th Dec, allowing up to say 10 or 15 people to meet in the same household - basically permitting most likely forms of family Christmas. It doesn't have to be big stuff.

Or, we could come up with a sensible, coherent and maybe even effective strategy that doesn’t decimate the economy and the nations physical and mental health. Sorry I know this has been done to death but what we’re seeing is madness!
 

Howardh

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If we can wait until Wednesday for these new measures, we can "get away with" unlocking for say a week - say 22nd to 28th Dec, allowing up to say 10 or 15 people to meet in the same household - basically permitting most likely forms of family Christmas. It doesn't have to be big stuff.
What about new year when all the Brexit voters will be out wanting to celebrate the end of the transition period, not to mention the two-day Hogmany in Scotland?
 

Solent&Wessex

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I don’t see why this couldn’t have been done in Parliament, since this has now been being talked about for several days. Even when it’s announced today, allegedly it’s not happening until Wednesday. That seems to be over a week. No doubt it’s all being done with Cummings and company, who was pictured on various news channels as he entered no10 this morning.



It seems BJ is now talking about “beat it by Christmas”.

I’m sure lots of people will be pleased to know they will be able to go to the pub at Christmas, that’s if many pubs are still in business by then in the affected areas.

As much as I like going to the pub I am sure I could cope without, if needs be.

What I cannot cope without is any other human interaction, nor being confined to my local area, nor being able to visit and stay with my support bubble, and having to live like a hermit in solitary confinement for a prolonged period.
 

Wuffle

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Or, we could come up with a sensible, coherent and maybe even effective strategy that doesn’t decimate the economy and the nations physical and mental health. Sorry I know this has been done to death but what we’re seeing is madness!

The Sweden Option exposes the UK shambles
 

DustyBin

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As much as I like going to the pub I am sure I could cope without, if needs be.

What I cannot cope without is any other human interaction, nor being confined to my local area, nor being able to visit and stay with my support bubble, and having to live like a hermit in solitary confinement for a prolonged period.

Then imagine all of that, plus not being able to pay your bills because you worked at the pub.... This is going to be horrendous for those affected, there’s no doubt about it.
 

Howardh

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Whatever happens you can guarantee there will be loopholes. For a start, if not moving between areas is "advisory" then what's to stop us? I will certainly travel from a red area to one more open if I can, and if not try option B which is a flight abroad. If I am gonna be in quarantine/lockdown for a month here, might as well spend two weeks of it somewhere warmer and half the quarantine/lockdown.

If they decide to ban travel by law, then like the hospitality industry is doing, could we have a case in court, asking the government to back their figures up which makes it necessary?

Can we still go and play outdoor sport - what if away games are outside our zone? Is that an exemption? Can we watch outdoor sport eg. non-league football?? I bet all that information is missing later today.
 

Yew

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The Sweden Option exposes the UK shambles

Indeed, if increases in deaths either do not happen, or are no worse than here, then surely that is fairly conclusive evidence that our measures are having little effect, certainly proportional to the damage that they cause.

And yet it hasn't been adopted by one single other country in the world. Why not, we can ask ourselves?
Not a country, but Florida seems to be opening up?
 

Wuffle

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And yet it hasn't been adopted by one single other country in the world. Why not, we can ask ourselves?
The conspiracy theorists quote The Great Reset as championed by the WEF and Soros, others the "incompetence of The World Health Organisation or its leader being in thrall to the Chinese Government - my theory they forgot the old maxim "When in a Hole Stop Digging"
 

DustyBin

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And yet it hasn't been adopted by one single other country in the world. Why not, we can ask ourselves?

It’s a valid question to be fair. Two possibilities are that governments tried in vain to control the first wave as it was deemed politically unacceptable to pursue herd immunity (we were close to doing so however if you recall). Or that they simply had no idea what to do so followed China or maybe more so Italy (who in turn followed China) in the case of European countries. I honestly have no idea.

Sweden does have a history of doing its own thing so maybe that’s partly why they chose a different path.

Was Sweden relatively late in seeing infections? If so they maybe actually made an informed choice based on the (albeit limited) evidence available to them.
 

bramling

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It’s a valid question to be fair. Two possibilities are that governments tried in vain to control the first wave as it was deemed politically unacceptable to pursue herd immunity (we were close to doing so however if you recall). Or that they simply had no idea what to do so followed China or maybe more so Italy (who in turn followed China) in the case of European countries. I honestly have no idea.

Sweden does have a history of doing its own thing so maybe that’s partly why they chose a different path.

Was Sweden relatively late in seeing infections? If so they maybe actually made an informed choice based on the (albeit limited) evidence available to them.

It does seem on the face of it that China went for elimination initially in Wuhan, which to be fair wasn’t entirely unreasonable at the point where there was still a valid hope that it might have been confined. Italy then copied, again seemingly partly because their outbreak was heavily focussed on one specific area.

From there it certainly seems to be the case that there’s been a copycat effect.

I have to say I’m not entirely convinced we’d have had such good results as Sweden, as we just don’t seem to have the mentality they have there. We also have the disadvantage of a very high population density (though Scotland is considerably less dense, and they don’t seem to be deriving much benefit from that?). On balance however whilst we might not have got as good a result as Sweden it would almost certainly have been better than the current “worst of all worlds” approach we seem to have here.
 
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