CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Speed43125]

I agree the TFW 150/153/158's are all old & tired that need to be replaced, they have been great trains but need air con that works & a far better customer experience.
People forget customers want a punctual nice clean working train with a seat & are not bothered about a lot of the issues some posters on here go on about.

The CAF 197's haven't even been built yet & are condemned by some, they have been ordered & are on their way in the near future. I do think the flaw is that they are all just DMU's not hybrid or bimodel power trains. but previous transport ministers have stopped the electrification on routes & north / mid Wales / borders areas will be a low priority once the wires start going up.

I like many are looking for to new trains arriving on the Wales & borders franchise after over 15 years of no growth plus no new rolling stock. Whilst looking in envy at every other TOC getting nice new units.

Do have a peek around some of the refurbished 158s though... they do look very smart indeed

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do have a peek around some of the refurbished 158s though... they do look very smart indeed

They basically have an identical interior to the Mk3s.

 

[RealTrains07]

They basically have an identical interior to the Mk3s.

Not nearly as old as a mark 3 though.

thats the difference. Younger and still 9 year away from being life expired. People seem to be very desperate to throw away what we have for something different

class 197 may be new and modern (comparer to 150s at least) but question is whether the 197s remain in wales long term?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Can I just check the composition of your fleet of 51 high quality DMUs please ?
Because if it includes the 158s I have to disagree. The 158s were a pretty good trin in their day for a particular use. But they have very rarely managed to deliver successful air conditionng, and my last journey on one started off nicely at 0830 but rapdily declined as the temperature hotted up along with pax on the train.

They are 30 years old, have had their day and the expense of finally sorting the air con is not justifiable. i

Yes, it does include the 158s. I wonder how the aircon faired last summer - apparently it has been overhauled and I wonder whether this has fixed the issues. I must admit to having overlooked that issue when I said '51 high quality DMUs' but I still think - when they work - they are a very high quality product. When the aircon packs up on a hot day then yes they are rubbish, but given that I would keep them for 8-11 years I would suggest that, if the recent overhaul hasn't done the trick, it'd be worth sorting out.

I agree the TFW 150/153/158's are all old & tired that need to be replaced, they have been great trains but need air con that works & a far better customer experience.
People forget customers want a punctual nice clean working train with a seat & are not bothered about a lot of the issues some posters on here go on about.

Well, unfortunately for the Cambrian the choice is aircon that might not work (158) or an otherwise inferior customer experience (197) with less chance of a seat, a higher risk of having to queue if you want the loo, a very unpopular seat (Fainsa Sophia) and less chance of a good view (on a scenic route). Punters might not be too bothered about some of that, but where does your "far better customer experience" come from? The 197s are inferior in almost every way - that might not matter to some but you can't claim "a far better customer experience".

I do think the flaw is that they are all just DMU's not hybrid or bimodel power trains. but previous transport ministers have stopped the electrification on routes & north / mid Wales / borders areas will be a low priority once the wires start going up.

Yes, that's the key flaw - the other issues could be fixed by finding a route where the design choices made on the 197 are actually appropriate but most of the routes where that is the case need EMUs or bi-modes. As for the routes the 197s were ordered for, electrification of many of them would be a low priority as you say but Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury is an exception to that. It has 3 trains per hour, plus an occasional London service, and upgrades are on Midlands Connect's wishlist. Beyond that, the North Wales coast and Cardiff to Carmarthen are both on Network Rail's 'core electrification' list.

 

[73128]

Scotland has already pledged to be rid of diesel passenger trains by 2035 with most of their electrification to be done by then and all bar the West Highland due to eventually have a signficant portion under the wires. So they won't need any of the Civity DMUs, and neither will Anglia thanks to their FLIRTs. The only routes on the TDNS map where a Civity DMU could run without wasting investment in electrification by running under the wires for a substantial part of the trip are:

• Newport - Ebbw Vale (Cardiff - Ebbw Vale has more under-wires running)
• Conwy Valley Line
• Wrexham Central - Bidston
• Oxenholme - Windermere (if you don't ru
• Looe, Falmouth, Gunnislake and St. Ives branches
• Henley and Marlow Branches (assuming no through running onto the GWML)
• Middlesborough - Whitby
• Darlington - Bishop Auckland

Based on this topic, that's about 22 units in service daily. Everything else really ought to be able to draw power from OHLE and/or third rail and even then I get nowhere near 161 self-powered units. Admittedly that's the end game and we've a long way to go before we get there, but if we want to decarbonise rail by 2050 with a steady rate of electrification we are looking like having a surplus of diesel units sometime after 2040.

The Cornwall and Thames valley GWR branches (6 sets plus spares) are all short journeys and ideal candidates for battery technology with fast recharge at termini. Probably also true of Didcot to Oxford although I imagine that will get wired soon. Severn Beach?

 

[anthony263]

Patchway and Bristol parkway to Bristol TM supposed to be getting electrified once re signalling is completed

 

[py_megapixel]

Nobody has even rode on a 197 yet & I find the pure hatred for a train that's not built quite baffling. As other posters have said the 197's are coming & I've actually enjoyed being a passenger in Northern 195's.
It's a improvement on a 30 year old ageing train, that needs replacing & the 197's are coming.

Regarding the electrification of the N Wales coast firstly Crewe - Chester needs wiring & remodeling of Chester station.
Then WBQ to Chester needs wiring to make the N Wales electrification viable in any business case.

Plenty of people have explained why there is such hatred for the 197s.

From a passenger's perspective, they are literally nothing more than a 195 with a different colour scheme and poorly configured IET seats.

 

[James Kevill]

If the railway in Wales are electrified, the Class 197 Civitys could be converted into Battery Electric Multiple Units with Battery Packs and Pantograph carriages and reclassified into Class 335 Civitys.

 

[Wyrleybart]

If the railway in Wales are electrified, the Class 197 Civitys could be converted into Battery Electric Multiple Units with Battery Packs and Pantograph carriages and reclassified into Class 335 Civitys.

Provided a suitable pantograph well could be cut into the roof of the intermediate vehicle and the weight of transformer etc would still balance against engine and fuel tank. Ideally CAF need to keep the construction jigs for the class 331 pantograph car for potential future orders as it would probably be easier to purchase the pan / tran vehicles from CAF than retro convert. I realise the manufacturer has a lot of difficulties at the moment but a hybrid unit based on the 196 / 331 bodyshells might be a useful selling tool for them, particularly if built in South Wales.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It's a improvement on a 30 year old ageing train, that needs replacing & the 197's are coming.

Assuming you are refering to 158s, they don't need replacing. A 158 is a massive improvement over a 150 and most of the 150s are likely to see 40 years in service. In what ways are class 197s an improvement over 158s? I can think of a few, but I can also think of several where the 158 is an improvement over a 197. This is a large part of my objection to the class 197s - one would hope for a new train to be at least as good as its predecessors in all respects and the class 197 is plainly inferior in many respects.

The Cornwall and Thames valley GWR branches (6 sets plus spares) are all short journeys and ideal candidates for battery technology with fast recharge at termini. Probably also true of Didcot to Oxford although I imagine that will get wired soon. Severn Beach?

All the routes I listed as potential homes for the Civity DMUs are identified as battery routes in the TDNS. Electrification is recommended for Didcot-Oxford, Severn Beach, Exmouth-Barnstaple and Par-Newquay. Hydrogen is recommended for the Cambrian and Heart Of Wales, but with Craven Arms to Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury to Birmingham and Llangennech to Swansea all down for electrification you would want something able to utilise the wires for those routes.

If the railway in Wales are electrified, the Class 197 Civitys could be converted into Battery Electric Multiple Units with Battery Packs and Pantograph carriages and reclassified into Class 335 Civitys.

If the class 197s had been designed so that were easy to do, wouldn't TfW have been keen to advertise that fact? As I keep saying, such an exercise would almost certainly be significantly more difficult than eVoyager which itself ended up in the 'too difficult' bin.

Provided a suitable pantograph well could be cut into the roof of the intermediate vehicle and the weight of transformer etc would still balance against engine and fuel tank. Ideally CAF need to keep the construction jigs for the class 331 pantograph car for potential future orders as it would probably be easier to purchase the pan / tran vehicles from CAF than retro convert. I realise the manufacturer has a lot of difficulties at the moment but a hybrid unit based on the 196 / 331 bodyshells might be a useful selling tool for them, particularly if built in South Wales.

A bi-mode unit based on a hybrid of the 196 and 397 bodyshells would have got my vote - I even referred to such a thing as a 197 before TfW decided to call their units 197s rather than class 195/2 which is effectively what they are.

 

[tomuk]

particularly if built in South Wales.

Assembled is the word you are looking for. The 'input' in Wales is negliable. It would proably make more finanical sense for the WG to pay the workers to sit at home.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming you are refering to 158s, they don't need replacing. A 158 is a massive improvement over a 150 and most of the 150s are likely to see 40 years in service. In what ways are class 197s an improvement over 158s? I can think of a few, but I can also think of several where the 158 is an improvement over a 197. This is a large part of my objection to the class 197s - one would hope for a new train to be at least as good as its predecessors in all respects and the class 197 is plainly inferior in many respects.

Newer engine, less polluting, more efficient mechanical transmission, aircon that actually works, bog door that doesn't get stuck all the time, easier to board/alight when busy through wide doors, large overhead racks, better accessibility (the 158 only *just* complies I believe).

The rest of it is down to the rubbish seats and seat layout TfW have specified, plus a bit of CAF "build quality".

 

[tomuk]

Newer engine, less polluting, more efficient mechanical transmission, aircon that actually works, bog door that doesn't get stuck all the time, easier to board/alight when busy through wide doors, large overhead racks, better accessibility (the 158 only *just* complies I believe).

The rest of it is down to the rubbish seats and seat layout TfW have specified, plus a bit of CAF "build quality".

Would the 197s be better if they reduced the trolley/cycle/buggy/disabled space and replaced it with a couple more seats and a small toilet? 168/170 style.

The CO2 and NOx emissions from the 197 will be vastly better than the Euro 0 Perkins engined 158s and better than the Cummins 175.

 

[37424]

Newer engine, less polluting, more efficient mechanical transmission, aircon that actually works, bog door that doesn't get stuck all the time, easier to board/alight when busy through wide doors, large overhead racks, better accessibility (the 158 only *just* complies I believe).

The rest of it is down to the rubbish seats and seat layout TfW have specified, plus a bit of CAF "build quality".

Indeed I made a couple of 2 hour journeys from Leeds to Lincoln before Lockdown and overall I thought the 195's were very nice trains and a significant improvement on a clapped out 158, and in particular Air Con that works, the much quieter ZF transmission, and diesel engines to the latest emission regs, rather than diesel engines built to the emission regs of 30 years ago

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This is a large part of my objection to the class 197s - one would hope for a new train to be at least as good as its predecessors in all respects and the class 197 is plainly inferior in many respects.

Why don’t you wait until it’s actually been built and entered service first? You cannot form an opinion such as that based on artist impression images alone.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Newer engine, less polluting, more efficient mechanical transmission, aircon that actually works, bog door that doesn't get stuck all the time, easier to board/alight when busy through wide doors, large overhead racks, better accessibility (the 158 only *just* complies I believe).

The rest of it is down to the rubbish seats and seat layout TfW have specified, plus a bit of CAF "build quality".

Ok, so here's what we have. Points in favour of 197s (vs 158):

1. Air quality / health (reduced NOX and particulates in exhaust)
2. Reliability of air conditioning (does not apply vs 175s)
3. Shorter dwell times
4. Overhead luggage racks
5. Greater seat pitch (does not apply vs 175s)
6. Better accessibility (does not apply vs 175s)

I've not included the toilet door thing, as I'm not not aware of a problem with the 158s.

And points in favour of 158s:

1. Greater seating capacity
2. Much better seat design (also applies to a degree with 175s vs 197s)
3. More table bays, providing much better window alignment (also applies with 175s vs 197s)
4. Additional toilet provision (also applies with 175s vs 197s)
5. Much better provision of ground-level luggage racks (also applies to a degree with 175s vs 197s)
6. Interior doors seperating saloons from vestibules (also applies with 175s vs 197s)
7. Build quality
8. Not a barrier to electrification by 2050 due to age (also applies to 175s)

Plenty of pros and cons with all three types - but in my view for a long distance route the features where the 158 wins out are more important than those where the 197 wins.

 

[Energy]

Build quality

CAF isnt famed for its quality but I dont here anyone saying the 158s are particularly high quality.

 

[HSTEd]

My own experience is the interior ride of a 195 is much better than a 158.

 

[Bletchleyite]

CAF isnt famed for its quality but I dont here anyone saying the 158s are particularly high quality.

They've got excellent seats, but those could (and should) have been fitted to the 197s too. Indeed, some of the initial renders did, I think.

 

[Rhydgaled]

They've got excellent seats, but those could (and should) have been fitted to the 197s too. Indeed, some of the initial renders did, I think.

I think it was the tram-train renders that had the Grammer seats, the first 197 renders I saw had ironing boards.

 

[the sniper]

Surely the low speed acceleration of the 197 will be far better than a 158? Should at least make some kind of improvement to journey times on the Cambrian north of Dovey Junction with all those stations and relatively low, brake and go linespeeds?

 

[37424]

All the the 1st gen Sprinters are getting to the age when they should be replaced, Wales is getting the opportunity to replace them all while Northern will likely be stuck with many of them for some years yet, If there is some progress on the electrification front in Wales then I'm sure there will be opportunity to use them to strengthen other services or cascade elsewhere. As for the 2040 Diesel Deadline it may be unhelpful because instead of investing new less polluting diesel trains as Wales has done other franchises may end up running old diesels for much longer than needed, as the alternatives are not mature and well developed enough as yet, other than mass electrification which is very expensive.

 

[squizzler]

Surely the low speed acceleration of the 197 will be far better than a 158? Should at least make some kind of improvement to journey times on the Cambrian north of Dovey Junction with all those stations and relatively low, brake and go linespeeds?

Indeed I made a couple of 2 hour journeys from Leeds to Lincoln before Lockdown and overall I thought the 195's were very nice trains and a significant improvement on a clapped out 158, and in particular Air Con that works, the much quieter ZF transmission, and diesel engines to the latest emission regs, rather than diesel engines built to the emission regs of 30 years ago

I look forward to experiencing the ZF equipped trains. As for the point about the Cambrian route, perhaps the new units will sound happier than the 158s. I find the groaning and moaning of the motors and their hydraulic slush pumps rather an annoying sound on the stop-go, low speed line there. I enjoy the noise when the train is thrumming along fast line from (say) Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton and upper sections of the Cambrian, but on the minor line the yo-yoing engine note between accelerating and idling seems to only emphasise the lack of progress.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I look forward to experiencing the ZF equipped trains. As for the point about the Cambrian route, perhaps the new units will sound happier than the 158s. I find the groaning and moaning of the hydraulic slush pumps rather an annoying sound on the stop-go, low speed line there. I enjoy the noise when the train is thrumming along fast line from (say) Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton and upper sections of the Cambrian, but on the minor line the yo-yoing engine note between accelerating and idling seems to only emphasise the lack of progress.

They basically sound like a bus (because it's basically the same setup). Not unpleasant, though, and they don't have the horrible whiney noise 158s generally do.

TBH, ignoring the CAF built quality issue, it wouldn't to me be hard to make them very suitable indeed by building them a vehicle longer, adding a second (small) bog, a better choice of seats at a lower density and window-aligned and more floor-level luggage provision (I don't agree with those who say the door layout is wrong for these services). In essence all they are is a poor-man's 170, and those would be very suitable, and they do have some key advantages over 170s, e.g. the very large overhead luggage racks.

 

[craigybagel]

I look forward to experiencing the ZF equipped trains. As for the point about the Cambrian route, perhaps the new units will sound happier than the 158s. I find the groaning and moaning of the motors and their hydraulic slush pumps rather an annoying sound on the stop-go, low speed line there. I enjoy the noise when the train is thrumming along fast line from (say) Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton and upper sections of the Cambrian, but on the minor line the yo-yoing engine note between accelerating and idling seems to only emphasise the lack of progress.

One of the (MANY) issues with 158s, specifically in this case the Perkins engined ones (which include the entirety of the TfW fleet) - although like most BR 2nd generation DMUs there are 7 notches of power available, notches 1-4 give very little power before a massive jump to near full power in notch 5. This is especially noticeable when the line speed is low and the driver is having to make constant adjustments to keep as close to that speed as possible.

One of many reasons I can't wait to see the back of them.

 

[Anonymous10]

Assuming you are refering to 158s, they don't need replacing. A 158 is a massive improvement over a 150 and most of the 150s are likely to see 40 years in service. In what ways are class 197s an improvement over 158s? I can think of a few, but I can also think of several where the 158 is an improvement over a 197. This is a large part of my objection to the class 197s - one would hope for a new train to be at least as good as its predecessors in all respects and the class 197 is plainly inferior in many respects.


All the routes I listed as potential homes for the Civity DMUs are identified as battery routes in the TDNS. Electrification is recommended for Didcot-Oxford, Severn Beach, Exmouth-Barnstaple and Par-Newquay. Hydrogen is recommended for the Cambrian and Heart Of Wales, but with Craven Arms to Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury to Birmingham and Llangennech to Swansea all down for electrification you would want something able to utilise the wires for those routes.


If the class 197s had been designed so that were easy to do, wouldn't TfW have been keen to advertise that fact? As I keep saying, such an exercise would almost certainly be significantly more difficult than eVoyager which itself ended up in the 'too difficult' bin.


A bi-mode unit based on a hybrid of the 196 and 397 bodyshells would have got my vote - I even referred to such a thing as a 197 before TfW decided to call their units 197s rather than class 195/2 which is effectively what they are.

what is recommended for west wales?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The provenance of the trains - made in Wales - is no doubt a factor in the huge interest that Welsh Government is now showing for rail and integrated transport in general. The Cardiff attitude used to be positively antedeluvian on transport matters but has now become almost progressive. Also we must consider the train manufacturing industry needs new orders while transitioning to new technologies. Manufacturers are hardly going to have the resources to develop all these lovely new trains you think we should be buying if nobody orders the ones they have and they go out of business. Drivetrain manufacturers like Voith and ZF also need to keep their factories humming along fast they develop their zero carbon systems. Perhaps the proposed 'rail innovation centre' for South Wales will not only have a hand in developing the next generation of trains but also play its part in developing affordable ways of decarbonising the Civities, in partnership with their original builder just down the road?

Civitys are Spanish trains with mostly EU components, with UK deliveries for TfW/WMT being screwed together in Newport.
That doesn't amount to a full-house rail technology centre in Wales, though it's better than nothing.
All the other majors have the same approach: UK assembly of a European/global design.
Bombardier is now also Alstom, so their offering might change (though they don't seem to be majoring on diesel trains).

 

[Domh245]

All the other majors have the same approach: UK assembly of a European/global design.

Aventra is a specifically british design and was designed in Derby, although it does use a whole host of European/global parts.

 

[craigybagel]

Aventra is a specifically british design and was designed in Derby, although it does use a whole host of European/global parts.

Although given its rather belated entry into service I'm not sure if that's something to be proud of!

 

[Anonymous10]

I think there is a lot of love for keeping the rolling stock that TFW have at present, even though it's very old & needs replacing.

honestly im happy with their current stock refurbed 150+153 is adequate and relatively comfy on my journeys and 158/175 are great as are the 170s