RMT to fight the cuts

[Journeyman]

But the Union want nationalisation which means government run. Now the government control, and not giving a wage rise how does that fit the narrative??

As always...be careful what you wish for.

 

[Iskra]

Its not just basic wages though, no pay rise affects the pension. It's a pay cut. Council Rates, up. Shopping, up. Petrol, up. Gas and Electricity, up. Even things like Sky TV, up. It's not a freeze, its a cut.

Rail fares. Up.

Your pension should still rise even with a pay freeze.

And, no, it’s not a pay cut. That’s simply untrue.

Also, ring sky and threaten to leave, they will reduce your bill. It is however a luxury, not a necessity.

 

[Wolfie]

It is, I agree. But lets not get bogged down in other industries. That's upto them to fight.

Agreed. But it means that you will get precious little (for which read no) support even from apparent natural allies.

 

[WelshBluebird]

And, no, it’s not a pay cut. That’s simply untrue.

If you do not get a pay rise that at least matches inflation, then yes it is a pay cut.
But sadly workers rights have been chipped away at so much in this country people tend to be blind to that.

 

[virgintrain1]

"the same workers who have kept Britain moving throughout the COVID pandemic at well-documented personal risk"

Hate this phrase! Many of my colleagues and I are very thankful and lucky to be allowed to come to work through the pandemic; getting to socialise with friends/colleagues, travel around the country, even just things like being able to sit on bench next the sea on my PNB miles from where I live and all legal! I felt so sorry for anyone stuck at home. Really not sure how I would have mananded being locked up!

 

[Iskra]

If you do not get a pay rise that at least matches inflation, then yes it is a pay cut.
But sadly workers rights have been chipped away at so much in this country people tend to be blind to that.

No. You are worse off in that situation, but unless your salary has been reduced it’s not a pay cut. Dear me.

It’s good to see the vast majority of the forum being realistic and sensible however

 

[Wolfie]

If you do not get a pay rise that at least matches inflation, then yes it is a pay cut.
But sadly workers rights have been chipped away at so much in this country people tend to be blind to that.

You need to get your terminology correct. In absolute terms, i.e. the amount of £s you are taking home, it isn't a pay cut. In real terms, i.e. the spending power that you have, then it absolutely is.

As an upper mid-management level Civil Servant l am approx 25% worse off in real terms than l was in 2010.

There is no natural law that says that you will remain at least neutral in real terms income year on year. Wages on the railway kept rising for a long time when that wasn't happening elsewhere. That isn't about to happen anymore.

 

[A0wen]

But the Union want nationalisation which means government run. Now the government control, and not giving a wage rise how does that fit the narrative??

What they *actually* want is a single government run entity, so we can regress to the 1970s and 80s and they can call a national rail strike and hold the government and travelling public to ransom. The travelling public will get fed up and stop using the railways which will lead to a further decline in passenger numbers and income. Not sure how that benefits anyone, but then again the union's demands for more money whilst refusing modernisation or productivity improvements doesn't make much sense either.

 

[Watershed]

Interesting, but I don't think the optics are going to play well. For me personally (and I imagine many train crew), having fewer shifts & more "spare at home" has more than compensated for a pay rise and I know some of the usual tasks have been suspended. I'm not saying some haven't worked extra and it has been a challenging time but this is hardly the only industry where this has happened. This all in a time where there has been an exceptional amount of subsidy given. Some will need to have a cold hard dose of reality, as pay raises would probably lead to job cuts, ultimately.

Indeed and there are certainly quite a number of people in the industry that have faced additional work without any extra compensation. That's life!

I fear this will get very ugly very quickly if unrealistic expectations aren't kept in check.

 

[Robertj21a]

No. You are worse off in that situation, but unless your salary has been reduced it’s not a pay cut. Dear me.

It’s good to see the vast majority of the forum being realistic and sensible however

Very true. Unusual to read such pragmatism on this sort of issue, long may it continue!

 

[Stigy]

All this will serve to do is confirm that it would be far cheaper and probably easier to simply thin out the workforce.

 

[Fuzzytop]

All this will serve to do is confirm that it would be far cheaper and probably easier to simply thin out the workforce.

Indeed. If there are going to be strikes anyway, may as well push through new DOO arrangements at the same time?

 

[miami]

Indeed. If there are going to be strikes anyway, may as well push through new DOO arrangements at the same time?

Having proven that the economy can work without people going into London every day, the country is in a great position to survive a rail strike. Now is the time for the tories to take a swinging axe to much of it.

As for "great personal risk" of train drivers sitting on their own in a closed cab, you're having a laugh. Supermarket workers, teachers, dentists, nurses, care home staff, undertakers, ambulance staff, police and prison officers, sure.

Driving an empty train up an down a line on £55k a year while 3 million people got nothing as they were legally prevented from running their business? Get over yourself.

 

[jettofab]

Having proven that the economy can work without people going into London every day, the country is in a great position to survive a rail strike. Now is the time for the tories to take a swinging axe to much of it.

As for "great personal risk" of train drivers sitting on their own in a closed cab, you're having a laugh. Supermarket workers, teachers, dentists, nurses, care home staff, undertakers, ambulance staff, police and prison officers, sure.

Driving an empty train up an down a line on £55k a year while 3 million people got nothing as they were legally prevented from running their business? Get over yourself.

Not every rail worker is a driver; if they're in the RMT then more likely not to be a driver.

I agree change needs to happen and I'm OK with no pay rise this year (although if we're splitting hairs over what constitutes a pay cut, then arguably an increase in salary to match inflation isn't a pay rise, no?) but when people start making grandiose suggestions about swinging axes, well you lose any moral high ground just as much as unrealistic train crew lose theirs.

 

[miami]

The conservative government (no friend to the public sector) has managed to get rail staff out of the private sector at the exact time it's removed its reliance on votes lost from strikes on the commuter lines into London, coupled with a pliant media, and a public who believe the pandemic means massive cost cutting, a public sector pay freeze aside from nurses getting a paltry 1%.

If it doesn't do things like enforcing DOO everywhere and closing almost every ticket office to hammer down subsidiy and/or prices, it's a massive loss.

 

[FFB6C1]

Having proven that the economy can work without people going into London every day, the country is in a great position to survive a rail strike. Now is the time for the tories to take a swinging axe to much of it.

As for "great personal risk" of train drivers sitting on their own in a closed cab, you're having a laugh. Supermarket workers, teachers, dentists, nurses, care home staff, undertakers, ambulance staff, police and prison officers, sure.

Driving an empty train up an down a line on £55k a year while 3 million people got nothing as they were legally prevented from running their business? Get over yourself.

Train drivers are more often represented by ASLEF so actually, RMT members have been at risk during the pandemic as they are the conductors and station staff who don't have the luxury of sitting in an enclosed air-conditioned cab all day. The pandemic is far from over even if the lockdowns are. Conductors are back to carrying out revenue duties where they are handling cash and god knows how many tickets/smartcards over the course of a shift as well as being struck standing in crush loaded saloons as the vaccinated middle-aged masses flock back to the railway for day trips out and to head to the pub. We are still very much at an increased risk of catching the virus.

 

[jettofab]

The conservative government (no friend to the public sector) has managed to get rail staff out of the private sector at the exact time it's removed its reliance on votes lost from strikes on the commuter lines into London, coupled with a pliant media, and a public who believe the pandemic means massive cost cutting, a public sector pay freeze aside from nurses getting a paltry 1%.

If it doesn't do things like enforcing DOO everywhere and closing almost every ticket office to hammer down subsidiy and/or prices, it's a massive loss.

Still no need for the air of glee in your post. What a rosy future the country has, employment rights trampled via things like fire and rehire, wages decreasing and people celebrating every time another industry can be brought down to the same level.

 

[Iskra]

Not every rail worker is a driver; if they're in the RMT then more likely not to be a driver.

I agree change needs to happen and I'm OK with no pay rise this year (although if we're splitting hairs over what constitutes a pay cut, then arguably an increase in salary to match inflation isn't a pay rise, no?) but when people start making grandiose suggestions about swinging axes, well you lose any moral high ground just as much as unrealistic train crew lose theirs.

There’s a pay-rise and an above-inflation pay-rise. These are all fairly normal terms.

Whining about a pay-cut when your pay isn’t being cut is simple dishonesty.

 

[AntoniC]

Which is understandable - but everyone is going through the same thing. Not saying its right, and I'm no fan of a "race to the bottom" but when the NHS are apparently barely deserving of a pay rise, I find it highly unlikely any other 'public' sector service is going to be at present.

As a Civil Servant, I was offered (and accepted) a 13% payrise over the next two years (7% consolidated 6% unconsolidated and paid as 3 lump sums 31/03/21, 30/06/21 & 30/06/22).
It did involve me agreeing to reforms of my T & C`s which included losing 1 1/2 days leave to fund the reforms as there was no extra money from the Treasury.
So good luck to the RMT for asking , thats what you join a Union for, let`s just hope there are cool heads doing the negotiation.

 

[bb21]

There is pay cut and real terms pay cut. I don't think arguing over technicalities is really that productive. What matters to people is whether their living standards decline, and that comprises a multitute of factors, of which wages is one.

 

[Iskra]

There is pay cut and real terms pay cut. I don't think arguing over technicalities is really that productive. What matters to people is whether their living standards decline, and that comprises a multitute of factors, of which wages is one.

Please explain how your pay can be cut, but not in real terms...

The truth is more than a technicality.

 

[JonathanH]

When the economy has started to recover properly, then come pay rises.

Let's hope not, that will just fuel inflation along with other factors.

I think there is a real need to increase pay for low earners, and I welcome provisions like saying that everyone earning under a certain amount (I think £24,000 pa is mentioned in the RIRG document) continues to get pay increases. That is the right thing for the RMT to really fight for.

But frankly, anyone earning over £50,000 a year needs a good long period now of pay freeze to allow the rest of the population to catch up. It would be good to see a situation whereby pay increases for high earners are restricted to a fraction (below 1) of the increases given to low earners within a company and for reporting similar to that we have seen around the 'gender pay gap' (ie an all-employee pay gap analysis) to make adherence to this public without it being the law.

 

[bb21]

Please explain how your pay can be cut, but not in real terms...

The truth is more than a technicality.

During economic contraction and price deflation.

Real terms is all relative.

 

[js1000]

Interesting, but I don't think the optics are going to play well. For me personally (and I imagine many train crew), having fewer shifts & more "spare at home" has more than compensated for a pay rise and I know some of the usual tasks have been suspended. I'm not saying some haven't worked extra and it has been a challenging time but this is hardly the only industry where this has happened. This all in a time where there has been an exceptional amount of subsidy given. Some will need to have a cold hard dose of reality, as pay raises would probably lead to job cuts, ultimately.

I'm not in the railway industry, I only have a fleeting interest in it as a commuter. I've been back in the office since February. Although my service has been a lot quieter since they introduced skip stopping in May 2018, it's still very quiet. I live in south Manchester and this morning my 9am commute I had an entire carriage to myself.

I think railway staff need to be careful and just accept that the industry is going to have to change whether they like it or not. Passenger numbers will return to 70-80% of their previous high watermark I feel, but the days of depending on bread and butter morning/evening commutes with packed passenger loads are over.

I overheard discussion on the platform at Manchester Piccadilly earlier about potential strikes earlier. The problem is if strikes happen the railway is dead because there are so few passengers at the moment relative to what we have been used to. The government may just turn around and mothball certain services and lines for a few years until there is an urge/demand for these routes again. At the same time they could take the opportunity to move to one man operation etc and implement a raft of changes that they wouldn't dare do if passengers were affected by strikes.

 

[miami]

Still no need for the air of glee in your post. What a rosy future the country has, employment rights trampled via things like fire and rehire, wages decreasing and people celebrating every time another industry can be brought down to the same level.

Exactly what the country wants. We get the country we deserve.

Railway staff are not special, and when the rest of the population have to pay increased taxes to fund payrises for staff that aren't needed (DOO, ticket offices) on services few are using, the thing the railway needs to do is learn humbleness. Ask the average person "you're paying £100 more in taxes for payrises, which public employees should it go to", and railway staff will be far down the list.

 

[Wolfie]

As a Civil Servant, I was offered (and accepted) a 13% payrise over the next two years (7% consolidated 6% unconsolidated and paid as 3 lump sums 31/03/21, 30/06/21 & 30/06/22).
It did involve me agreeing to reforms of my T & C`s which included losing 1 1/2 days leave to fund the reforms as there was no extra money from the Treasury.
So good luck to the RMT for asking , thats what you join a Union for, let`s just hope there are cool heads doing the negotiation.

Interesting. Which department is that if you don't mind me asking? Sounds like a buyout of unmodernised terms. I'm getting a straight zero rise...

Let's hope not, that will just fuel inflation along with other factors.

I think there is a real need to increase pay for low earners, and I welcome provisions like saying that everyone earning under a certain amount (I think £24,000 pa is mentioned in the RIRG document) continues to get pay increases. That is the right thing for the RMT to really fight for.

But frankly, anyone earning over £50,000 a year needs a good long period now of pay freeze to allow the rest of the population to catch up. It would be good to see a situation whereby pay increases for high earners are restricted to a fraction (below 1) of the increases given to low earners within a company and for reporting similar to that we have seen around the 'gender pay gap' (ie an all-employee pay gap analysis) to make adherence to this public without it being the law.

So basically anyone who got off their rearend and got a decent education, whether academic or vocational, and then found a commensurate job should be clobbered to allow the ones who didn't to catch up. A great recipe for mass migration of professionals and skilled workers. Pure genius NOT!

 

[VP185]

The RMT don’t seem to be the cleverest bunch!
Industrial Action will achieve nothing in the current climate, in fact, Industrial Action will probably benefit the TOCs and the DfT. With passenger numbers so low they’re saving money!
They’ve got disputes ongoing with ScotRail and the Caledonian Sleeper but the RMT seem surprised that no one wants to talk and resolve the dispute.
Secondly, in a time when we need passengers to return, striking is not going to entice them back.

We should consider ourselves to be very lucky. We’ve had short shifts, paid to sit at home on full pay and we’ve had no redundancies to date.
I fail to understand the need for a payrise right now. What would we be looking at, 2% perhaps. Take away tax and NIC and it’s not going to make a considerable difference to our quality of life.

Lets get this pandemic out of the way, get the passengers back on our trains, rebuild our industry and then seek the payrise. We all in the same boat with many other industries. The fact the RMT think we are something special having worked through the pandemic is quite frankly embarrassing.

 

[24Grange]

If you do not get a pay rise that at least matches inflation, then yes it is a pay cut.
But sadly workers rights have been chipped away at so much in this country people tend to be blind to that.

Welcome to the public sector!

 

[L401CJF]

The RMT don’t seem to be the cleverest bunch!
Industrial Action will achieve nothing in the current climate, in fact, Industrial Action will probably benefit the TOCs and the DfT. With passenger numbers so low they’re saving money!
They’ve got disputes ongoing with ScotRail and the Caledonian Sleeper but the RMT seem surprised that no one wants to talk and resolve the dispute.
Secondly, in a time when we need passengers to return, striking is not going to entice them back.

We should consider ourselves to be very lucky. We’ve had short shifts, paid to sit at home on full pay and we’ve had no redundancies to date.
I fail to understand the need for a payrise right now. What would we be looking at, 2% perhaps. Take away tax and NIC and it’s not going to make a considerable difference to our quality of life.

Lets get this pandemic out of the way, get the passengers back on our trains, rebuild our industry and then seek the payrise. We all in the same boat with many other industries. The fact the RMT think we are something special having worked through the pandemic is quite frankly embarrassing.

I'm not a rail worker, I'm a bus driver and I couldn't agree more with this.

I've worked right through the pandemic, a large number of colleagues were furloughed but are now all back in work. I was working short shifts on a reduced service with generous layovers (up to 40mins) at each terminus whilst carrying virtually nobody most of the time - all on full pay and I consider myself lucky.

I believe the company has thinned out some upper management to save costs, but so far no 'local' redundancies.

We are all very grateful that we still have a job. Passenger numbers have flown back up from around 5% to 70% last time I checked- possibly higher again now as that was some time ago. We had heard recently that our union had been in talks with the company over a pay rise, which really did come as a shock to us as I definitely would not expect a payrise in the current climate.

 

[bramling]

Put it this way - it doesn't sit well with people who have seen an income drop of 90% with absolutely no government assistance.

People like me.

The difficulty is it’s quite reasonable to construct a case which says “why should my pay be frozen when I worked right through without missing a day - risking my health in the process?”.

Same applies to the likes of supermarket staff, NHS etc.

Having said all that, if I were RMT I’d be focussing on non-pay.