RMT Ballot Scotrail Members For Strike Action

[Bletchleyite]

Now, whether a pay increase is sensible or even viable is, to me, a much bigger question.

In any industry that has been hit hard by COVID, which is basically all of them except Amazon, supermarkets and food delivery services/takeaways, I can see no sense at all in any pay increases this year. Stabilising the business is of far greater concern, as without the business there are no jobs at all.

 

[Geeves]

19k is the base I believe (at Northern anyway) but there is no reason why you couldn't boost that with rest day work and Sundays quite easily to 27 grand

Makes me laugh so hard when I see all the outrage on here, these guys are outside all weather doing hard work, its not like they are stealing a living!

If you want to be outraged be outraged by the "senior compliance Manager"? "program control manager" Whos starting salary is 76 thousand a year. Some salaries are just advertised as executive. Thats going to be pushing past 100k a year.

No doubt Alex White is one of those on these "executive" salaries.

 

[Daniel740]

19k is the base I believe (at Northern anyway) but there is no reason why you couldn't boost that with rest day work and Sundays quite easily to 27 grand

Makes me laugh so hard when I see all the outrage on here, these guys are outside all weather doing hard work, its not like they are stealing a living!

If you want to be outraged be outraged by the "senior compliance Manager"? "program control manager" Whos starting salary is 76 thousand a year. Some salaries are just advertised as executive. Thats going to be pushing past 100k a year.

Snobbery, a lot of posters probably don’t think being a cleaner is a ‘worthy’ occupation on the railways...

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I must admit I find it odd to suggest that they're being paid to much. Kudos to them getting a good a wage.

Now, whether a pay increase is sensible or even viable is, to me, a much bigger question.

Its not unreasonable to think without outsourcing, the RMT have pushed for above inflation pay rises for years and staff that can and do stay on the rails get a decent wage.

However if Scotrail and other TOCs end up making redundancies when covid recedes because the revenue doesn't match the cost of running the service without more government support should they actually be making redundancies or try cost cutting instead (outsourcing of cleaning etc) its a no brainer, I know there are drivers, conductors, platform staff and managers on here that may disagree, the industry pay is higher than it possibly should be compared to the rest of the job market, and in my opinion pay cuts could be the answer to our national rail network surviving with reduced ridership in the future, people aren't going to want poorer cleaning standards (with less staff) people aren't going to want to see less ticket office staff or shorter staffing hours (by cutting staff) so surely looking at pay would be an answer to a future problem

 

[LOL The Irony]

Snobbery, a lot of posters probably don’t think being a cleaner is a ‘worthy’ occupation on the railways...

My mum has to clean a school, where's her 27 grand? I don't think it's a bad profession, just 27k is too steep in the current climate.

 

[Darandio]

If they can get the work and get that sort of salary then good on them. But striking over no pay increase in 2020, just no.

 

[Daniel740]

My mum has to clean a school, where's her 27 grand? I don't think it's a bad profession, just 27k is too steep in the current climate.

So it’s jealousy then? Your mum should be demanding the same, being a cleaner is not something to look down on or be ashamed of.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

The worst thing they could do it outsource to a third party company. Bang goes their union representation if the outsourced company doesn't have a union or doesn't recognise one.

Outsourcing as well has no accountability lower down the food chain seeing as employees wouldn't be working for Scotrail and the outsourced company wouldn't have second thoughts about sacking an employee if anything was found to be wrong.

I've worked for an outsourcing company in the past and they are nothing but a nightmare. All they bring is low wages, poor working conditions and managers who think they are it and a whole load of misery alongside it.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Stabilising the business is of far greater concern, as without the business there are no jobs at all.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[Geeves]

Just to put it in perspective to earn a quarter of what the top managers earn those cleaners would have to work 13 days (or nights) in a row, you basically have no life, I would push for more if nothing else for a better work life balance.

Life is expensive!

 

[Daniel740]

Absolutely spot on.

Really? I doubt very much that train provision for the whole of Scotland will disappear because some cleaners and conductors are asking for a small rise...

 

[LOL The Irony]

So it’s jealousy then? Your mum should be demanding the same, being a cleaner is not something to look down on or be ashamed of.

It's not jealousy, just what's so different about a train vs a school? And I (as well as my mum for sure) wouldn't demand 27k a year for a few hours a day work during a pandemic induced recession because I'm not insane.

 

[the sniper]

£27,000 for cleaners is frankly an abuse of taxpayer money and the quicker it is outsourced and wage costs brought down to a level more consistent with the rate of pay for cleaners more generally the better. There should be a specific exemption to employment law with regards to forced pay cuts in cases like this where it can be demonstrated that a salary is grossly disproportionate compared to similar jobs in the same area.

The person who cleans up the crap should get paid crap, it's only right!

People getting paid a decent wage to do a job many would refuse to do, how awful. They should really earn their money like people who work at the computer coalface!

 

[theironroad]

The worst thing they could do it outsource to a third party company. Bang goes their union representation if the outsourced company doesn't have a union or doesn't recognise one.

Outsourcing as well has no accountability lower down the food chain seeing as employees wouldn't be working for Scotrail and the outsourced company wouldn't have second thoughts about sacking an employee if anything was found to be wrong.

I've worked for an outsourcing company in the past and they are nothing but a nightmare. All they bring is low wages, poor working conditions and managers who think they are it and a whole load of misery alongside it.

If 50% or more of workers within the same job description /grade join the same union and the union applies to the employer for recognition for collective bargaining purposes then employment law a!lows that that union is recognised .

Maybe it's the reality of life where people are set off against people , but most people on these forums don't work, and never have, worked in the raill industry and believe that rail workers should do as they are told and 'pipe down' with their demands and a minimum wage is a wage they should doff their cap and be grateful for.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

If 50% or more of workers within the same job description /grade join the same union and the union applies to the employer for recognition for collective bargaining purposes then employment law a!lows that that union is recognised .

Maybe it's the reality of life where people are set off against people , but most people on these forums don't work, and never have, worked in the raill industry and believe that rail workers should do as they are told and 'pipe down' with their demands and a minimum wage is a wage they should doff their cap and be grateful for.

Completely agree. I'm a union steward within the energy industry and collective bargaining most definitely has its upsides. We just don't fight for pay and conditions for union members but non members alike as well.

We have 4 unions at my employer and its my union that have got the best relationship with the business. We strive to get the best out of the business for the employees, but on the flip side of it, the business has to fight their side as well.

 

[Energy]

Just to put it in perspective to earn a quarter of what the top managers earn those cleaners would have to work 13 days (or nights) in a row, you basically have no life, I would push for more if nothing else for a better work life balance.

Life is expensive!

But cleaning is a completely different job to what the top managers do. No offence to cleaners but its not a job which requires much qualification compared to running a business.

 

[Logan Carroll]

Winter of Discontent 2.0 approaching?

 

[theironroad]

Winter of Discontent 2.0 approaching?

I'd have to revisit my history for 1.0 but I think it's unlikely.

If as is hoped that by this time next year a real sense covid no longer being a major threat (vaccine) then I reckon most people will weather the storm.

 

[father_jack]

My mum has to clean a school, where's her 27 grand? I don't think it's a bad profession, just 27k is too steep in the current climate.

Think you'll find your mum has the right to apply for a 27k cleaning job and join a union. But she probably hasn't done the former and given your attitude probably hasn't done the latter either.

Winter of Discontent 2.0 approaching?

Think you'll find "winter of discontent" falls in the same category as clichés like "national service". Bandied about by people too young to have any recollection of same.

 

[Bald Rick]

And so it begins.

Interesting who is getting the flak here. Think about who is paying the bills.

 

[323235]

£27,000 for cleaners is frankly an abuse of taxpayer money and the quicker it is outsourced and wage costs brought down to a level more consistent with the rate of pay for cleaners more generally the better. There should be a specific exemption to employment law with regards to forced pay cuts in cases like this where it can be demonstrated that a salary is grossly disproportionate compared to similar jobs in the same area.

If anything it should be the opposite, cleaners should not be having to make do with minimum wage , the fact Scotrail is paying them a decent wage (roughly £14.00 an hour) is somewhat commendable. It's quite possible Scotrail could end up paying a contract cleaning company substantially more than that (I recall £16.50 an hour being the going rate for a decent contract cleaner round here 5 years ago) but in this scenario the employees are the winners as the cleaning company don't take their slice.

If I were them though, I wouldn't be taking action over lack of a pay rise this year though, be thankful they're still alive and have a job!

 

[alangla]

If anything it should be the opposite, cleaners should not be having to make do with minimum wage , the fact Scotrail is paying them a decent wage (roughly £14.00 an hour) is somewhat commendable. It's quite possible Scotrail could end up paying a contract cleaning company substantially more than that (I recall £16.50 an hour being the going rate for a decent contract cleaner round here 5 years ago) but in this scenario the employees are the winners as the cleaning company don't take their slice.

If I were them though, I wouldn't be taking action over lack of a pay rise this year though, be thankful they're still alive and have a job!

Bear in mind when comparing contract vs in-house employees that for the in-house ones you also need to pay employer’s NI, pension contributions, HR/occ health etc. For an office worker, usually the seat cost (I.e. cost of the individual’s pay, benefits, building, facilities etc) is about 2x their headline salary, so adding on 50% for an in-house cleaner seems reasonable.

As mentioned on the Caledonian Sleeper strike discussion, this appears to be another case of RMT turkeys voting for Christmas.

 

[Hugo3000]

If MPs are getting 4.1% why shouldn't rail staff who have actually put themselves at risk over the last year get something? It's not like the fact that the government has spent billions fighting this pandemic and lost huge amounts of tax revenue has stopped the MPs getting their annual inflation busting pay rise - so why should loss of revenue on the railway be used as argument against?

Those who are criticising cleaners for getting the best pay they can need to have a rethink, especially the poster comparing their mum working a few hours a week in a school, to a cleaner working on a depot in hazardous locations in all weather on a 35 hour + week contract! How dare people strive for the best pay and conditions!?

It's also nice to see the anti-rail staff agenda of a minority of posters on here rear its heads.

 

[LowLevel]

If MPs are getting 4.1% why shouldn't rail staff who have actually put themselves at risk over the last year get something? It's not like the fact that the government has spent billions fighting this pandemic and lost huge amounts of tax revenue has stopped the MPs getting their annual inflation busting pay rise - so why should loss of revenue on the railway be used as argument against?

Those who are criticising cleaners for getting the best pay they can need to have a rethink, especially the poster comparing their mum working a few hours a week in a school, to a cleaner working on a depot in hazardous locations in all weather on a 35 hour + week contract! How dare people strive for the best pay and conditions!?

It's also nice to see the anti-rail staff agenda of a minority of posters on here rear its heads.

To be fair as an RMT guard elsewhere I consider my pay claim well settled by the 100% pay for staff at home shielding, no reduced pay for significantly reduced hours including many days sat spare at home doing nothing on full pay and a couple of months of barely working more than 5 hours a day if you were in, no lay offs etc and that's without being paid a full wage to be a glorified door boy for half of it blocked away from the passengers without revenue duties.

I'd be interested to hear what percentage value is attached to the generous enough terms above by some folks.

The argument seems to be "the TOCs are making a small profit on the ERMA arrangements and so we should still get our pay rises".

 

[The Ham]

I suspect those who have any period of time on furlough without their company topping up from the 80%, especially where they may have seen their pay fall by more than this by being above the pay cap (which at about £30,000 could include others getting similar pay to some of the higher payed staff in the article) and/or have been threatened with redundancy and/or haven't had a party rise (especially if that's been the case for a few years) will have little sympathy for the RMT (and less so for the MP's).

Just because there's a high profile example of someone who shouldn't really be getting a pay rise doesn't mean that everyone should get a pay rise, in fact of I was performing badly and cited the MP's as also performing badly and therefore why I should also get a pay rise my boss wouldn't thick too highly of such an argument (not that this is a comment on the performance of the staff in question, just highlighting that citing MP's isn't a good case study to use to justify pay increases), especially if the company had been struggling due to the impact of Covid-19.

If people want to put a case together for why they justify a pay rise then they need to do it by explaining what they've been doing which justifies such an increase. Even if that's to show why they need one to cover the increases in the cost of living due to inflation.

With limited public support and the low number of passengers, as others have highlighted, the threat of strikes is unlikely to hold much fear on the employer side of things. Especially if a few trains don't get cleaned for 48 hours, what's it going to matter.

If anything but striking out may actually increase the risk of outsourcing. As contractors are used to cover strike periods and if it's shown that they perform well enough for the same or sightly less cost then they could be used to cover overtime (especially if overtime attracts a greater than 100% pay rate) or other staffing gaps (such as replacing staff through natural wastage as there's often significant costs in recruiting and onboarding new staff).

As such just because someone isn't happy about such a strike it doesn't mean that they are Torry, however defaulting to striking in the current situation also isn't going to necessarily get what staff want and may actually make it that the increased use of contractors on reduced terms may very well be the outcome that is achieved by the strike.

 

[jimjim]

Looking at the Aslef website Scotrail drivers are in the second year of a two year deal of 3% or Aug 2020 RPI.
That might have some bearing on the RMT position. Whether that is right or not I have no idea.

 

[alangla]

Lots of really sensible stuff

As they say on other forums:
This, +1.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those who are criticising cleaners for getting the best pay they can need to have a rethink, especially the poster comparing their mum working a few hours a week in a school, to a cleaner working on a depot in hazardous locations in all weather on a 35 hour + week contract! How dare people strive for the best pay and conditions!?

Because there's a global emergency going on.

 

[AndrewP]

Cleaning is a much undervalued trade and a good cleaner with the right skills and training deserves respect.

In my experience many are on the minimum wage (even in London) which is crazy and a false economy due to staff turnover costs but the norm tends to be about £9 - 10 per hour from decent employers plus benefits with those with specialist skills or some seniority being paid £12 or maybe a little more.

The rates paid by Scotrail are high compared with industry norms but at approx. £13 per hour are not in the crazy league

 

[LoogaBarooga]

To be fair as an RMT guard elsewhere I consider my pay claim well settled by the 100% pay for staff at home shielding, no reduced pay for significantly reduced hours including many days sat spare at home doing nothing on full pay and a couple of months of barely working more than 5 hours a day if you were in, no lay offs etc and that's without being paid a full wage to be a glorified door boy for half of it blocked away from the passengers without revenue duties.

I'd be interested to hear what percentage value is attached to the generous enough terms above by some folks.

The argument seems to be "the TOCs are making a small profit on the ERMA arrangements and so we should still get our pay rises".

I agree with this too, the job has never been easier.