Lockdown in England from Thursday 5 November until Wednesday 2 December

[Crossover]

I don’t think the tier system was given long enough. It’s going to take at least 2 weeks to see a difference which would be this week. All the arguing about which tiers to go in didn’t help either. We’ll see what the figures are like for the rest of the week.

Agreed. They said back at the start that when measures were taken, it would need two to three weeks to see an effect from it and the measures taken back then appeared more collected and were taken much slower. We now have a situation where something is changed, then 3 or 4 days later they get spooked and change it again, rinse and repeat. There isn't a cat in hells chance of anyone knowing what is having an effect when they keep making such rapid and widespread changes so regularly!

Worcester Foregate Street toilets still shut, with a notice at the foot of the stairs saying "you can use the facilities on your train". All well and good except some WMR-GWR connections are 40 minutes there, and if you don't know the station ones are closed you may not bother to go on the train before alighting. Really not good enough. Even if they just had the disabled one available, with the key obtained from the ticket desk, it would be something. You would think they didn't want people to travel... oh wait .

The facilities at Scarborough were shut in both July and September. Likewise when I went on the North Bay Railway, all the facilities in Northstead Manor Gardens were shut and one had to go to the council block in the car park across the road. Utterly infuriating. In the case of Scarborough station, I messaged TPE on both occasions (particularly in July when the hand sanitiser station wasn't working either

 

[trainophile]

Sadly I doubt it.

I was over in Northern Ireland at the start of their 2 week "Circuit Breaker". I went to the Giant's Causeway on the Sunday afternoon and it was much busier than I had expected, clearly people taking advantage of the very pleasant weather. The visitor centre was completely shut, as were both the hotel and the pub. No facilities were open or available whatsoever, including the toilets which appeared to normally be accessible without entering the visitor centre. It's a National Trust property so I'd fully expect the same nonsense to be replicated over here sadly.

As an aside, it's well worth a visit! A truly fascinating place to go.

Looks stunning on Google images. Adds to bucket list for one day...

Re. the facilities, it's no wonder people resort to going behind a bush. If you've gotta go you've gotta go.

Agreed. They said back at the start that when measures were taken, it would need two to three weeks to see an effect from it and the measures taken back then appeared more collected and were taken much slower. We now have a situation where something is changed, then 3 or 4 days later they get spooked and change it again, rinse and repeat. There isn't a cat in hells chance of anyone knowing what is having an effect when they keep making such rapid and widespread changes so regularly!

The facilities at Scarborough were shut in both July and September. Likewise when I went on the North Bay Railway, all the facilities in Northstead Manor Gardens were shut and one had to go to the council block in the car park across the road. Utterly infuriating. In the case of Scarborough station, I messaged TPE on both occasions (particularly in July when the hand sanitiser station wasn't working either

Did you get a reply from TPE?

 

[LAX54]

As someone who has extensive experience of working in an education environment, directly working with students including those who are disadvantaged/vulnerable (including several job roles such as Teaching Assistant, Midday Supervisory Assistant, and more; plus unofficial roles which have involved effectively teaching lessons as well as running numerous extracurricular activities, from running football activities to school trips including visiting a rail operations centre) I am absolutely sure what my opinion is: schools must not close.

It is difficult for me to put into words why schools must not close; but anyone who works in a school, especially one with disadvantaged students in attendance, cannot possibly take the view that schools should close in my opinion, at least not if they are familiar with the facts. While the Unions may purport the teaching profession wants schools to close, that opinion is not shared by the vast majority of teachers.

I have taken this view, and strongly believe it is the right one, after carrying out extensive research into the Sars-Cov-2 pandemic including reading a lot of research papers, and listening to interviews with many experts.

While people are entitled to a different view, I firmly believe they are very much mistaken and misunderstand either the importance of keeping schools open, or the true risks involved. I cannot feel any stronger than I do on this matter.

I encourage everyone to consider signing this.

It's now up to 517,847 and going up all the time.

While I personally do not attend gyms, I understand the importance of this to others.

Furthermore, if gyms were to stay open, it would clearly allow outdoor sports to continue, which I also feel is very important (I have an interest in this; I am playing 5 hours of football this week, but throughout this pandemic I have always sought to put the needs of others, and wider society first; I'm not just saying this for my benefit, but because I am well aware of the huge impact it has on many people, and the chances of transmission are tiny).

Kids and Schools... our neighbours kids, think 1 is 12 and the other about 14 (slightly Autistic) went back to School when they resumed a few weeks back, they lasted a day, and said they were too sared, and have been off ever since, Parebts do not like conflict, so have not argued with them, so they have been off, for I dont know how long ! certainly one of them is doing no 'school work' as she is up until 0300 / 0400 and 'sleeps in' until about 4 in the afternoon !

 

[baz962]

This is a shame for a number of businesses. A local pub that I frequent spent the last lockdown serving takeaway pizzas (which they normally sell in the pub, and I have to say are rather nice!) along with bottled/canned beer. Another was doing takeout beers in 2/4 pint cartons to take home. Both have been stopped, I suspect due to those pubs which "abused" the position by serving beer in plastic glasses to drink outside the pub. I have, however, contacted my local MP about it and pointed out that it is a further restriction on an already struggling sector of the economy.

The last sentence poses another question. Has anyone else bothered to contact their MP about their concerns or to give their views? Or do others on here just prefer to express their concerns on a railway forum?

Perhaps you could start one of them online government petitions. The one's that they have to discuss if they hit 100,000 signatures.

 

[Crossover]

Did you get a reply from TPE?

I actually only reported in July looking back. I had a message saying it had been passed onto the station manager. So not massively useful!

 

[trainophile]

I actually only reported in July looking back. I had a message saying it had been passed onto the station manager. So not massively useful!

TPE are pretty good at replying on Twitter, I usually get someone back to me within minutes.

 

[trebor79]

I still think it's wrong to focus on the number of cases. As far as I can tell the reason that they panicked their way into another lockdown was due to the numbers coming out of hospitals and the projection that by Christmas the NHS would be overwhelmed. Unless those figures start to look better they ain't pausing or cancelling lockdown. I think I said previously it seems to me that cases could be running at a 1,000 a day and we'd still be locked down on the back of the hospital and NHS capacity figures.

The thing is that hospital figures have already started to level off (chart below showing number of covid patients in hospital each day). And to reach the 9,000 new patients per day shown on the projection you'd need 700,000 infections per day. That is clearly not feasible in a population of 68m with a doubling time of 17 days, it would burn itself out long before that point.

 

[tetudo boy]

Isn't school work from home a priority if they eventually close? The only thing stopping it is mental health, but some schools are allowing zoom call's between students and teachers.

 

[35B]

Isn't school work from home a priority if they eventually close? The only thing stopping it is mental health, but some schools are allowing zoom call's between students and teachers.

It is a priority, and my kids’ schools have made clear that pupils ordered to isolate have to join classes if they are well.

Video calls between teachers and pupils raise all sorts of safeguarding issues, both for pupils and staff, and are near enough a no no if one to one. Again, my kids’ schools have a long list of protocols that pupils have to obey, including particular restrictions on their doing calls from their bedrooms.

 

[telstarbox]

Are we any closer to getting the legislation yet?

For example is it lawful for, say, 3 people to go for a walk outside (the risk of transmission is minimal but this isn't based on the science, so who knows!), or is it lawful to have a small group play football? Would the police be likely to take action against people engaging in such harmless events?

It's just dropped on the government website - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1200/contents/made

 

[tetudo boy]

It is a priority, and my kids’ schools have made clear that pupils ordered to isolate have to join classes if they are well.

Video calls between teachers and pupils raise all sorts of safeguarding issues, both for pupils and staff, and are near enough a no no if one to one. Again, my kids’ schools have a long list of protocols that pupils have to obey, including particular restrictions on their doing calls from their bedrooms.

This could be a solution. It could also help someones mental health.

 

[35B]

This could be a solution. It could also help someones mental health.

It could - and I've known teachers concerned in the spring that without 1-2-1 calls, they may be unable to reach pupils. But it also puts them in jeopardy.

 

[packermac]

Yes, months ago. Didn't get any response other than an auto reply saying he's terribly busy but light deign to read it in the next few weeks. Useless George Freeman, clearly in a very safe seat, but he won't be getting my vote ever again.

Exactly the same from Richard Drax (a ringleader in the we must be consulted brigade). A response to a non CO

 

[island]

It’s all a bit vague at the moment with the restrictions on leaving your own home, we’ll have to wait for the detailed guidance.

Does this mean I cannot buy a 4 pack of beer and a newspaper from the local shop?
It also mentions non-essential retail can stay open but only for delivery and click and collect, so I guess I’ll have to do it that way!!
Talking of beer, it says pubs can do a takeaway service but not for alcohol. Why??

The regulations have been published and they allow alcohol to be sold by click & collect but not just randomly walking up.

 

[Richard Scott]

This could be a solution. It could also help someones mental health.

No, children need to be in school, full stop. The only exception may be those who have to isolate then I'd agree.

 

[telstarbox]

The regulations have been published and they allow alcohol to be sold by click & collect but not just randomly walking up.

That would be from pubs / restaurants I think - food shops which happen to sell alcohol will stay open like last time.

 

[Class 33]

Kings College have tweeted that their Zoe app has shown a drop in the R rate to 1 in England, Scotland & Wales leading to some putting pressure on Boris to pause the lockdown.

Yes it's excellent news that the R rate has dropped to 1 now. The reckless lockdown should be scrapped, paused or cut short. But sadly I very much doubt Boris is going to do that. There will be a vote on it tomorrow in parliament, but it appears it will still definitely pass.

 

[MikeWM]

The nastiest bits of the regulations (the 'No person may leave or be outside of the place where they are living without reasonable excuse' part - very much *not* a phrase I ever wanted to see again in law) appear to be based on the situation at the end of May, not that at the end of March. In particular the specific exception 'to visit a public outdoor place for the purposes of open air recreation' is there again, which was interpreted rather widely (and in my case as an excuse to start travelling around by train again, in order to go to the seaside - though that isn't quite as appealing an idea as it was in May...)

They explicitly expire in 28 days time, and they repeal the tier regulations, so some other stuff will no doubt be passed before then.

 

[Birmingham]

Will we be permitted to travel by train and bus to visit places under these regulations? Would we get hassled by the police (including BTP) for doing so?

Not being able to get out any further than I could walk (as I can't drive) in the last lockdown was disastrous for my mental health, so unlike in the first lockdown, I'm of a mind to try and find a way it's allowed to travel during this one just to keep myself sane.

 

[221129]

Will we be permitted to travel by train and bus to visit places under these regulations?

Yes. There is nothing in there mentioning the use of public transport.

 

[Mojo]

I note from the announcement that it appears that retail that has been ordered to close is allowed to remain open for "click and collect" purposes. Was this permitted last time as I don't remember anyone doing this before, unlike this time where a few companies have decided to do this.

 

[adc82140]

The last sentence poses another question. Has anyone else bothered to contact their MP about their concerns or to give their views? Or do others on here just prefer to express their concerns on a railway forum?

Yep. Have written to mine and got a very reasonable response. But he is arch lockdown sceptic Sir Desmond Swayne, so I'm preaching to the converted.

 

[david1212]

I find it surprising that nobody has mentioned Remembrance Sunday in regards to the new lockdown.
I wonder what the police reaction will be if people gather at memorials in town centres, as they have done in previous years.
I always stop by and pay my respects, to honour those who fought for our freedoms.
How disrespectful to their sacrifice it would be if I and others who want to do the same get arrested or hit with a huge fine?

In the document published
The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (No. 4) Regulations 2020
Made----at 2.45 p.m. on 3rd November 2020
Laid before Parliament -- at 4.10 p.m. on 3rd November 2020
Coming into force--5th November 2020

It specifically states
Exceptions: leaving home
6 (2)(f)

to attend an event commemorating Remembrance Sunday or to attend the gathering referred in regulation 11(18)(a)(ii)

There is more

Exception 14: Remembrance Sunday and Armistice Day

(18)Exception 14 is that—
(a)the gathering takes place— (i)outdoors in a place which is not a private dwelling to commemorate Remembrance Sunday, or (ii)in Westminster Abbey on 11th November 2020 to commemorate Armistice Day and the centenary of the burial of the Unknown Soldier;

(b)the persons attending the gathering are limited to—(i)persons there as part of their work, (ii)persons providing voluntary services in connection with the event, (iii)members of the armed forces, (iv)veterans of the armed forces or their representatives or carers, and

16(v)spectators who participate in the gathering alone or only with members of their household, linked household or their linked childcare household, and (c)the gathering organiser or manager takes the required precautions in relation to the gathering (see regulation 14).

 

[adc82140]

I note from the announcement that it appears that retail that has been ordered to close is allowed to remain open for "click and collect" purposes. Was this permitted last time as I don't remember anyone doing this before, unlike this time where a few companies have decided to do this.

I think the rule is that the shops concerned have to have an established click and collect service in place already (happy to be corrected). But to be honest who still goes in to Argos and leafs through the laminated catalogue these days? I'd say 80% of their business is C&C.

In the document published
The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (No. 4) Regulations 2020
Made----at 2.45 p.m. on 3rd November 2020
Laid before Parliament -- at 4.10 p.m. on 3rd November 2020
Coming into force--5th November 2020

It specifically states
Exceptions: leaving home
6 (2)(f)



There is more

My town council has just issued an edict forbidding anyone to go anywhere near the war memorial on remembrance Sunday. The local Royal British Legion are hopping mad, as they weren't consulted, and the rules state that a socially distanced gathering and parade is allowed.

 

[bramling]

Yep. Have written to mine and got a very reasonable response. But he is arch lockdown sceptic Sir Desmond Swayne, so I'm preaching to the converted.

I’ve written to my MP this week, which is now the third time since this whole affair started. The first time was specifically to express disgust over Cummings, and the second and most recent expressing concerns over restrictions and this latest lockdown.

Nothing worthy of note in response, just a generic reply each time, haven’t heard back on the most recent yet.

 

[trainophile]

Keeping an eye out for developments regarding already booked hotels, specifically Travelodge in England and North Wales, during November. Many people will presumably have taken up the '2 nights for the price of 1' Saver rate offer, which would normally mean it's not refundable, but if the hotel isn't open for leisure guests then presumably they may have to do the refund/voucher thing again. Premier Inn were quick off the mark and have offered vouchers or a full refund, but Travelodge are apparently still considering their options. If anyone sees anything definite it would be appreciated if they could flag it up on this thread.

 

[island]

I think the rule is that the shops concerned have to have an established click and collect service in place already (happy to be corrected). But to be honest who still goes in to Argos and leafs through the laminated catalogue these days? I'd say 80% of their business is C&C.

There is no requirement that the service be ”established”, merely that item/s must have been ordered through a website or online communication, by phone, by text message, or by post, and the purchaser must not enter the retailer’s premises when collecting.

I note from the announcement that it appears that retail that has been ordered to close is allowed to remain open for "click and collect" purposes. Was this permitted last time as I don't remember anyone doing this before, unlike this time where a few companies have decided to do this.

It was permitted but not in the early stages.

 

[david1212]

The Supermarkets and Covid-19 thread has gone OT talking about Garden Centres.

Within the wording of

' Part 2 '
' Restrictions on Movement '
and
' that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living '

I'm struggling to think of many needs that would make it reasonably necessary to visit a garden centre. Two would be pest control, but it is November, and food or bedding for an animal if stocked as not core garden items.

Back in March / April / May I was never challenged by the regular plod / special constable / PCSO / Covid marshall. If my once daily exercise included a walk into shops that were open e.g. Wilko, Poundland and I only bought a non-essential item it would have easy to cover by saying I wanted hand sanitiser but out of stock. Now aside from yet again some silly panic buying most items are readily available so to be safe would either have to note a specific item with no stock or buy something that is cheap but would fit with essential.

 

[Hadders]

There is no requirement to stipulate what you are intending to purchase when visiting a shop that remains open.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The Supermarkets and Covid-19 thread has gone OT talking about Garden Centres.

Within the wording of

' Part 2 '
' Restrictions on Movement '
and
' that it is reasonably necessary for the person concerned (“P”) to leave or be outside the place where P is living '

I'm struggling to think of many needs that would make it reasonably necessary to visit a garden centre. Two would be pest control, but it is November, and food or bedding for an animal if stocked as not core garden items.

Back in March / April / May I was never challenged by the regular plod / special constable / PCSO / Covid marshall. If my once daily exercise included a walk into shops that were open e.g. Wilko, Poundland and I only bought a non-essential item it would have easy to cover by saying I wanted hand sanitiser but out of stock. Now aside from yet again some silly panic buying most items are readily available so to be safe would either have to note a specific item with no stock or buy something that is cheap but would fit with essential.

I don't see what your fretting about. It is between the shop and the enforcement brigade to determine if they are an 'essential' retailer or not. If the shop is legally open, you can buy anything there, essential or not (obviously talking England here, not Wales). That was always the case. Some shops closed unnecessarily first time round but will not be doing so this time (B & Q). You could always leave your home for exercise (for more than an hour and more than once per day, you could even drive somewhere if that suited you). Walking to the shops is exercise. The only shopping police I heard of were Northamptonshire, promising to break the law and poke in your carrier bags - and they got put in their place.