Brexit matters

[radamfi]

I wouldn't support more than that sort of deal, we should try to keep reasonably close to the principle that immigrants are assessed as individuals, not based on their nationality.

You seem obsessed by this principle. Even if you buy into the argument that it is fair, it relies on everyone else playing by the same rules. We now have fewer rights and freedom than other citizens thanks to such dogmatic slavish application of those principles. This kind of argument means it is now more useful to have a Romanian passport than a British one.

 

[Chester1]

You seem obsessed by this principle. Even if you buy into the argument that it is fair, it relies on everyone else playing by the same rules. We now have fewer rights and freedom than other citizens thanks to such dogmatic slavish application of those principles. This kind of argument means it is now more useful to have a Romanian passport than a British one.

I am "obsessed" by it because basing immigration rights on nationality is a defacto way of doing it by race. FOM creates a largely closed labour market that makes it much more difficult for non Europeans to move to Europe. I want an immigration system that angers both pan europeans and nationalists. Most countries have immigration systems based on individuals not nationality. Our system from 01/01/2021 will be similar to the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea and Singapore. Its common to have some exceptions for countries with strong ties (like the UK and Ireland will continue to have with each other) and some easements under Mobility frameworks (like Canada and US have) but not to the extent that exists under FOM, which accounted for approximately half of UK immigration.

I would strongly support a mobility framework with the EU to build on the limited provisions in the FTA but it would need to be on terms that both sides are prepared to offer to other countries. 3 year youth mobility visas would satisfy much of the demands of young people, if combined with proper funding for the Turing scheme. If a year abroad as a student, followed by a 3 year youth mobility visa isn't sufficient for a young Brit they need to make sure they are sufficiently skilled to get a visa.

 

[37424]

I am "obsessed" by it because basing immigration rights on nationality is a defacto way of doing it by race. FOM creates a largely closed labour market that makes it much more difficult for non Europeans to move to Europe. I want an immigration system that angers both pan europeans and nationalists. Most countries have immigration systems based on individuals not nationality. Our system from 01/01/2021 will be similar to the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea and Singapore. Its common to have some exceptions for countries with strong ties (like the UK and Ireland will continue to have with each other) and some easements under Mobility frameworks (like Canada and US have) but not to the extent that exists under FOM, which accounted for approximately half of UK immigration.

I would strongly support a mobility framework with the EU to build on the limited provisions in the FTA but it would need to be on terms that both sides are prepared to offer to other countries. 3 year youth mobility visas would satisfy much of the demands of young people, if combined with proper funding for the Turing scheme. If a year abroad as a student, followed by a 3 year youth mobility visa isn't sufficient for a young Brit they need to make sure they are sufficiently skilled to get a visa.

Yes but Brexit was about race for some and still will be going forward, despite what some politicians and media might say, and the fact that a Hard Brexiteer Tory MP is talking about Freedom of Movement for mainly White mainly English speaking countries really says it all in my book.

On the subject of the ERG apparently they are assembling a group of lawyers to look at the deal, talk about a Government within a Government, of course if most Labour party MP's either vote for it or abstain it will likely get through even if most of the ERG don't vote for it, but this group really make my blood boil.

 

[radamfi]

I am "obsessed" by it because basing immigration rights on nationality is a defacto way of doing it by race. FOM creates a largely closed labour market that makes it much more difficult for non Europeans to move to Europe. I want an immigration system that angers both pan europeans and nationalists. Most countries have immigration systems based on individuals not nationality. Our system from 01/01/2021 will be similar to the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea and Singapore. Its common to have some exceptions for countries with strong ties (like the UK and Ireland will continue to have with each other) and some easements under Mobility frameworks (like Canada and US have) but not to the extent that exists under FOM, which accounted for approximately half of UK immigration.

I would strongly support a mobility framework with the EU to build on the limited provisions in the FTA but it would need to be on terms that both sides are prepared to offer to other countries. 3 year youth mobility visas would satisfy much of the demands of young people, if combined with proper funding for the Turing scheme. If a year abroad as a student, followed by a 3 year youth mobility visa isn't sufficient for a young Brit they need to make sure they are sufficiently skilled to get a visa.

The Irish and other Europeans don't seem to have such a problem with FOM within Europe. Does that make them xenophobic, racist or both?

 

[Chester1]

Yes but Brexit was about race for some and still will be going forward, despite what some politicians and media might say, and the fact that a Hard Brexiteer Tory MP is talking about Freedom of Movement for mainly White mainly English speaking countries really says it all in my book.

On the subject of the ERG apparently they are assembling a group of lawyers to look at the deal, talk about a Government within a Government, of course if most Labour party MP's either vote for it or abstain it will likely get through even if most of the ERG don't vote for it, but this group really make my blood boil.

I agree its based on race but the ERG won't get what it wants on immigration. Immigration may drop slightly but it will largely be swapping Europeans for Non Europeans. I am happy with that if its tied to filling skills shortages and genuine asylum seekers. The forthcoming wave of Hong Kong immigration will be a challenge for both extremes. Racists won't like it because they aren't white and pan europeans won't like Hong Kongers who identify as (sort of) British taking priority over Europeans. For me Irish Citizens are an exception because of the complicated Northern Ireland situation and British National (Overseas) are because they are a bit British. I wouldn't support extending it to Australia and New Zealand based on ethnic links. Although British ancestry visas do make sense for people with British grandparents as many countries give Citizenship to grandchildren of emigrants).

The Irish and other Europeans don't seem to have such a problem with FOM within Europe. Does that make them xenophobic, racist or both?

It doesn't make them as individuals racist but their immigration systems are at best discriminatory, if not out right racist.

 

[najaB]

I am "obsessed" by it because basing immigration rights on nationality is a defacto way of doing it by race.

A) I don't think that "de facto" is the right term to use in this context, and B) it's not true to say that EU freedom of movement is in any way racist since a French person of any race has the right to live and work in Germany - race isn't in any way a barrier.

 

[Chester1]

A) I don't think that "de facto" is the right term to use in this context, and B) it's not true to say that EU freedom of movement is in any way racist since a French person of any race has the right to live and work in Germany - race isn't in any way a barrier.

It doesn't discriminate directly on race for the reason you have pointed out but it guarantees that most immigrants will be white. It creates a closed labour market for 450 million people (were the vast majority are white) and mostly locks out the rest of the worlds population (were the vast majority are non white).

Brexiteers are an odd coalition of nativists and internationalists. Ex remainers need to make sure the internationalists win. Pushing to give priority in immigration system to Europeans over non Europeans helps the nativists not the internationalists.

 

[birchesgreen]

So the ERG want to create a free trade, freedom of movement block with four countries that are thousands of miles apart. It’s not as if you just say to your mates I’m popping over to New Zealand or Australia for the weekend. People spend years planning that once in a lifetime trip to Canada or New Zealand. It costs a huge amount of money to travel to the other side of the world. People are never going to make regular use of a freedom of movement area over those distances where time zones are so far apart. The ERG are utterly bonkers.

Certain people seem to think they can just recreate the empire (though select bits of it, you can probably guess which parts).

 

[WestCoast]

I don’t want to rehash old arguments but the largest difficulty with the loss of FOM for me is that it denies a right that many of us had when we born as British and EU citizens. I am pan European out of a reality that was realised in no small part due to FOM within the EU rather than an academic attachment to the idea. Personally, my grandparents were German (but I cannot acquire citizenship) and my parents are legal permanent residents of Spain and business owners there. The removal of the right to work for the business or even visit family without restrictions is saddening. Like many others, I also have family in Australia but I never had such rights there. It feels like a loss and I know others in my position who feel the same - I do wonder if mobility will ever return in the same way within my lifetime.

 

[Dave1987]

It doesn't discriminate directly on race for the reason you have pointed out but it guarantees that most immigrants will be white. It creates a closed labour market for 450 million people (were the vast majority are white) and mostly locks out the rest of the worlds population (were the vast majority are non white).

Brexiteers are an odd coalition of nativists and internationalists. Ex remainers need to make sure the internationalists win. Pushing to give priority in immigration system to Europeans over non Europeans helps the nativists not the internationalists.

So why did BoJo say that the UK Government wanted to keep the UK part of Erasmus? If the Telegraph has claimed it was poor value for money then surely that is one thing the Govt should have proactively wanted to ditch?

I have actually seen some hardcore Brexiteers claiming that now the Government can concentrate on "purging schools of any left-wing ideology’s" and that schools should monitor what students discuss to ensure they toe the line. This is all starting to sound very very Nazi Germany-like. The whole freedom of speech is fine so long as its toeing the line of what Brexiteers think and any talk of anti-Brexit stuff is "anti-British". This is the country that Brexit has created. Lots of people view the EU as the enemy now. The EEC was created to stop WW2 from ever happening again. It seems to me that what happened in the 1930's in Germany is happening right now in the UK.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2020 ==

Certain people seem to think they can just recreate the empire (though select bits of it, you can probably guess which parts).

Yup! Britannia rules the waves don't you know.

 

[Chester1]

I don’t want to rehash old arguments but the largest difficulty with the loss of FOM for me is that it denies a right that many of us had when we born as British and EU citizens. I am pan European out of a reality that was realised in no small part due to FOM within the EU rather than an academic attachment to the idea. Personally, my grandparents were German (but I cannot acquire citizenship) and my parents are legal permanent residents of Spain and business owners there. The removal of the right to work for the business or even visit family without restrictions is saddening. Like many others, I also have family in Australia but I never had such rights there. It feels like a loss and I know others in my position who feel the same - I do wonder if mobility will ever return in the same way within my lifetime.

Would you support unlimited immigration from the Commonwealth as we had until the 60s? If not, how does your situation post brexit differ to someone of Indian ethnicity for instance?

So why did BoJo say that the UK Government wanted to keep the UK part of Erasmus? If the Telegraph has claimed it was poor value for money then surely that is one thing the Govt should have proactively wanted to ditch?

I have actually seen some hardcore Brexiteers claiming that now the Government can concentrate on "purging schools of any left-wing ideology’s" and that schools should monitor what students discuss to ensure they toe the line. This is all starting to sound very very Nazi Germany-like. The whole freedom of speech is fine so long as its toeing the line of what Brexiteers think and any talk of anti-Brexit stuff is "anti-British". This is the country that Brexit has created. Lots of people view the EU as the enemy now. The EEC was created to stop WW2 from ever happening again. It seems to me that what happened in the 1930's in Germany is happening right now in the UK.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2020 ==


Yup! Britannia rules the waves don't you know.

Its easy for unreconciled remainers to take shots at the nativist group within brexiteers but I suspect the internationalist faction will win out. Unreconciled remainers will end up bitter and resentful in a Britain (or England) that is more globalist (with some specific red lines). Boris is not likely to last until the next general election as Tory MPs know he is a liability. The front runner currently is Rishi Sunak. How is saying Brexit Britain is racist and going down the path of Germany in the 1930s going to look if Sunak is PM? An internationalist brexiteer, who is the son of immigrants? I suppose many on here are certain that the Tories would never elect someone of an ethnic minority as leader, just like they were sure Boris' was determined to leave without a deal.

Remainers need to hold the Government to account on creating "Global Britiain", not pine after a lost pan european future.

 

[yorksrob]

You seem obsessed by this principle. Even if you buy into the argument that it is fair, it relies on everyone else playing by the same rules. We now have fewer rights and freedom than other citizens thanks to such dogmatic slavish application of those principles. This kind of argument means it is now more useful to have a Romanian passport than a British one.

I am "obsessed" by it because basing immigration rights on nationality is a defacto way of doing it by race. FOM creates a largely closed labour market that makes it much more difficult for non Europeans to move to Europe. I want an immigration system that angers both pan europeans and nationalists. Most countries have immigration systems based on individuals not nationality. Our system from 01/01/2021 will be similar to the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea and Singapore. Its common to have some exceptions for countries with strong ties (like the UK and Ireland will continue to have with each other) and some easements under Mobility frameworks (like Canada and US have) but not to the extent that exists under FOM, which accounted for approximately half of UK immigration.

I would strongly support a mobility framework with the EU to build on the limited provisions in the FTA but it would need to be on terms that both sides are prepared to offer to other countries. 3 year youth mobility visas would satisfy much of the demands of young people, if combined with proper funding for the Turing scheme. If a year abroad as a student, followed by a 3 year youth mobility visa isn't sufficient for a young Brit they need to make sure they are sufficiently skilled to get a visa.

I think that whilst it's true that the EU is/was probably a bit of a closed shop in terms of immigration, I don't have a problem with favouring countries or groups of countries that have a similar cultural outlook.

One can have a very utilitarian outlook based on skills alone, but outside of skills requirements, there are likely to be people in this country who want a change of scene somewhere else, just as there will be people in other countries who want to do the same here. I don't see a problem in trying to achieve mutually beneficial arrangements that enable this, but the reality is that such agreements are going to be easier to achieve between countries with a similar cultural outlook and similar income levels. Demand is likely to be better matched, and people will find it easier to get on in the others countries.

 

[Chester1]

I think that whilst it's true that the EU is/was probably a bit of a closed shop in terms of immigration, I don't have a problem with favouring countries or groups of countries that have a similar cultural outlook.

One can have a very utilitarian outlook based on skills alone, but outside of skills requirements, there are likely to be people in this country who want a change of scene somewhere else, just as there will be people in other countries who want to do the same here. I don't see a problem in trying to achieve mutually beneficial arrangements that enable this, but the reality is that such agreements are going to be easier to achieve between countries with a similar cultural outlook and similar income levels. Demand is likely to be better matched, and people will find it easier to get on in the others countries.

I am not arguing for entirely basing immigration on individuals. I do think what you describe is best met by mobility frameworks in multiple free trade deals rather than FOM. I suspect once the UK signs a couple of mobility frameworks as part of service sector chapters in FTAs the EU will consider triggering their right to have the same terms. Its going to be difficult to hold their current position if EU citizens have worse opertuntities to work in the UK than American, Japanese, Singaporean or Australian citizens. Currently the EU doesn't do mobility frameworks, the very limited provisions in the EU-UK FTA are the furthest they have gone with a third country. For me its about keeping most immigration based on individuals and spreading the oppertuntity amongst FTA countries as widely as possible.

 

[WestCoast]

Would you support unlimited immigration from the Commonwealth as we had until the 60s? If not, how does your situation post brexit differ to someone of Indian ethnicity for instance?

For those Commonwealth citizens who were born at a time with rights to live anywhere within it, I would have liked to see that status retained. I think the UK record on early Commonwealth migration is equally challenging. I would like to see those who gained EU citizenship at birth retain those rights. I hear there was actually some fringe support for this within EU circles but I don’t see traction to be gained and it would be unworkable due to other non-UK EU citizens wanting reciprocity.

 

[yorksrob]

I am not arguing for entirely basing immigration on individuals. I do think what you describe is best met by mobility frameworks in multiple free trade deals rather than FOM. I suspect once the UK signs a couple of mobility frameworks as part of service sector chapters in FTAs the EU will consider triggering their right to have the same terms. Its going to be difficult to hold their current position if EU citizens have worse opertuntities to work in the UK than American, Japanese, Singaporean or Australian citizens. Currently the EU doesn't do mobility frameworks, the very limited provisions in the EU-UK FTA are the furthest they have gone with a third country. For me its about keeping most immigration based on individuals and spreading the oppertuntity amongst FTA countries as widely as possible.

Perhaps things will pan out in that direction. It would seem a bit of an omission not to have such a mobility framework with such a close geographical/cultural/trading neighbour.

 

[Dave1987]

Its easy for unreconciled remainers to take shots at the nativist group within brexiteers but I suspect the internationalist faction will win out. Unreconciled remainers will end up bitter and resentful in a Britain (or England) that is more globalist (with some specific red lines). Boris is not likely to last until the next general election as Tory MPs know he is a liability. The front runner currently is Rishi Sunak. How is saying Brexit Britain is racist and going down the path of Germany in the 1930s going to look if Sunak is PM? An internationalist brexiteer, who is the son of immigrants? I suppose many on here are certain that the Tories would never elect someone of an ethnic minority as leader, just like they were sure Boris' was determined to leave without a deal.

Remainers need to hold the Government to account on creating "Global Britiain", not pine after a lost pan european future.

Believe me, no one would be happier than me to hear that BoJo had gone and Sunak had taken over. Then I would be incredibly happy to hear Sunak to tell the ERG and all the racist far-right individuals that their ideologies will not be implemented in "Global Britain". Freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and freedom of thought will all be respected. BoJo has already blown billions and billions on bluffing on a no-deal Brexit. It is going to take decades for us to grow enough to pay off the bills BoJo has spent during his time in office. Once the realities of Brexit start to bite it is going to take someone like Sunak to guide the UK to unite it to one common purpose. I know many many remainers who will be glad to see the UK crash and burn post-Brexit to prove a point such is the bitterness of the debate. BoJo has done nothing to heal that divide.

 

[Chester1]

Perhaps things will pan out in that direction. It would seem a bit of an omission not to have such a mobility framework with such a close geographical/cultural/trading neighbour.

Its up to the EU. It doesn't currently fit with their trade policy. The UK government wanted much better coverage of services than it got. It withheld agreements on mobility, defence and foreign policy in response. Most free trade agreements have terms that state that if the other country / bloc in the FTA gives better treatment to another country then they must be offered the same terms. That means the EU will have option to have a mobility framework (even if the UK doesn't want it to happen) but it is likely to be on terms that will uncomfortable for them. They see service sector deals as cherry picking the single market. Mobility frameworks in FTA are generally only for high skilled immigration and temporary visas. That is not the sort of thing the EU wants with European countries.

Believe me, no one would be happier than me to hear that BoJo had gone and Sunak had taken over. Then I would be incredibly happy to hear Sunak to tell the ERG and all the racist far-right individuals that their ideologies will not be implemented in "Global Britain". Freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and freedom of thought will all be respected. BoJo has already blown billions and billions on bluffing on a no-deal Brexit. It is going to take decades for us to grow enough to pay off the bills BoJo has spent during his time in office. Once the realities of Brexit start to bite it is going to take someone like Sunak to guide the UK to unite it to one common purpose. I know many many remainers who will be glad to see the UK crash and burn post-Brexit to prove a point such is the bitterness of the debate. BoJo has done nothing to heal that divide.

I know people like that to (and who openly state it). I don't see how they can take any moral high ground over any brexiteers. I totally agree Boris needs to retire quickly for the country to heal. The FTA should start the healing process but there is a small section of remainers who will never be reconciled, just like the racist segment of brexiteers who don't accept any deals with foreigners or any immigration. The only response with both groups is to ignore them and push ahead with making the best of our new situation. I suspect Scotland will be the trigger for the Tories to replace Boris. Most brexiteers are prepared to accept the break up of the UK as a cost of brexit, (thinking it will happen at some point regardless of brexit). However, I think the vast majority would be prepared to replace Boris and do major constitutional reform to give the union a chance of surviving.

 

[Dave1987]

I know people like that to (and who openly state it). I don't see how they can take any moral high ground over any brexiteers. I totally agree Boris needs to retire quickly for the country to heal. The FTA should start the healing process but there is a small section of remainers who will never be reconciled, just like the racist segment of brexiteers who don't accept any deals with foreigners or any immigration. The only response with both groups is to ignore them and push ahead with making the best of our new situation. I suspect Scotland will be the trigger for the Tories to replace Boris. Most brexiteers are prepared to accept the break up of the UK as a cost of brexit, (thinking it will happen at some point regardless of brexit). However, I think the vast majority would be prepared to replace Boris and do major constitutional reform to give the union a chance of surviving.

Something we very much agree on! If we hope to possibly succeed in a post-Brexit world is for the whole UK to act as one. Stop the hatred. With BoJo in charge, it simply won't happen as the bloke is a buffoon and energises the extremists. Get Boris out and get Sunak in. Start again try and heal the divide. At the moment it just won't happen with the country divided and Scotland heading for independence.

 

[yorksrob]

Its up to the EU. It doesn't currently fit with their trade policy. The UK government wanted much better coverage of services than it got. It withheld agreements on mobility, defence and foreign policy in response. Most free trade agreements have terms that state that if the other country / bloc in the FTA gives better treatment to another country then they must be offered the same terms. That means the EU will have option to have a mobility framework (even if the UK doesn't want it to happen) but it is likely to be on terms that will uncomfortable for them. They see service sector deals as cherry picking the single market. Mobility frameworks in FTA are generally only for high skilled immigration and temporary visas. That is not the sort of thing the EU wants with European countries.

That's fair enough in terms of services.

I'm surprised we'd have been interested in an agreement on foreign and defence policy in the first place. I'd have thought we'd have preferred to leave that to NATO/bi-lateral agreements anyway.

 

[Chester1]

Something we very much agree on! If we hope to possibly succeed in a post-Brexit world is for the whole UK to act as one. Stop the hatred. With BoJo in charge, it simply won't happen as the bloke is a buffoon and energises the extremists. Get Boris out and get Sunak in. Start again try and heal the divide. At the moment it just won't happen with the country divided and Scotland heading for independence.

My preference would be Ruth Davidson but Tories would need to parachute her into a safe seat until she could stand in a Scottish seat at next general election. Sunak is much more likely. Javid would appeal to the moderate right of the party.

That's fair enough in terms of services.

I'm surprised we'd have been interested in an agreement on foreign and defence policy in the first place. I'd have thought we'd have preferred to leave that to NATO/bi-lateral agreements anyway.

The Tories aren't keen on mobility (with EU), defence and foreign policy agreements but the EU is. They would tolerate them as part of deal on services.

The Govermment has just announced some details of the "Turing scheme". 35,000 places a year (17,000 Brits studied through Erasmus in 2017). Funding is only £100m (£2850 per person). That will limit the number of overseas universities willing to offer places. Presumably the £9200 UK tuition fees will transfer to host university, along with most of the £2850.

 

[yorksrob]

The Tories aren't keen on mobility (with EU), defence and foreign policy agreements but the EU is. They would tolerate them as part of deal on services.

Well, I suppose it's all on the table, if the EU decide to come up with something in return.

 

[WestCoast]

The Govermment has just announced some details of the "Turing scheme". 35,000 places a year (17,000 Brits studied through Erasmus in 2017). Funding is only £100m (£2850 per person). That will limit the number of overseas universities willing to offer places. Presumably the £9200 UK tuition fees will transfer to host university, along with most of the £2850.

Interesting. Absurdly, I still had to “pay” my UK University £4500 when I studied in Germany under the Erasmus scheme, where I paid the low local fees which were easily covered by my grant. My understanding was that the money was kept in the UK. £2850 is going to be push for students heading further afield I suspect.

 

[radamfi]

I remember Germany abolishing tuition fees for everyone, even non-EU students. Is that still the case?

 

[Chester1]

Interesting. Absurdly, I still had to “pay” my UK University £4500 when I studied in Germany under the Erasmus scheme, where I paid the low local fees which were easily covered by my grant. My understanding was that the money was kept in the UK. £2850 is going to be push for students heading further afield I suspect.

I doubt there will much funding directly for students. I think the expectation will be that students loans are used to cover living costs. Probably airfares will be covered. UK universities will probably lose all the tuition fees while students are abroad. That is the only way can I see an average funding of £2850pp stretching. I suspect there will be a token number of elite university places available and most places will be at cheaper universities. If the goal is cultural experience and the number of participants is double that of Erasmus then it will be a reasonable outcome. I suspect there will be pressure to increase the budget after 2021-22.

 

[WestCoast]

I remember Germany abolishing tuition fees for everyone, even non-EU students. Is that still the case?

Yes in all but one state. I understand competition for public university places is quite high especially at the top institutions.

I doubt there will much funding directly for students. I think the expectation will be that students loans are used to cover living costs. Probably airfares will be covered. UK universities will probably lose all the tuition fees while students are abroad. That is the only way can I see an average funding of £2850pp stretching. I suspect there will be a token number of elite university places available and most places will be at cheaper universities. If the goal is cultural experience and the number of participants is double that of Erasmus then it will be a reasonable outcome. I suspect there will be pressure to increase the budget after 2021-22.

The devil will be in the detail of course but I would like it to be a success.

 

[najaB]

The devil will be in the detail of course but I would like it to be a success.

That's pretty much Brexit in a nutshell.

 

[Chester1]

The devil will be in the detail of course but I would like it to be a success.

Yes but its already better than what I feared. I guess the Tories have a vested interest in getting young Brits to live and study outside of Europe now. The scheme will almost certainly be set up to favour non European Universities. The funding level should mean the average place will be in mid level western universities and high end universities in developing countries.

 

[edwin_m]

Of course travel costs will be that much more for universities in more distant countries, making this less affordable for poorer students.

 

[Pinza-C55]

I don’t want to rehash old arguments but the largest difficulty with the loss of FOM for me is that it denies a right that many of us had when we born as British and EU citizens. I am pan European out of a reality that was realised in no small part due to FOM within the EU rather than an academic attachment to the idea. Personally, my grandparents were German (but I cannot acquire citizenship) and my parents are legal permanent residents of Spain and business owners there. The removal of the right to work for the business or even visit family without restrictions is saddening. Like many others, I also have family in Australia but I never had such rights there. It feels like a loss and I know others in my position who feel the same - I do wonder if mobility will ever return in the same way within my lifetime.

The late George Carlin said that there was "No such thing as human rights because if they were rights they couldn't be given or taken away. There are only temporary privileges granted by governments".

 

[Journeyman]

The late George Carlin said that there was "No such thing as human rights because if they were rights they couldn't be given or taken away. There are only temporary privileges granted by governments".

Is that supposed to make me feel better?