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dailymail - One in five train services could be axed as treasury tightens purse strings

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DB

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The government advice in Tier 3 is you should not travel to work. Tier 4 is you must not - in both cases unless you have no alternative. In March London had the highest infection rates partly because of the huge movement of people coming into contact with each other.

if mass travel is not a spreader of the virus, why the aggressive mitigation’s to restrict people being in close proximity On trains and buses? And why was everyone upset when thousands squashed into trains leaving central London on the evening of Saturday 19 December!

The advice is to work at home if you can as workplaces are regarded as a source of spread - modes of transport have never really been mentioned to any great extent.

if you mean empty trains are not a source of transmission, I suspect you are right.

I have seen no evidence that any trains, even busier ones, are a significant sourc of infections - can you point to any?

The paranoia about keeping away from people is everywhere, it's not specific to transport.

if being at home is In itself a major source of infection why the lockdown? You would be putting people at risk. You catch the virus from people who enter your home who may have been , for example been infected at school or at a bus stop.
Catching it from others in the same household is reckoned to be a significant source of spread. If the government could have come up with some draconian rules no doubt they would have done, but even for them this would be a step too far.

schools returned in September and along with other relaxations on social distancing, we very quickly saw infections, hospitalisations and deaths beginning to grow.

It was the beginning of the respiratory virus season - cases would have been expected to start rising then.

If schools are not a concern, why are we going to test every child in year 7-13 year group weekly from January until the pandemic is over Why are schools been told to go to remote teaching and why are w3 planning a staggered return to school after Christmas.
Because of the 'we must do something' approach.
vaccinating the elderly and vulnerable is a sensible health priority, but will do little to get the economic active back on trains.
True - and the government really does need to modify its messaging around risk. Far too many people who are at little risk remain terrified due to months and month of fear mongering.
 
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Dr Hoo

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Would anyone care to speculate how much the Treasury will cut from the road building budget for all the new road schemes recently proposed by Boris et al? Zero ??
Apologies if this seems 'off thread', but could you provide details of "all these new road schemes" (e.g. a link)? The most recent Highways England plan was largely routine stuff like maintenance and renewal along with sensible upgrades to increase safety at intersections and so on.

'New' schemes like the Lower Thames Crossing or the Stonehenge Tunnel have been announced on many previous occasions and are hardly worthy of the term. The fact that they haven't actually been delivered for decades is effectively a 'cut' even if not actually announced or labelled as such.
 

yorksrob

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Apologies if this seems 'off thread', but could you provide details of "all these new road schemes" (e.g. a link)? The most recent Highways England plan was largely routine stuff like maintenance and renewal along with sensible upgrades to increase safety at intersections and so on.

'New' schemes like the Lower Thames Crossing or the Stonehenge Tunnel have been announced on many previous occasions and are hardly worthy of the term. The fact that they haven't actually been delivered for decades is effectively a 'cut' even if not actually announced or labelled as such.

Perhaps he means the big list of road schemes put forward by George Osborne post the financial crisis. Is it likely all of these have been built yet ?
 

Andrew1395

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What is "being in close proximity on trains and buses" in reality. I've been using trains and buses since May. On barely any have I been in "close proximity" with anyone, yet not that many have been empty. And I've not to my knowledge caught covid on them either (so far).
Quite, and that’s why the Treasury will demand cuts. No overcrowding and revenue down between 75-90%.

I have worked at home since March and following several school lockdowns and Covid tests I know for a fact I haven’t caught the virus. My experience prior to 23 March was squashed in a 350 and S class emus. Being in close proximity commuting into central London was a fact for many on their daily commute. My station used to have posters telling you which trains had standing room only, even which you should avoid. Now it has posters telling you not to travel unless you have to.
 

theageofthetra

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For sure death of the office is a misnomer trumped up by journos with nothing better to write about or consultants looking at getting commissions to advise companies how to do it better. The real hit is going to companies downsizing and an element of decentralisng so central London Office market will roll back after many years of expansion. I believe regional office markets might actually benefit here so i see this as largely a reduction in London commuting with its heavy resource demands but it will still need to be managed with peak pricing I suspect.
An important point regarding reduced London (or other major city) commuting are salary levels. Companies in many sectors have to offer higher wages to attract staff due to the higher living costs in London. If they are working from home in a much lower cost area, plus not paying for a weekly commute why should they receive an enhanced package? Will be interested to see where this ends up in a couple of years time.

In two years' time, if we look back on pre-Covid times and wonder why the hell we ever did a 2 hour commute every day (costing £5k plus) solely to go through emails and make coffee from a different pot, then that would be a good outcome.
Let's not forget you will start to see some move to work remotely in lower tax countries. Several Caribbean islands are offering incentives, Greece is offering half tax for 7 years, Bulgaria is 10% flat rate etc.
 

markymark2000

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I think it's fair to say that with such a drastic reduction in passenger numbers, a small reduction in the train service might be wise. That said, we need to be very careful that we don't reduce the network too much since even on 40% usage, there are still people onboard relying on the railways and also you don't want to push people off the railways (Once pushed into private transport, it's hard to get people to change back). There is certainly potential to reduce 'peak extras' and where possible have a more standard service all day (You can't scrap peak extras in some areas since these are also school/college trains who are still using the network) and I do think some fresh air services could be reduced. By how much though? You don't want a train and crew sat around for most of the day as that's also a waste of money (for example reducing the Windermere line would mean a train sat in Oxenholme or Windermere for longer which is then only saving minimal amounts of money since the crew and train are still there, just not moving).

I'm sure we an all sit and list off tens of services which could be cut back or removed completely but it must be remembered that we do need to accommodate for people who do use the rail network and if you reduce services too much or make certain changes, you end up discouraging people travelling by train which then in a few years time makes this situation reappear (less people travelling, need to balance the books, lets make cut backs) and it's a downward spiral.
 

class26

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A friend who works in Canary Wharf has moved to Norwich from the Essex suburbs. Only needing now to go in to the office once or twice a week. He plans to drive rather than sit on a train. Not sure I understand why he sees that as a better option, but it is an attitude and response I have heard from others.
Until traffic levels build back up and he spends significant time sitting in jams then those new Flirts will look very attractive again .......
 

21C101

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Just reducing peak hour services to offpeak levels would save this 20%, and would permanently solve the driver shortage in parts of the country where rest day working and overtime is normalised.

There would be benefits too in higher reliability with less in the way of congestion delays.

It would also allow cascading of stock allowing older stock to go off lease or be used for new services like a reopened Blyth and Tyne.

There is a huge amount of infrastructure and rolling stock that is only used six hours or so a day for five days a week. Eliminating that saves an awful lot of money.

The bigger problem, as business travel shifts from the peaks to offpeak as people travel to meetings then straight home giving a slight rise in offpeak travel as peak travel falls, will be how to increase offpeak fares to peak fare levels without the frogs objecting to being boiled.
 

philosopher

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A friend who works in Canary Wharf has moved to Norwich from the Essex suburbs. Only needing now to go in to the office once or twice a week. He plans to drive rather than sit on a train. Not sure I understand why he sees that as a better option, but it is an attitude and response I have heard from others.
The problem is the government messaging over the 9 months has scared many from using public transport. Even when restrictions were at their lightest over the summer the message was only use public transport if you have no alternative. Too many now associate public transport a being a place where may get ill, partly as that is because the government have been telling them that.

Next year the railways are going to need to highlight the advantages they have over other forms of transport and reassure people that they are not laden with disease if they want to get people back using them.
 

Wolfie

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To be honest something along these lines seemed fairly inevitable to me.

I do wonder how much of this will be service related in the short term, or will it be a squeeze on the overhead costs of management contracts now that the treasury is taking on the financial risk not the TOC? Would this be ideal, probably, but it seems unlikely when the profit margins for the operating companies is already so constrained.

Personally I'd think the government would want to look at things like leasing costs and other overheads first but looking at the costs of the IEP project verses the conventionally leased Class 802 I'm not filled with hope.



I really hope you are right but unfortunately I can see a scenario where instead of a twice hourly 4 car you end up with an hourly 8 car service which doesn't really solve the problem, it just shifts around the current crowding issues. Now if that hourly service became 12 car then I could see it as a definite benefit but I can't see a scenario where the cost of more rolling stock and infrastructure work becomes palatable compared to trimming service frequencies.

I think service cuts on lightly used lines might be considered but if the Treasury is holding the purse strings and Department for Transport are essentially directing services I can see that being politically unpalatable compared to rolling back some of the increases in services on more heavily used routes. Some of the more obvious ones that come to mind are in devolved administrations so what impact this will have would be a big unknown as well.
Also how compatible some of that is to "leveling up" nationwide which is stated Govt policy.
 

dk1

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Third behind Metro and the S*n, or second behind the S*n if you limit it to papers people buy. Still scary that they shift over a million copies a day
I only tend to buy The Mail on Sunday. Takes a few days to get through it.
 

yorksrob

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An important point regarding reduced London (or other major city) commuting are salary levels. Companies in many sectors have to offer higher wages to attract staff due to the higher living costs in London. If they are working from home in a much lower cost area, plus not paying for a weekly commute why should they receive an enhanced package? Will be interested to see where this ends up in a couple of years time.


Let's not forget you will start to see some move to work remotely in lower tax countries. Several Caribbean islands are offering incentives, Greece is offering half tax for 7 years, Bulgaria is 10% flat rate etc.

This is a good reason why the Government needs to find ways of taxing "offshoring" to remove the incentive.

I think it's fair to say that with such a drastic reduction in passenger numbers, a small reduction in the train service might be wise. That said, we need to be very careful that we don't reduce the network too much since even on 40% usage, there are still people onboard relying on the railways and also you don't want to push people off the railways (Once pushed into private transport, it's hard to get people to change back). There is certainly potential to reduce 'peak extras' and where possible have a more standard service all day (You can't scrap peak extras in some areas since these are also school/college trains who are still using the network) and I do think some fresh air services could be reduced. By how much though? You don't want a train and crew sat around for most of the day as that's also a waste of money (for example reducing the Windermere line would mean a train sat in Oxenholme or Windermere for longer which is then only saving minimal amounts of money since the crew and train are still there, just not moving).

I'm sure we an all sit and list off tens of services which could be cut back or removed completely but it must be remembered that we do need to accommodate for people who do use the rail network and if you reduce services too much or make certain changes, you end up discouraging people travelling by train which then in a few years time makes this situation reappear (less people travelling, need to balance the books, lets make cut backs) and it's a downward spiral.
Windermere is a very good example of precisely the sort of route that shouldn't be cut:

-Not particularly frequent to start off with.
- Always busy, often ram-packed
- a vital part of the railway's re-emergence as a generator and facilitator of the leisure industry.

The key messages regarding transport, namely "essential travel only" and "private good, public bad", will have to continue for much of 2021. It will take years to reverse this trend as these messages will have become ingrained. A return to public transport use is only likely to occur where there are incentives to use it, namely for long distance inter-city journeys and in urban areas where there is road congestion. Therefore, in addition to cutting excess peak frequencies, cuts should be focussed on lightly used branch lines and secondary routes in rural areas, which is why I suggested that the DfT could consider retrieving the Serpell report and reconsidering it. Cutting routes in Scotland and Wales in particular, even if unpopular, is unlikely to lose many seats for the Tories.

This sounds very much like stirring, however first off, it's for another thread, but the public won't tolerate lockdown restrictions for another year. Officials pondering this approach need to start thinking of other ideas. "Essential travel only" won't be here for most of the year.

Rural lines recovered quicker than the rest of the network in the summer, and just because they're recovering to a lower base, that doesn't mean that the reason for supporting those services in the first place has gone away.
 

yorksrob

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I wonder if the two fast services from Reading to Redhill (with one continuing to Gatwick Airport) would be reduced back to 1 an hour? It's currently a trail. I guess it depends on whether they make enough money from running 2 an hour.

If less trains ran to Waterloo, hopefully fast trains could stop at Clapham Junction in the peaks. Currently the 07:33 and 08:33 Woking to Waterloo stopping trains do serve stations between Surbtion and Waterloo, so that is an improvement for some passengers, thanks to covid-19.

I dare say there are a few services in the South that could go back to half hourly - maybe even hourly at a push.

Better connections at Clapham Jnc would be a good dividend from a less "peaky" service.
 

infobleep

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yorkie

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Ianno87

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I wonder if the two fast services from Reading to Redhill (with one continuing to Gatwick Airport) would be reduced back to 1 an hour? It's currently a trail. I guess it depends on whether they make enough money from running 2 an hour.

If less trains ran to Waterloo, hopefully fast trains could stop at Clapham Junction in the peaks. Currently the 07:33 and 08:33 Woking to Waterloo stopping trains do serve stations between Surbtion and Waterloo, so that is an improvement for some passengers, thanks to covid-19.

...But if you put peak Clapham stops in....you'd never be able to take them out again if demand did return.

I repeat, choices must not be made now that rule out the railway being able to react to future return of demand.
 

dk1

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One big issue going forward is going to be staff availability, especially for roles like driver. The training backlog must now be immense in places, to the extent I don't think it would be possible to reinstate a full MF timetable if they wanted to, at least not without cancellations. In all honesty I'm amazed they're running as much as they are in places.
The difference with driver training during all this is quite stark between different TOCs. At my particular one (which was involved in the initial bubbles idea) it has gone from strength to strength. At my depot alone the union has agreed to a training link where 8 instructors have been temporarily released to fast track trainees caught in the backlog through. From the new year that is increased to 12. At the same time other volunteers have come forward to bubble up with a road learner to allow this to continue too.
 

infobleep

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...But if you put peak Clapham stops in....you'd never be able to take them out again if demand did return.

I repeat, choices must not be made now that rule out the railway being able to react to future return of demand.
Well they managed it after the strike action last year. Anyway that's getting off topic.

I'm sure there will be a tug of war over this across departments, TOCs and some rail users, whatever happens.

Would the government consider a passenger consultation on cuts and where to implement them?

In doing so would they need to release passenger figures for individual trains? I can't remember if they are released. I know the top 10 busiest trains use to do the rounds in the newspapers.
 
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theageofthetra

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The problem is the government messaging over the 9 months has scared many from using public transport. Even when restrictions were at their lightest over the summer the message was only use public transport if you have no alternative. Too many now associate public transport a being a place where may get ill, partly as that is because the government have been telling them that.

Next year the railways are going to need to highlight the advantages they have over other forms of transport and reassure people that they are not laden with disease if they want to get people back using them.
The only way you will attract the 1/2 day a week commuter back is via more flexible season tickets.

The difference with driver training during all this is quite stark between different TOCs. At my particular one (which was involved in the initial bubbles idea) it has gone from strength to strength. At my depot alone the union has agreed to a training link where 8 instructors have been temporarily released to fast track trainees caught in the backlog through. From the new year that is increased to 12. At the same time other volunteers have come forward to bubble up with a road learner to allow this to continue too.
Has there been a pay incentive to do this?
 

Bletchleyite

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A friend who works in Canary Wharf has moved to Norwich from the Essex suburbs. Only needing now to go in to the office once or twice a week. He plans to drive rather than sit on a train. Not sure I understand why he sees that as a better option, but it is an attitude and response I have heard from others.

Because Canary Wharf is a sod to get to - and from much of Essex you'd need to go into London and back out.

It should never have been built, and it is good to see the City is now the centre of business again (at least pre-COVID). If there's a reduction in need for office space, turn it into flats and pretend it was never built.
 

dk1

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Has there been a pay incentive to do this?
Of course. It wouldn't have gotten through otherwise.

Because Canary Wharf is a sod to get to - and from much of Essex you'd need to go into London and back out.

It should never have been built, and it is good to see the City is now the centre of business again (at least pre-COVID). If there's a reduction in need for office space, turn it into flats and pretend it was never built.
What's wrong with a simple change onto the DLR at Stratford?
 

Bletchleyite

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Let's not forget you will start to see some move to work remotely in lower tax countries. Several Caribbean islands are offering incentives, Greece is offering half tax for 7 years, Bulgaria is 10% flat rate etc.

A few. Most people will not be willing to relocate abroad because it's away from friends and family. And tax paid has more to do with where you live than where you work, so you won't be able to get a job "in Bulgaria" and do it from the UK and pay the low tax.
 

Peregrine 4903

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One thing people in this thread need to remember is that a lot of TOCs have already reduced there train service by close to 20% and other cases even over 20%.

Take Avanti West Coast for example: the xx00 to Manchester Piccadilly, xx03 to Birmingham New Street have both been completely withdrawn already. The London Euston to Chester services have also practically both been withdrawn apart from a couple of services a day and a Crewe to Chester. The Glasgow Central via Birmingham services have also mostly been cutback to Preston or Blackpool North. And the peak extra services to Liverpool Lime Street and the Blackpool North via the Trent Valley services have been completely withdrawn. I haven't worked it out but this has to be at least a 20% cut in services, perhaps more. And as people have mentioned the only large savings involve sending stock off lease, Avanti could if they wanted to withdraw all their Chester, Wrexham General, Holyhead and Shrewsbury services and then send the Voyagers off lease early. They could then wait and see how demand builds up while they wait for their IEP's.

Crosscountry are another example. They have withdrawn:
Manchester Piccadilly - Briston Temple Meads
Newcastle - Reading
Birmingham New Street to Leicester
That should be close to a 20% service reduction.

TPE are another example. They have withdrawn:
Manchester Airport - Newcastle
Manchester Airport - Glasgow Central

Liverpool Lime Street to Scaraborough has been cut back to York to Scarborough
Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes, now mostly go from Manchester Piccadilly

This should also be close to a 20% service reduction.

Some TOCs haven't really massively reduced their timetable but a lot are close or have already achieved the 20% service reduction so if this 20% service reduction is required by the DfT no need for them to reduce any more services.
 

The Ham

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The key messages regarding transport, namely "essential travel only" and "private good, public bad", will have to continue for much of 2021. It will take years to reverse this trend as these messages will have become ingrained. A return to public transport use is only likely to occur where there are incentives to use it, namely for long distance inter-city journeys and in urban areas where there is road congestion. Therefore, in addition to cutting excess peak frequencies, cuts should be focussed on lightly used branch lines and secondary routes in rural areas, which is why I suggested that the DfT could consider retrieving the Serpell report and reconsidering it. Cutting routes in Scotland and Wales in particular, even if unpopular, is unlikely to lose many seats for the Tories.

The problem is that it wouldn't take much of an increase in traffic to highlight how bad an idea using the private car is.

However, even if overall use stays low if you're not going into work very much the cost of each mile you travel increases significantly. Many costs (such as insurance, a service, MOT, VED) are fixed regardless of if you do 1 mile or 10,000 miles (OK servicing can increase above that but then will be fixed until the next threshold), even purchase costs are broadly fixed (the cost of a 1 year old car with 10,000 miles on the clock isn't double that of one with 20,000 miles).

As such if you work one day a week driving 15 miles each way rather than 5 days a week, your annual milage falls by 5,400 miles, but your cost savings wouldn't fall to 2/6ths, rather they're likely to fall to 4/6ths, but that means your milage costs have doubled.

It's where those with one car will likely to carry on justifying the ownership of that car, however those with more than one car may well reduce the number of cars. However in doing so it could result in then using rail for some of their other travel.

Having said that, there maybe a few who then decide (probably over time) that it would make sense not to own a car at all, which may then decide to use rail for their travel to work.

You need the economy to rediscover reasons to travel - commuting to a location that’s not your home to work, travel to have face to face contact with others, to have an experience (culture, entertainment, etc).

You can maintain frequencies and cut prices. But if London and the south east are in pseudo Tier 4 until June 2021, then people won’t return. So thats next years income blown like this. By then the short term need to save money on everything but infrastructure will be the mantra. That will see jobs cut in rail occupations and budgets.

A friend who works in Canary Wharf has moved to Norwich from the Essex suburbs. Only needing now to go in to the office once or twice a week. He plans to drive rather than sit on a train. Not sure I understand why he sees that as a better option, but it is an attitude and response I have heard from others.

I'd have thought that the parking and congestion charges would be quite significant on such a journey.

You bet. Plenty of people will have experienced the great British weather. This is (partly) what killed off the domestic tourism market in the first place. Only die-hards (like me!) do UK holidays.

A lot of people would have been forced to stay in the UK this year and with a fairly good summer it could remind people of how the UK can be nice.

If course, of there's still requirements to wear masks on aircraft that'd going to put people off. Likewise with fewer flights available, there's a good chance that overseas holidays could be more expensive. That's before there's any rules (such as requiring Covid-19 tests and/or needing to have had the vaccine) which impact on the attractiveness of travelling.

The DfT could dig out the Serpell report and implement it.

Other than rail use has grown by a significant amount since then.

Since privatisation is doubled (so from 100 to 200) so a 20% fall in use would bring us back to a level still much higher than at privatisation (so from 200 down to 160).

I think Ian Walmsley said the most sensible thing that I think the DFT may have reminded the treasury. They need to look very long into the future, probably 2022, as to where rail travel will be and how many people will be expected to travel. As Ian says if you stop services on a line completely, it does not take very long for the line to fall into disrepair. How much would it then cost to get the line operational again to a sufficiently good standard to get passengers traveling again? The costs of running a service with very few passengers may be cheaper than closing it to then payout to repair it in the future plus crew retraining etc etc. One thing the rail industry does need to do is take this opportunity to make trains more comfortable. Get rid of ironing board seats etc and get trains to a good standard.

Indeed. The largest falls are likely to be seen on the very busy lines into London and may see almost none on those quiet branch lines which would transitionally be at risk of closure.

The key thing to me is that vital regional services which already have services of one train an hour or less, should not see reductions. Reductions should be made on routes with frequent services, but for which the justification for that frequency has fallen away.

Going to twice an hour on Manchester/Birmingham - London is an example where this is sensible. Thinning out some Thameslink core frequency might be another.

Indeed see above.
 
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Ken H

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But listing routes like that is meaningless unless you can be sure that the railway cost/revenue deficit would be net reduced with a less frequent service. I.e do each of the 6 services between York and Newcastle generate more revenue than the marginal cost of running them?


We *should* have frequent services where there is a commercial case to do so.
too much ORCATS raiding going on. the revenue sharing rules need rewriting
 

21C101

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I would love to see your calculations behind this statement.
Take off lease all the trains that only run in the peak or strengthen offpeak services to 8-12 cars. Make redundant all the staff not needed if they don't run. Cancel things like the upgrade of Seelhurspaghetti Junction north of Croydon which is not needed if the peak hour only fasts to London Bridge/Bedford no longer run. Reduced maintenance costs as infrastructure has less use with the consequent ability to defer renewals etc.
 

philthetube

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I would love to know how much expenditure would be reduced by cutting services by 20%, savings to railtrack would be negative numbers as they would lose income and there would be virtually no reduction in expenditure, the only savings I see would be drivers wages and savings from stock being laid up, this would be pretty small fry on the scale of things.
 
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