Are Merseyrail stations exempt from smoking ban?.

[43167]

Was on Merseyrail for abit today & noticed people smoking on the platforms, thinking they were breaching the smoking ban. But then I noticed there were no 'No Smoking' signs on the stations I visited.

 

[tony_mac]

as long as they are outside then any smoking ban depends on whoever runs the station.

I don't think Merseyrail or Scotrail have a blanket ban, although I think most other train companies do.

Although it gets ignored quite often anyway.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

No, they're not.

Surprised Merseyrail Control didn't release toxic gas onto the platforms concerned

 

[Old Timer]

By agreement between Network Rail and ATOC ALL stations and trains are smoking free zones. This is enacted under Railway Byelaws legislation.

Certain stations which come under specific Fire Precautions Legislation are declared as smoking free under such legislation.

I would be very surprised indeed if there are no "No Smoking" signs at any of the stations you visited.

 

[tony_mac]

I'm not sure that is accurate.

Smoking is not permitted in enclosed areas at ScotRail stations (i.e. areas with at least three walls and a roof). This is in line with legislation. Likewise, all ScotRail trains are also non-smoking..

Obviously implies that smoking may be permitted in areas that are not enclosed.
also

Smoking is not allowed on Merseyrail trains or anywhere in underground stations for safety reasons.

although that may predate the smoking ban - Scotrails obviously does not.
I have certainly seen staff smoking on stations, and I also couldn't find any 'no smoking' signs.

 

[43167]

Birkenhead North, Bidston & Wallasey Grove Road.

 

[Old Timer]

I'm not sure that is accurate.


Obviously implies that smoking may be permitted in areas that are not enclosed.
also
although that may predate the smoking ban - Scotrails obviously does not.
I have certainly seen staff smoking on stations, and I also couldn't find any 'no smoking' signs.

Here is a copy of the ATOC Code of Practice relating to smoking on stations.

http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Other_Organisations/ATOC/ATOC%20Good%20Practice%20Guides/ATOCGPG015%20Iss%201.pdf

 

[tony_mac]

that's interesting, thanks.
although it does say that the ATOCs complete ban doesn't include Scotland.

I wonder if anyone told Merseyrail!

(and it is only in breach of the byelaws if there is actually a sign present)

 

[Old Timer]

that's interesting, thanks.
although it does say that the ATOCs complete ban doesn't include Scotland.

I wonder if anyone told Merseyrail!

(and it is only in breach of the byelaws if there is actually a sign present)

Merseyrail has long had a policy of no smoking, indeed since BR days because the trains operate through an underground system.

 

[merlodlliw]

Fishguard Harbour Railway Station
Stena Terminal
Station Hill
Goodwick
Pembrokeshire
SA64 0BU

Managed by ATW, does not have a smoking ban, due to its immediate proximity
to a level crossing, this is due to safety reasons excluding the lungs of course.

No person shall smoke or carry a lighted pipe, cigar, cigarette, match,
lighter or other lighted item on any part of the railway on or near which
there is a notice indicating that smoking is not allowed. ‘

No notice or sign is displayed at Fishguard, with only two trains every 24 hours
this is probably Wales least used railway station,for train movements.

 

[Greenback]

There are ahstrays on the platform at FIshguard! A clear sign that smoking is permitted!

 

[ukrob]

Merseyrail has long had a policy of no smoking, indeed since BR days because the trains operate through an underground system.

We aren't talking about on trains or underground stations though.

Some stations (Formby is an example) have a sign at each platform entrance stating various rules and byelaws. They state that smoking is not allowed on trains or underground stations. They are not ancient signs which have been there for decades. Waiting rooms have no smoking signs, platforms do not.

 

[mickey]

By agreement between Network Rail and ATOC ALL stations and trains are smoking free zones. This is enacted under Railway Byelaws legislation.

Not true.

When the smoking ban was introduced the government considered extending it to cover all railway stations and some clown decided against the idea, saying it could be added in later. No reasoning was given for this decision.

When the ban came into force the majority of TOCs decided to introduce their own bans on all stations, underground or not. The exception to this was Merseyrail (and, it seems from the above, Scotrail), which decided to ban it only at underground stations and in waiting rooms. They also put up no smoking signs under canopies but never enforce it, and neither does the BTP.

The biggest culprits of smoking at stations are actually Merseyrail staff (!); the cynic in me thinks this is most likely the reason why it was never actually banned, since the company at the time didn't want to pick even more fights with them.

The upshot is that we now have some of the only stations in the country where people can smoke - which really annoys me as it can be quite difficult to avoid it at times. I especially dislike having to stand in the rain when selfish idiots are smoking under the canopy.

I have of course pointed this out to Merseyrail, but of course received only the 'sod off, we don't care' letter in return.

(Incidentally, full marks to FGW here - possibly the only time I'll ever say that - for being the only TOC whose station staff regularly tell people to stop smoking, and actually doing something about it if they refuse.)

 

[Bedpan]

I had always understood that you can't smoke anywhere on a station platform in England (although you can for instance walk off the platform into the car park and light up), but in Scotland you can smoke on a platform as long as its in the open. I had always assumed that this was because Scotland had a different legal system to England and Wales and so the laws were worded differently. Fishguard however seems to have a special exemption as noted above. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7032642.stm

 

[mickey]

I had always understood that you can't smoke anywhere on a station platform in England (although you can for instance walk off the platform into the car park and light up), but in Scotland you can smoke on a platform as long as its in the open.

I repeat, station platforms were exempt from England's smoking ban.

Most TOCs banned it under their own rules but some chose not to, as was/is their prerogative to do so.

 

[First class]

Smoking is permitted on all Merseyrail surface stations.

It is only prohibited at Southport and the Underground stations.

However, in shelters and waiting rooms, smoking is still prohibited in order to comply with the legislation.

You need to consider the staff. Nearly every Merseyrail station is single-man staffed during hours of service. Most shifts last around 9 hours with a 30 minute unpaid mealbreak. A high proportion of staff smoke, they are essentially nicotine 'addicts'. It would likely be a breach of a union agreement and perhaps even various Human Rights laws etc...

Although I believe it should be banned throughout for the sake of consistency, it isn't really that big a issue considering most people assume it is banned anyway.

 

[cyclops]

My understanding is you can be prosecuted under railway byelaws for smoking 'near' a sign that prohibits smoking. So... if a TOC bans smoking on a station as a whole, and you do smoke, under what legislation would / could you be prosecuted? (assuming you are not smoking 'near' a sign)

 

[northwichcat]

They also put up no smoking signs under canopies but never enforce it, and neither does the BTP.

Some Merseyrail staff do fine people for smoking in shelters/canopies marked with no smoking signs but like most stations if there's just one member of station staff there and a group of people smoking they probably won't confront them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I repeat, station platforms were exempt from England's smoking ban.

The law states smoking is illegal in any enclosed public space. This means smoking in ticket offices, waiting rooms or trains is definetly illegal. Canopies and shelters are a bit debateable though but most transport operators and councils have decided canopies and shelters are enclosed public spaces.

 

[9K43]

I had to put up with smoking at HM in the mess room, on engines as it was the macho thing to smoke.
Nearly everybody smoked and it was tuff if you did not.
Imaging a job going to Fidlers Ferry Power Station with a chain smoking driver.
You could ride in the back cab and get gassed from the fumes off the Class 56 locos.
Some of these jobs made 18 hours plus, with no relief.
To me banning smoking was the best thing that ever happened for this country.

 

[swt_passenger]

that's interesting, thanks.
although it does say that the ATOCs complete ban doesn't include Scotland.

I think that's because the wording of the primary legislation in Scotland is completely different, and it was already in force when ATOC's rules for England and Wales were being decided upon.

 

[Greenback]

The law states smoking is illegal in any enclosed public space. This means smoking in ticket offices, waiting rooms or trains is definetly illegal. Canopies and shelters are a bit debateable though but most transport operators and councils have decided canopies and shelters are enclosed public spaces.

Technically, canopies are not enclosed enough for smoking to be banned automatically. Shelters are a bit more problematic, as I understand it there is a certain percentage of enclosure that is allowed, so presumably some shelters would be deemed OK lagally and others not!

It's far better to do as has been done in England and Wales, avoid confusion by imposing pretty much a blanket ban! Not that anyone is too bothered about enforcement at smaller stations. At my local station the other day a couple of youths on bikes went just inside the entrance, presumably so they couldn;t be seen, and began puffing away on the dog ends they'd got fromt he ashtrays outside!

 

[networkrail1]

Technically, canopies are not enclosed enough for smoking to be banned automatically. Shelters are a bit more problematic, as I understand it there is a certain percentage of enclosure that is allowed, so presumably some shelters would be deemed OK lagally and others not!

It's far better to do as has been done in England and Wales, avoid confusion by imposing pretty much a blanket ban! Not that anyone is too bothered about enforcement at smaller stations. At my local station the other day a couple of youths on bikes went just inside the entrance, presumably so they couldn;t be seen, and began puffing away on the dog ends they'd got fromt he ashtrays outside!

Maybe this may help you greenback.

http://www.smokefreeengland.co.uk/what-do-i-do/quick-guide.html

 

[Greenback]

Thank you, that is very helpful! My understanding was based purely on pub talk, after the boozer in question had to rebuild it's smoking shelter due to it being too enclosed!

 

[networkrail1]

Your welcome glad i could help out.

All the best

Simon

 

[tony_mac]

I think that's because the wording of the primary legislation in Scotland is completely different, and it was already in force when ATOC's rules for England and Wales were being decided upon.

No, as has been said before, it is nothing to do with the legislation.

Though there are some difference in scope between the Scottish, Welsh and English legislation, they may be regarded as identical for all practical purposes as far as the rail industry is concerned.

Also in the ATOC notice that OldTimer linked to, it said that 'most' stations in Scotland were non-smoking already. They didn't give any reason for not applying the regulations to the rest of them!

It is odd, though, that ATOC said all TOCs had agreed to the ban, when it is obvious that Merseyrail had not agreed.

ATOC’s members have agreed to extend the ban to all platforms and station footbridges within England and Wales

As for the 'breach of human rights' that is just laughable - why would Merseyrail staff have different human rights to almost every one else in the country?

 

[mickey]

You need to consider the staff. Nearly every Merseyrail station is single-man staffed during hours of service. Most shifts last around 9 hours with a 30 minute unpaid mealbreak. A high proportion of staff smoke, they are essentially nicotine 'addicts'. It would likely be a breach of a union agreement and perhaps even various Human Rights laws etc...

Erm, why? Can't they go 'outside' like everyone else? Other TOCs certainly manage it without it becoming a 'human rights issue'. And those based at underground locations certainly have to.

If I were a company that had a seemingly higher than average smoking rate, I would be seriously starting to consider why that was. Are working practices driving people to smoke? Or are we somehow managing to recruit a higher proportion of smokers than average?

I must admit that what annoys me the most is the pedestrian footbridge at Birkenhead North, where it's impossible to cross without getting a whiff from the 'smokers' garden' they've installed. I find myself having to hold my breath the whole way downstairs and will inevitably faint and fall one day. I've complained to Merseyrail about this but they won't even listen.

 

[ukrob]

Erm, why?

Because First Class is staff

 

[Old Timer]

Not true.

Section 4 of ATOC document TOSG/GPG015, which is still valid as far as RSSB is concerned, was the document quoted from. I presume it is this that you are stating is now inaccurate ?

 

[mickey]

Section 4 of ATOC document TOSG/GPG015, which is still valid as far as RSSB is concerned, was the document quoted from. I presume it is this that you are stating is now inaccurate ?

No, I am happy to defer to your better knowledge of ATOC documents. I was referring to the original working of the smoking ban at the time of implementation, at which it was made perfectly clear that railway stations would be exempt. This ATOC agreement obviously came about later and should have superceded the terms of the Act but obviously there was a breakdown in communication somewhere along the line. Presumably though someone should tell ATOC and Merseyrail that they are in effect disagreeing with each other and should sort it out pronto?

 

[yorkie]

You need to consider the staff. Nearly every Merseyrail station is single-man staffed during hours of service. Most shifts last around 9 hours with a 30 minute unpaid mealbreak. A high proportion of staff smoke, they are essentially nicotine 'addicts'. It would likely be a breach of a union agreement and perhaps even various Human Rights laws etc...

Is it a human right to have access to nicotine? I don't know, perhaps it is. But if so, it shouldn't be! However a solution is at hand, an electronic cigarette. No excuses to smoke now! (UK legislation here)

I saw one last week. Before that, I didn't know they existed. I thought it was a joke at first, but they are real. And, I'm told, it works out cheaper.