FCC Notice of intention to prosecute

[ralphchadkirk]

Regarding settling out of court, is it possible to 'bribe' the TOC to avoid getting a criminal record? Say by offering them £10,000?

Which might get you into a huge amount of trouble if the court found out.

 

[radamfi]

Which might get you into a huge amount of trouble if the court found out.

Yes, that's what I was thinking, but how different is this to 'settling out of court'?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Yes, that's what I was thinking, but how different is this to 'settling out of court'?

Settling out of court is not bribing someone to affect the outcome of a case.

 

[transportphoto]

Which might get you into a huge amount of trouble if the court found out.

If they had already opened a case with the court then bribery would be (I think) Preverting the course of justice.

 

[radamfi]

I thought that a victim of a crime had every right to refuse to press charges. If the victim and perpetrator come to an understanding, what's the problem?

 

[Ferret]

Death, the railway can report people for byelaw offences, and indeed do on a regular basis. Specifically, RPIs of some TOCs can interview you under caution as they have PACE training. So, getting on the train with no money and ticket (a byelaw offence of course) will land you right in the merde. If you are reported for a byelaw offence, I'm told that there is no defence - you've been reported because you did it and you'll be attending Court to be punished appropriately. This will probably be a fine, usually of around 300-400 quid.

Now, I've not got a copy of the byelaws on me at the moment so I can't be 100% sure, but is sitting in FC without a valid ticket not a byelaw offence? In which case, the OP is up the creek minus a paddle...

 

[radamfi]

but is sitting in FC without a valid ticket not a byelaw offence?

What about standing in first class? Is that against bylaws? fGW have signs forbidding standing in FC.

What are the rules about walking through FC, say to get to the toilets, or to the correct part of the train for short platforms or to get into the right part of the train before the train splits? Lots of people walk through FC to get to the front of the train at the end of the journey. What's the deal here?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

As much as you try to find a loophole radamfi, there isn't one.
Especially when the OP has admitted that he knew what he was doing and he was in the wrong.

 

[Death]

Now, I've not got a copy of the byelaws on me at the moment so I can't be 100% sure, but is sitting in FC without a valid ticket not a byelaw offence? In which case, the OP is up the creek minus a paddle...

It's starting to look like this might be the case with regard to the OP. If things are as ye say - And the OP's received a direct notification of court proceedings - Then he's probabally getting stuck for a Bylaw breach... hock:

Of course, the advice I gave in my earlier post still stands. Nothing wrong in going to the Police and asking them to see if there's anything outstanding on ye (I've done this on my own record in the past) - Indeed, I believe such enquiries might be honourable under the Data Protection Act - And the Police should be happy to help ye find out exactly what's going on regarding thy case. Be(a)st of luck with it, Cessna!

What about standing in first class? Is that against bylaws? fGW have signs forbidding standing in FC.

I've only got experience with VWC in this particular point, but VT Guards have always informed me that I have to have a First Class ticket if I want to stand in an FC carriage - Including the vestibules and door areas. I don't think standing exempts anyone from FC ticket requirements on any TOC, unless the Guard has granted special permissions to a passenger, or the carriage has been declassified.

What are the rules about walking through FC, say to get to the toilets, or to the correct part of the train for short platforms or to get into the right part of the train before the train splits? Lots of people walk through FC to get to the front of the train at the end of the journey. What's the deal here?

Walking through FC to reach another part of the train is always permitted, provided that ye have a legitimate destination (Toilet, SDO released door, friends in another part of the train etc) that necessitates walking through FC to do so. Of course, this wouldn't apply on stock with FC at the end of the train (Class 166s, for example) unless there is an open interconnecting door to an adjacent unit with SC accommodation.

 

[Ferret]

Death, you're absolutely right - even standing in an FC carriage without a standard ticket is not allowed! That's in the NRCoC.

Now, I'm told by RPIs that a byelaw offence is what's known as a Strict Liability offence. The upshot of that is that there is no available defence - you've been reported because you did it!

As regards sitting in FC with a standard ticket, there's an old case from 1880ish where somebody was taken to Court because he sat in First when there were no Third class seats available. Unsurprisingly, he lost! And of course, under the doctrine of judicial precedent, that case stands today!

 

[nedchester]

Death - what is all this ye and thy. Makes your posting very hard to read!!!

 

[Death]

There's an old case from 1880ish where somebody was taken to Court because he sat in First when there were no Third class seats available. Unsurprisingly, he lost! And of course, under the doctrine of judicial precedent, that case stands today!

Ye mean to say that a passenger with a third class ticket actually expected to have a seat? hock:

And to think I was surprised enough at the attitude of many modern SC passengers in that regard...
Of course, I can highly recommend standing on trains wherever possible - Even if seats are available. Takes a while to get used to it...But once ye've gotton comfortable with standing for the duration of thy regular commute, having to stand for three hours in a well-packed Sardine can Pendolino isn't nearly as bad as it used to seem!

--- Old bit above / New bit below: ---

Death - what is all this ye and thy. Makes your posting very hard to read!!!

I do apologise for my rather historical English...But that's what comes of listening to archaic Black Metal very often, and having to handle old documents a lot of the time doesn't help matters either!

 

[ainsworth74]

but is sitting in FC without a valid ticket not a byelaw offence?

It would appear so:

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I do apologise for my rather historical English

Well I quite like it so as far as I'm concerned carry on!

 

[swt_passenger]

Settling out of court is not bribing someone to affect the outcome of a case.

IANAL, but I don't believe ''settling out of court'' applies to criminal cases anyway, only civil claims.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

IANAL, but I don't believe ''settling out of court'' applies to criminal cases anyway, only civil claims.

Yes, I believe you are right on that.

 

[Ferret]

Death - what is all this ye and thy. Makes your posting very hard to read!!!

I think it's quite funny! It demonstrates a bit of personality at least!

Ainsworth - I thought there was a byelaw referring to that. OP - I think you may have to take your medicine and learn your lesson

 

[radamfi]

Walking through FC to reach another part of the train is always permitted, provided that ye have a legitimate destination (Toilet, SDO released door, friends in another part of the train etc) that necessitates walking through FC to do so. Of course, this wouldn't apply on stock with FC at the end of the train (Class 166s, for example) unless there is an open interconnecting door to an adjacent unit with SC accommodation.

What about on 444s when the 10 coach train only opens the front 5 at Clapham Junction? What often happens is that a queue forms from the doors at the back of coach 5 to the middle of coach 6. The problem is that coach 6 is the First Class coach so some people are actually standing for several minutes in FC while in that queue.

This may sound very pedantry but I wouldn't be surprised if a jobsworth RPI would insist on passengers forcing their way into coach 5 instead of forming a queue in coach 6, or wait behind the FC section in coach 6 until there is space to walk into coach 5 when the train has stopped.

 

[asylumxl]

I honestly can't believe the stupidity of expecting people to pay a First class fare to stand. I'm quite sure that the experience of standing is the same irrelevant of what coach/vestibule/seating area you are in. As far as I'm aware most vestibules are the same irrelevant of the class.

 

[mrcheek]

I honestly can't believe the stupidity of expecting people to pay a First class fare to stand. I'm quite sure that the experience of standing is the same irrelevant of what coach/vestibule/seating area you are in. As far as I'm aware most vestibules are the same irrelevant of the class.

I dont think thats what people are saying.
We're saying, if you dont have a first class ticket, then dont come into the first class section at all. Go stand in standard.

 

[Death]

What about on 444s when the 10 coach train only opens the front 5 at Clapham Junction? What often happens is that a queue forms from the doors at the back of coach 5 to the middle of coach 6. The problem is that coach 6 is the First Class coach so some people are actually standing for several minutes in FC while in that queue.

As those passengers are queueing to leave the train through the front unit - Which is necessary as SDO is in use in that example - That'd have to be regarded as "Reasonable presence in FC" because there's no other way by which passengers in the rear five could leave the train otherwise. Referring to the points in my previous post, that'd come under both Accessing another part of the train (The front unit) and Accessing doors released under SDO.

This may sound very pedantry but I wouldn't be surprised if a jobsworth RPI would insist on passengers forcing their way into coach 5 instead of forming a queue in coach 6, or wait behind the FC section in coach 6 until there is space to walk into coach 5 when the train has stopped.

I think if an RPI tried that on, a good dozen or so passengers would forcibly eject him from the train for being such an ass!

Seriously though, I think if an RPI tried to enforce FC "exclusivity" under circumstances like that, he'd be looking at a training recall at the very least. If he tried chinging standard class passengers with PFs on the other hand - And it was reported to the TOC/regulator - He'd most likely be looking at finding himself a new job very quickly!

Could ye imagine the outcry if a train was evacuated due to a fire or whatever, and an RPI tried to stop SC passengers from making exit via the FC section because they didn't have First Class tickets? That would be madness... hock::roll:

We're saying, if you dont have a first class ticket, then dont come into the first class section at all. Go stand in standard.

I presume that's why second class was renamed Standard Class a few years ago?

That said; I know I made a suggestion here a while back for the reintroduction of third class - Which was based on the idea that SC passengers would have seating priority over TCs - Which would offer affordable open fares in exchange for the likelyhood of having to stand. The thread's been locked for archival now, but can still be read Here if anyone's curious.

 

[asylumxl]

I dont think thats what people are saying.
We're saying, if you dont have a first class ticket, then dont come into the first class section at all. Go stand in standard.

But thats idiotic. What extra luxury do you gain standing in a FC vestibule over a Standard vestibule?

 

[bnm]

Originally Posted by nedchester
Death - what is all this ye and thy. Makes your posting very hard to read!!!

I think it's quite funny! It demonstrates a bit of personality at least!

I think it's pretentious, and agree with nedchester, it sticks out and makes the posts difficult to read. Like an annoying itch you are drawn to it and it detracts from my ability to take in what is being said - I have to re-read the posts mentally entering 'you' and 'your'.

 

[cessna]

Has anyone got a number I can ring to try and arrange payment of the penalty fare (that I haven't actually got) then?

 

[flymo]

But thats idiotic. What extra luxury do you gain standing in a FC vestibule over a Standard vestibule?

A far higher class of carpet or lino to stand on and a far higher class of traveller with whom to stand..

:P

P.S., I actually quite like the thy & thee

 

[radamfi]

But thats idiotic. What extra luxury do you gain standing in a FC vestibule over a Standard vestibule?

If it is crush loaded in Standard then you have the benefit of more personal space while standing in FC if there are few or no others standing around you.

 

[mrcheek]

But thats idiotic. What extra luxury do you gain standing in a FC vestibule over a Standard vestibule?

Its not about extra luxury or anything. Its about the fact that people have paid extra to sit in first class, and not have to be bothered by standard class passengers, who should stick to their own carriages.

First class tickets are not just about wider seats, and free coffee. Its all about the ambience and environment of the whole travelling experience.

I get pretty annoyed when Im in first and standard passengers at London terminals board at the first class end and walk through the train. This should be stopped, but few conductors bother. I have seen a few do it at Birmingham though, on Voyagers.

 

[flymo]

Its not about extra luxury or anything. Its about the fact that people have paid extra to sit in first class,

Paying a first class fare does not guarantee any seat, first or standard. Any first class ticket only gives permission to travel in first class, not to automatically get a seat.

 

[yorkie]

I honestly can't believe the stupidity of expecting people to pay a First class fare to stand. I'm quite sure that the experience of standing is the same irrelevant of what coach/vestibule/seating area you are in. As far as I'm aware most vestibules are the same irrelevant of the class.

On trains where standard has been full (as in all vestibules and aisles full of standees) first has been declassified, in my experience. So no, we weren't asked to pay more to stand.

This occurred on the 1800 from Kings Cross, on a Saturday when Arsenal had played Newcastle, oh, and it was also calling at Huntingdon.. and going via Leeds! And there was no train for another hour or something after that..!

Seriously when we got there at 1750ish, every aisle of each standard coach was full of standees. I've never seen anything like it on an InterCity type train.

Anyway brilliant excuse to stand next to the rear Valenta power car

 

[radamfi]

First Class on some routes, notably Southern and SWT long distance routes, is often worse than Standard, especially at night, because that is where unruly, typically non-fare paying, teenagers like to hang out. It used to be really bad in compartments on slam door trains.

 

[yorkie]

Ah, another stereotype. As Mumrar said earlier you can't stereotype people as 'fare dodgers'.

And surely compartments are better for carrying "unruly" passengers (assuming by unruly you probably mean making a noise? If not, what else do they do?) because it keeps them from disturbing other passengers?