FCC Notice of intention to prosecute

[Solent&Wessex]

I have had dealings with the First Group prosecutions unit in a professional capacity, so might I make a suggestion.

Firstly, please do not ignore the letter they sent you asking for your version of events. This will form the basis of any possible prosecution, so you MUST explain everything you have said here as regards the mention of a penalty fare.

Make it clear that you did not intend to deliberately avoid payment of the fare and that you had every intention of paying a penalty fare within the timescale offered by the Inspector at the time. If it does go to court they have to prove that you intended to avoid payment of the fare concerned.

If it does go further, then they are very keen on out of court settlements at the moment. I know via the TOC I work with that out of court settlements are often preferred. This also means that you would pay a lesser amount directly to First, but I believe you would also avoid the matter of a criminal record.

 

[cessna]

I have had dealings with the First Group prosecutions unit in a professional capacity, so might I make a suggestion.

Firstly, please do not ignore the letter they sent you asking for your version of events. This will form the basis of any possible prosecution, so you MUST explain everything you have said here as regards the mention of a penalty fare.

Make it clear that you did not intend to deliberately avoid payment of the fare and that you had every intention of paying a penalty fare within the timescale offered by the Inspector at the time. If it does go to court they have to prove that you intended to avoid payment of the fare concerned.

If it does go further, then they are very keen on out of court settlements at the moment. I know via the TOC I work with that out of court settlements are often preferred. This also means that you would pay a lesser amount directly to First, but I believe you would also avoid the matter of a criminal record.

I've already sent the letter but I've put pretty much everything I've said here in it.

Settling out of court is exactly what I want. The one thing I don't want is a criminal record. I'm broke but I can always borrow money of my parents if I have to, so money is not an issue within reason.

 

[yorkie]

I did remove some earlier inappropriate comments. I would like to thank everyone who has responded recently to this topic for doing so constructively. I know that some members of this forum are upset at the way the OP was treated in the initial posts and that he was not given good advice in the first few answers; some have expressed this opinion in this topic and some to me privately. I have to say they have a point.

I would like to request that anyone who wants to post a "you deserve it" type post and/or an unhelpful post, to please consider simply keeping those views to yourself (or among friends!) but not to post them here. This part of the forum is intended to help people, rather than wallow in someone's misfortune. Yes, people who request help may not always get the answers they want, and I hope I wasn't too negative in my posts, but that doesn't mean that they should be ridiculed, told they have "no leg to stand on" etc.

This isn't a dig at anyone; we all make mistakes. But please do try to consider that we want this forum to be considered a great place for fares discussion. We won't all agree on everything but that's part of the fun. The main thing is to try to keep posts constructive and helpful. Thanks.

kwvr45's helpful post does indicate that there may be hope yet for the OP. Whatever anyone's views on this are, it's down to the OP and First Group what happens now. I wish him luck.

 

[cessna]

Cheers yorkie, and thanks to everyone else who replied.

I posted this thread expecting to be roasted and to be honest I deserve a kick up the arse too. But I didn't want people telling me that what I did was wrong. Or stupid. I know it was.

 

[googolplex]

From the OP's description it sounds like a 313. I was sat in first class on one last week (I wanted First on EC further north) and one person did sit down until their friend pointed out that it was first class and they moved, so confusion is possible.
cessna, at any point did the RPI or the police officer caution you? (along the lines of "You do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not mention now/when questioned something you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be used in evidence"). If not, was something like that printed in the paperwork you received or on the bit you sent back?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

From the OP's description it sounds like a 313. I was sat in first class on one last week (I wanted First on EC further north) and one person did sit down until their friend pointed out that it was first class and they moved, so confusion is possible.

We have already established, and the OP has said, that he knew he was sitting in first class with a standard ticket. Therefore, possible confusion is irrelevant.

 

[Death]

Just my two-bits worth regarding Penalty Fares and possible prosecutions...

A few years ago - I can't remember exactly when, but it involved an SWT 442 working during the Farnborough Airshow, just after the Avantix PDA machines had been issued - I got issued a PF by SWT because I'd arrived at Waterloo to find that my train to Farnborough was departing about 30-45 seconds later...So I made a direct bolt for the train, told the Guard that I wanted to buy a ticket on board, and obtained his permission to travel. When the Guard actually tried to sell me my YPR ticket however, his machine wouldn't process it - So he advised me to purchase this at the Farnborough gateline insted.
When I got to Farnborough, there was an RPO desk set-up on the platform that I approached so that I could buy my ticket. I explained the situation in full to the guys there (Suggesting they confirmed this with the Guard, but he'd already dinged the train out and this wasn't possible) but they wern't happy with it and issued me an on-the-spot PF notice.

Although I didn't have the cash to hand to pay off the notice in full, I did manage to pay half of it (The cost of a standard open single WAT-FNB - The PF being a 2x single fare job) on the spot. I wrote to both SWT and the PF Appeals service that afternoon outlining the situation again, requesting cancellation of the PFN and a part refund to drop the fee paid down to the YPR CDS that I'd initially tried to purchase.
They got back to me stating that - Although the PFN had thankfully been cancelled/considered resolved - My case was being regarded as if I'd not had my Railcard to hand at the time, so I'd be charged for the standard single fare that I'd already paid.

In retrospect, I think this was a far better outcome than being chinged full-whack and getting a PF strike against my name - And it didn't seem to affect my (Albeit unsuccessful) application to join SWT a few years later - But it does suggest to me that once a decision to do <something> has been made in relation to a PF, it's pretty hard to convince the issuer of the PF to do otherwise.
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Cessna: I've not been able to read the thread in detail, but by the sounds of things from my standpoint, it's possible that FCC might well try and drag ye through the court mill over this one. Ye say that ye will/already have sent payment for the full £85 due and have made it clear to FCC that ye intend to do this though, so at least ye seem to have reacted well to the consequences of thy mistake that night.

Bear in mind that if ye can't get FCC to accept payment of the PF in advance (They do have the right to refuse if court action has been decided on, I think...But it should go against them if they turned down any attempt to pay before court goes to session) ye'll probabally have to go through the mill, alas. Remembering SWT's PF posters, here's what ye might be looking at in the worst case scenario:

• Penalty Charge (Maybe)
• Full 1ST SGL fare due for thy journey,
• Court and solicitor fees due for both parties,
• Other fees clocked up by FCC in pursuing their claim against ye (Under the Civil Recovery Scheme)
• Plus possible other charges relating to the case

So it might well be worth putting aside any spare cash ye have now to make life a little less stressful just in case ye find thyself being overchinged and having to pay the whole lot! hock:
Side-note: Depending on thy circumstances, most Courts will allow fines and charges to be paid in installments at thy local court office and/or (Maybe) Police station.

Obviously: Keep a written record of all correspondance between ye and FCC that ye can present to the court if need be, and make sure that ye send any further communications connected to this via Recorded Delivery. If ye have sent payment already, keep a close eye on the status of that payment and - If they cash the cheque/charge thy card - Make sure ye obtain documentary evidence of this fact as if they've accepted payment of the PF due, then they might not have a valid reason to summon ye to court on top. It really depends on the court itself of course...But if FCC have already taken the PF from ye and still decide to take court action (Which they might do) the judge might hopefully throw this out as FCC wasting the courts time, and order FCC to pay the court costs!

Of course, there is one clear question to be asked here: Why on Earth - When seeing that ye'd boarded in the 1st class section - Didn't ye simply move into standard class right away? Would've saved ye a lot of trouble!
Note: The above is advice given from an unskilled, personal perspective. It does not constitute legal advice, and should not be relied upon as accurate. If in doubt, please speak to thy Solicitor.

 

[googolplex]

We have already established, and the OP has said, that he knew he was sitting in first class with a standard ticket. Therefore, possible confusion is irrelevant.

I know the OP has already said that, however if he didn't tell them that (or at least not in any admissable way), he could legitimately argue it was confusing should it get to court. Even more so if he was slightly intoxicated at the time.

 

[nedchester]

I know the OP has already said that, however if he didn't tell them that (or at least not in any admissable way), he could legitimately argue it was confusing should it get to court. Even more so if he was slightly intoxicated at the time.

I think the fact that he may have had a drink may have a part to play in the responses of the OP? Can he confirm?

There is nothing wrong with having had a drink and travelling by train (I should know I've done it plenty of times! )

From the OP version of event I reckon that there has been some kind of misunderstanding and would hope that FCC will accept his offer of payment.

Of course we do need to hear FCCs version of events but it is well known that they have a reputation for being bounty hunters when it comes to fare collection; you only have to look at some of the threads on this forum.

 

[cuccir]

I haven't been given a chance to pay. This is my point. I was expecting the letter in the post to be instructions to pay the penalty fare.

As above Your best bet is to call FCC, with your credit or debit card in hand, as soon as possible and ask to pay the fare. Tell them that you thought you had twenty one days and show contriteness: they might decide it's easier to take the money than bother prosecuting.

Other than that, I think that its clear that FCC are within their rights to prosecute now.

 

[yorkie]

In retrospect, I think this was a far better outcome than being chinged full-whack and getting a PF strike against my name - And it didn't seem to affect my (Albeit unsuccessful) application to join SWT a few years later - But it does suggest to me that once a decision to do <something> has been made in relation to a PF, it's pretty hard to convince the issuer of the PF to do otherwise.

Why would paying a fare affect employment with SWT?

 

[Death]

Why would paying a fare affect employment with SWT?

Until I'd sent in my letter appealing the PF referred to in my previous post (Where I mentioned my concerns over said PF and the fact that I might want to join SWT at some future point) I'd always thought that:
. . Railway = Business that wants to make money,
. . PF = Fine issued to someone who attempts to defraud services (Money) out of the railway*,
. . Therefore; TOC job application + PF history = Failure at initial application stage! hock:

...Of course, the seperate responses sent to me by both SWT and the PFA service in response to my letter (Which were quite similar) did clarify that a PFN is more or less a "Notice or advice to pay" stroke "Notice of charge and reason for issue" and doesn't necessarily lead to any kind of record if suitably paid off in time like mine was. That said, I've always been mortally wary of receiving anything like a PFN as I like to keep my nose clean.

* - No, I'm not saying that anyone who's ever received a PFN has knowingly tried to defraud the railway...Indeed the majority of PFNs tend to get issued following a simple misunderstanding of the ticketing/validity conditions on the passengers part, and therefore there's nothing wrong with having a resolved PF against thy name.
However, many employers - Especially today - Might look at someone's record, see the note "PF issued...", and drop that applicant straight away for the same reason that a Microsoft HR person would drop an applicant who drunkenly posted "Microsoft is crap" on their Facebook wall three years prior! hock:

 

[daikilo]

So why did they tell me I had an option?

Anyone know what the potential outcome of this will be? Fine? Criminal record?

My recommendation in such a clear-cut case is to pay as soon as possible and make sure you have proof you have paid. You appear to have already waited several days when you may have been able to pay earlier. Waiting too long means the issue becomes whether you are willing to recognise your error, independent of whether you were told you had three weeks to pay.

As far as I am aware, penalty fares do not need to be paid on the spot but must be within a short time. UK law does not ablige anyone to carry on their person more than a very small ammount of liquidity. Also, it is not a criminal offence to accidentally sit on a first class seat in a railway carriage when you had intended to sit in the class of your ticket. Your words in this blog appear to nullify auch a hypothisis!

Finally, you cannot have a criminal record if you have not been found guilty by a court of law (or probably a few other cases irrelevant for you). Given the police presence, I recommend you do not argue whether you were at fault (on your admission here, you were) and certainly do all you can to terminate a proposed court action as you may end up not only paying the fine but also covering costs and being registered.

 

[cessna]

From the OP's description it sounds like a 313. I was sat in first class on one last week (I wanted First on EC further north) and one person did sit down until their friend pointed out that it was first class and they moved, so confusion is possible.
cessna, at any point did the RPI or the police officer caution you? (along the lines of "You do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not mention now/when questioned something you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be used in evidence"). If not, was something like that printed in the paperwork you received or on the bit you sent back?

Yes, the police officer did caution me.

Who should I call to try and pay a penalty fare to? The prosecutions dept. or another number?

 

[daikilo]

Yes, the police officer did caution me.

Who should I call to try and pay a penalty fare to? The prosecutions dept. or another number?

Read the papers you have received and follow the instructions. If there are none, you may be able to plead ignorance, but I doubt that.

You will need a written trace of your payment actions. Pay the ToC as it is they who set the fare. If you have no address, call their number.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Cessna,

I have again read this entire thread and I strongly recommend to everyone to think carefully with your postings. If you provide detail apparently confirming your actions, it could be considered as a written statement about you.

Likewise, Cessna, you appear to want to resolve this quickly, have shown your concern to avoid penal action and have asked for guidance. This could play in your favour if you now do what is recommended, quickly.

An important detail I noticed is that you may be short of cash. I suggest you may wish to use this, if needed, to explain why it has taken you many days before you can pay off the fine and certainly why you could not pay it on the spot. You may even want to seek an extended payment period if such exists.

That said, I suggest you do all you can to avoid a second occurance.

 

[cessna]

I have not received any papers. How do I pay them when I don't know who to pay or how to pay. I've said it before.

 

[daikilo]

Just noticed someone suggested settling out of court.

This usually means between the fine and fine+court allocated costs. As far as I can see you have no need to go there but you could maybe try negotiating the fine with the TOC. Maybe e.g. offering to buy a new season ticket for your regular journey.

 

[EltonRoad]

So far, unless cessna hasn't told us everything, all he has received through the post is an intention to prosecute. If this also came with an option to pay a Penalty Fare, then why is he posting on here for advice? He would simply pay the Penalty and that would be that.

It sounds like he was given two options on the train, 1) a Penalty Fare or 2) court. I find it odd that the latter should be offered at all, I suspect whoever said this was jumping the gun and possibly trying to scare him into paying up on the spot.

There is no way anyone can expect him to have paid some £80 on the spot. He could justifiably claim that he didn't have that money on him. As with any fine, he should have a reasonable amount of time to pay. The problem here is that he has never been given that option and has only been told he will be prosecuted.

It sounds to me like he should ring the TOC, or the number on the letter, and ask why he hasn't been given an option to pay the Penalty Fare.

If you were caught speeding, it wouldn't be an automatic court appearance (unless you were doing over 100 mph) - you'd have a couple of weeks to pay the fine instead. Only if you didn't pay up, or indeed chose to go, would you actually go to court.

 

[cessna]

EltonRoad, that's spot on. I was given nothing on the train and I only received the notice of intention to prosecute in the post the other day. That's it.

 

[yorkie]

. . PF = Fine issued to someone who attempts to defraud services (Money) out of the railway*,

What made you think that? I am genuinely interested to know, because the more people who believe that myth, is more evidence that PFs are misunderstood, inappropriate, and should be scrapped.

Indeed the majority of PFNs tend to get issued following a simple misunderstanding of the ticketing/validity conditions on the passengers part, and therefore there's nothing wrong with having a resolved PF against thy name.

Depends what you mean by a validity condition; if you are referring specifically to being invalid on the 'Validity' part of the ticket (ie, the time restrictions), you can't be issued a Penalty Fare for that. Penalty Fares are for things like, if you forget to bring your railcard for example.

However, many employers - Especially today - Might look at someone's record, see the note "PF issued...", and drop that applicant straight away for the same reason that a Microsoft HR person would drop an applicant who drunkenly posted "Microsoft is crap" on their Facebook wall three years prior! hock:

I would hope that details of who has been issued a PF are not given to employers. I also don't see the link between insulting a company and doing something like forgetting to being your railcard?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It sounds like he was given two options on the train, 1) a Penalty Fare or 2) court. I find it odd that the latter should be offered at all, I suspect whoever said this was jumping the gun and possibly trying to scare him into paying up on the spot.

I agree, and this is consistent with what I've read about FCC RPIs on the GN route.

There is no way anyone can expect him to have paid some £80 on the spot. He could justifiably claim that he didn't have that money on him. As with any fine, he should have a reasonable amount of time to pay. The problem here is that he has never been given that option and has only been told he will be prosecuted.

Well, it wouldn't actually be a fine, but yes I agree.

I've read a report about the abysmal conduct of FCC's Targeted Enforcement Team. They consistently breach the PF rules. How on earth are they allowed to continue with their scheme I do not know.

If you were caught speeding, it wouldn't be an automatic court appearance (unless you were doing over 100 mph) - you'd have a couple of weeks to pay the fine instead. Only if you didn't pay up, or indeed chose to go, would you actually go to court.

Endangering lives on the roads is considered to be far more serious than knowingly sitting in a first class seat on a standard ticket, in the UK. This is because, if motorists were treated so harshly, there would be a massive outcry at the "war on the motorist". We're a car-loving country, sadly. Which is a shame as it's unsustainable.

 

[daikilo]

EltonRoad, that's spot on. I was given nothing on the train and I only received the notice of intention to prosecute in the post the other day. That's it.

Were you truly given nothing on the train? If yes, consult yr family lawyer.

 

[cessna]

Were you truly given nothing on the train? If yes, consult yr family lawyer.

Not a thing. I was a bit surprised to be honest, but having never been in that situation before I guessed that was just how they did things.

 

[bengolding]

Don't think I can post links here so can I suggest you visit the Consumer Action Group website. On their Forums, they have a Public Transport (trains, tubes and buses) sub-forum where I'm sure you'll get far more useful advice from experts in penalty fares as similar problems have been posted there with useful advice. There is also the Penalty Fare Appeal website.

I don't understand why you were initially charged so much when a First Class single from Kings Cross to Peterborough is £60 - precisely the ticket I bought last week?

Incidently, I was on a FCC train from Luton Airport Parkway last night. Glad to see the (isolated) RPI board at St Albans to penalty fare some youths in my First Class compartment. Ticket checks on this line are so random that it is often a free-for-all, esp in the peaks.

 

[daikilo]

Not a thing. I was a bit surprised to be honest, but having never been in that situation before I guessed that was just how they did things.

Oh really? In that case, what proof does anyone have that you were on that train and even less in that seat? Did you sign anything?

Not sure what we are achieveing by this exchange but let's continue to try to help.

 

[cessna]

I signed the paper form the inspector was filling out. The police officer also took down my details on his little electronic thingy.

 

[daikilo]

I signed the paper form the inspector was filling out. The police officer also took down my details on his little electronic thingy.

In that case, back up a few posts and pay a.s.a.p. Don't argue. d

 

[yorkie]

Don't think I can post links here so can I suggest you visit the Consumer Action Group website. On their Forums, they have a Public Transport (trains, tubes and buses) sub-forum where I'm sure you'll get far more useful advice from experts in penalty fares as similar problems have been posted there with useful advice. There is also the Penalty Fare Appeal website.

You can post links

I don't understand why you were initially charged so much when a First Class single from Kings Cross to Peterborough is £60 - precisely the ticket I bought last week?

If the single was £60, then it would be £120.

I don't agree with it, but a Penalty Fare is twice the full single fare.

You are right the Any Permitted fare is £60 however he was on FCC and was therefore entitled to the FCC only fare at £41.50, double that is £82.

EC do not operate PFs and do allow full fares to be bought (or excessed to) on board. So the OP would have paid less money to upgrade (assuming he had an Any Permitted ticket) and would have had a comfier seat and an at-seat service. But, of course, after the 2330 there are no further EC trains to Peterborough.

Incidently, I was on a FCC train from Luton Airport Parkway last night. Glad to see the (isolated) RPI board at St Albans to penalty fare some youths in my First Class compartment. Ticket checks on this line are so random that it is often a free-for-all, esp in the peaks.

PFs just don't work. Replacing friendly, helpful on-board conductors with unfriendly RPIs who are out to catch people is just a cynical, but ultimately futile, attempt to save money. If there were regular checks by on-board staff, it would be a more pleasant environment for everyone. It's better up North, believe me!

 

[EltonRoad]

In that case, back up a few posts and pay a.s.a.p. Don't argue. d

I may be wrong, but I think the point he has repeated time and again is that he hasn't been given the option to pay, and couldn't pay the initial demand for £82, because he didn't have that amount of money on him.

All he has received, through the post, is a statement of intention to prosecute.

He doesn't wish to go to court due to the risk of losing and hence getting a criminal record, and is willing to pay a penalty fare. The problem is he hasn't been given the option to do this, despite being told on the train he had three weeks to pay.

This is why he is in such a quandry.

 

[Death]

Content in this position has been moved to Post #506186.

--- Old post above / New post below: ---

What made you think that? I am genuinely interested to know, because the more people who believe that myth, is more evidence that PFs are misunderstood, inappropriate, and should be scrapped.

It may be just because I have AS and misinterperet the intended nature of a Penalty Fare, but when I see a PFN being issued (Or receive one myself) my first thought tends to be "Oh dear...I/That person is in deep crap with the railway now..." ad:

Depends what you mean by a validity condition; if you are referring specifically to being invalid on the 'Validity' part of the ticket (ie, the time restrictions), you can't be issued a Penalty Fare for that. Penalty Fares are for things like, if you forget to bring your railcard for example.

I was thinking of things like travelling outside of valid times (Like using an 09:00 train with a Super Off-Peak ticket) or on the wrong train (Common with Advance)...Which I thought could attract a PF if an RPI or commercial Guard came along.

That said, another of my (mis)understandings of PFs is that they're also used as a simple processing device for when the passenger has a legitimate reason for not paying the fare in full at the time (I.E: Passenger has valid ticket and £2.00 cash, but needs to add a £15.00 excess to their journey for some reason) in which case the PFN would allow the passenger to defer payment for a few days, whilst giving the issuing TOC the security in that - If the passenger subsequently refused to pay - They'd be able to take the non-paying passenger to court to recover the fare etc.
Is this actually the case, or have I got my facts muddled up?

I would hope that details of who has been issued a PF are not given to employers. I also don't see the link between insulting a company and doing something like forgetting to being your railcard?

I was being specific to railway related applications there, based on the assumption that the NRN keeps some form of "Black book" database (Holding details of those banned from the railway, serial PFers, vandals etc) to which TOCs and other connected organisations have access to for the purpose of railway policing.
I doubt (Hope) a non-railway firm wouldn't have access to that data though...Although employers do seem to be able to look up one's driving history, bans and endorsements etc. on the DVLA computer... :roll:

 

[radamfi]

Regarding settling out of court, is it possible to 'bribe' the TOC to avoid getting a criminal record? Say by offering them £10,000?