WCML Disruption in Scotland (02/02/2021)

[92002]

Finally made Polmadie at 0432 only 102L. Give or take a couple of days.

 

[Humftamuft]

Do we know what caused the failure yet? Is the set back in service?

 

[InOban]

An earlier post suggested that the affected vehicle would need to be taken by road to repaired down south. That suggests several weeks.

 

[najaB]

An earlier post suggested that the affected vehicle would need to be taken by road to repaired down south. That suggests several weeks.

The whole vehicle? Is it not possible to remove the bogie at Polmadie?

 

[JModulo]

The whole vehicle? Is it not possible to remove the bogie at Polmadie?

Polmadie is only a light maintenance depot and doesn't have the facilities.

 

[bengley]

Down South being Longsight in Manchester. The bogie overhaul facility is based there.

 

[92002]

Polmadie is only a light maintenance depot and doesn't have the facilities.

Polmadie depot most certainly do have a bogie drop. Located on the other side of the main line from the depot. Although the mother ship is Longsight.

 

[Humftamuft]

An earlier post suggested that the affected vehicle would need to be taken by road to repaired down south. That suggests several weeks.

Seems a bit extreme for a hot box. Be a squeeze getting a low loader out of there too I would imagine.

 

[D6130]

Seems a bit extreme for a hot box. Be a squeeze getting a low loader out of there too I would imagine.

By all accounts it was a bit more than just a hot box...more like a completely seized axle.

 

[92002]

By all accounts it was a bit more than just a hot box...more like a completely seized axle.

No doubt the RAIB will be taking an interest and all will eventually be revealed.

Think all the Pendolino heavy work is now done at Widnes these days.

 

[Class 170101]

No doubt the RAIB will be taking an interest and all will eventually be revealed.

Really why would they be interested?

 

[theironroad]

Really why would they be interested?

I wouldn't have thought so as just a technical failure, for Alston and Avanti really, though sure Network Rail ain't too happy.

 

[D6130]

I wouldn't have thought so as just a technical failure, for Alston and Avanti really, though sure Network Rail ain't too happy.

.....but a technical failure which could have led to a catastrophic derailment if the train had continued much further at line speed, with the wheels getting hotter and hotter and eventually quite possibly disintegrating.

 

[theironroad]

.....but a technical failure which could have led to a catastrophic derailment if the train had continued much further at line speed, with the wheels getting hotter and hotter and eventually quite possibly disintegrating.

There are loads of technical failures that could lead to catastrophic results and the RAIB don't investigate everything.

Reality is, the fault was detected in time and no accident occured.

Having said that, I don't know either way whether they are investigating this.

Edit: having had a quick look at the raib website, it's not currently listed as under investigation. However, it does qualify under a couple of sections as a reportable incident.

So we will have to see if they do or not.

 

[Whistler40145]

By all accounts it was a bit more than just a hot box...more like a completely seized axle.

It certainly was more than just a hot box and I’ve seen a photo

 

[najaB]

No doubt the RAIB will be taking an interest and all will eventually be revealed.

They will probably take a professional interest, but I doubt they will release a report or bulletin.

 

[Humftamuft]

Doesn’t look like the axle locked from the pics posted on here, no signs of discolouration or flats. Likely locked once train stopped and heat intensified. Locked axle would have been reported via TMS and driver would have brought train to a stand straight away.

 

[bengley]

The axle didn't lock until the train came to a stand as others have said.

A rotation test was carried out to see if it could be moved into the loop before the wheelskate plan was devised and the wheel turned freely for 16 inches before seizing.

 

[Carntyne]

An earlier post suggested that the affected vehicle would need to be taken by road to repaired down south. That suggests several weeks.

The unit was driven directly to the bogie drop at Polmadie. They'll fix it there.

 

[LeylandLen]

The 390 involved was 390138, City of London. Good news is that it was back out today ( Tuesday ) . First working was 1M09 0836 Glasgow to Euston before making a return trip to Liverpool , and finally one to Wolverhmpton, then Oxley CMD. All went well going by timings.

So it was fixed at Polmadie,in 10 days, arriving late on 5th. Not aware yet as to exactly what caused the problem on 2nd. no doubt we will find out in due course. Not sure if RAIB will investigate, nothing yet on website ...

Rail Accident Investigation Branch

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) independently investigates accidents to improve railway safety, and inform the industry and the public. RAIB works with the Department for Transport .

www.gov.uk

but would hope so as passenger safety was involved, evacuating the train to another one.

 

[aleggatta]

literally can't see any RAIB investigation happening, it was one axle and TOCs know the seriousness of when a 'single point failure' piece of kit fails, if it was 2+ axles on the same train at the same time? possibly you might get them taking a look, but for something that I wouldn't say is as rare as say, a derailment on the network as a whole, and the fact that the 377 at Shoreham a few years ago had the same occur and no investigation. If the network did not have the mitigations in place it does now (Hot axle box detectors trackside and now more often coming onto the units, frequent non-destructive testing of axles and inspections of the bearing housing for signs of bearing failure), then I could see the need for an investigation. axles and wheelset condition is taken very seriously, but serious failures are few and far between and I can guarantee you the last person to have worked on that axle box will have their card marked in case there is another axle that fails and the info shows they are at fault.

 

[92002]

I'm not so sure that RAIB will let the incident pass so easily as you suggest. They do investigate near misses and the incident certainly looks like one that they will take an interest in. The train was doing near its maximum speed with thankfully not too many passengers on board in these strange times.

Guess time will tell. This could have turned into a very serious incident, with catastrophic consequences. Thankfully the presence of the hot box detector, which has been at the site for many years brought it to a safe conclusion. However these are few and far between.

 

[30907]

Not sure if RAIB will investigate, nothing yet on website ...

Rail Accident Investigation Branch

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) independently investigates accidents to improve railway safety, and inform the industry and the public. RAIB works with the Department for Transport .

www.gov.uk

but would hope so as passenger safety was involved, evacuating the train to another one.

Do RAIB routinely investigate train evacuations (genuine question)?

 

[Ceat0908]

Do RAIB routinely investigate train evacuations (genuine question)?

A week (or 2) earlier a 390 failed at bay horse. That train was ‘evacuated’ onto a TPE. That is not going to be investigated. Pax was transferred because of failed train, not because of any adverse effects due to the axle being hot. If it was fire it would be investigated if it put pax at risk but really everything worked in this situation. I doubt this will be investigated as the equipment to detect things like this worked and the train came to a stand. Don’t see any reason.

 

[zwk500]

Do RAIB routinely investigate train evacuations (genuine question)?

No, and they would have absolutely 0 reasons to if the evacuation was conducted in line with the rulebook and TOC policies.

Not sure if RAIB will investigate, nothing yet on website ...

but would hope so as passenger safety was involved, evacuating the train to another one.

If the RAIB haven't indicated an investigation yet, I doubt they're going to start now. Fundamentally, there's nothing for them to look at: a train developed a fault, the warning systems (trackside or train-borne) picked it up and brought the train safely to a stand in the intended place (just short of a very handy loop). Passengers were safely evacuated in line with procedure, and the train was recovered. It was a further fault on the train that delayed the recovery. If the RAIB investigated every train fault that required a stop & examine they'd never have time to look at the stuff that actually has safety value in the lessons learned.

 

[najaB]

Fundamentally, there's nothing for them to look at: a train developed a fault, the warning systems (trackside or train-borne) picked it up and brought the train safely to a stand in the intended place (just short of a very handy loop). Passengers were safely evacuated in line with procedure, and the train was recovered. It was a further fault on the train that delayed the recovery. If the RAIB investigated every train fault that required a stop & examine they'd never have time to look at the stuff that actually has safety value in the lessons learned.

Agreed, the only thing that might cause them to investigate was the early report that there was a fire involved.

 

[Falcon1200]

(Late to this topic having only recently joined RailUKforums)

I have, for nearly 40y, been astonished about the lack of any bidirectional facility on the WCML.

Are you offering to pay for it?

For some years part of my area as a Railtrack and then NR Controller was the WCML in Scotland, and if I had a pound for every time I moaned about the lack of bi-di signalling when an incident blocked one line, I could have retired far earlier than I did (probably before I had even started in fact!). Such a facility would have saved huge amount of delays over many years; Due to the remoteness of some locations SLW takes an age to implement, not helped by the fact that often four (4) members of staff are required on the ground.

 

[najaB]

(Late to this topic having only recently joined RailUKforums)

Welcome to the forum, hope you stick around!

For some years part of my area as a Railtrack and then NR Controller was the WCML in Scotland, and if I had a pound for every time I moaned about the lack of bi-di signalling when an incident blocked one line, I could have retired far earlier than I did (probably before I had even started in fact!). Such a facility would have saved huge amount of delays over many years; Due to the remoteness of some locations SLW takes an age to implement, not helped by the fact that often four (4) members of staff are required on the ground.

I'm going to guess that every time an incident happened that bi-di would have been useful in recovery, you had a conversation that went something like:
Boss: This is costing us a fortune.
You: You know, bi-di signalling would get the trains running and cut down the costs significantly
Boss: Yeah, but we're updating/replacing/installing [insert new idea] next month/quarter/year and we won't have another incident like this
You (to yourself): That's what you said last time...

 

[Bald Rick]

(Late to this topic having only recently joined RailUKforums)





For some years part of my area as a Railtrack and then NR Controller was the WCML in Scotland, and if I had a pound for every time I moaned about the lack of bi-di signalling when an incident blocked one line, I could have retired far earlier than I did (probably before I had even started in fact!). Such a facility would have saved huge amount of delays over many years; Due to the remoteness of some locations SLW takes an age to implement, not helped by the fact that often four (4) members of staff are required on the ground.

Retrofitting bi-Di is, essentially, a resignalling. So whilst it does save a lot of delay, it wold never be enough to pay for the bidi as a stand-alone investment. Doing it at the time of resignalling is much cheaper - but of course that line hasn’t been resignalled for nearly 50 years.

 

[Falcon1200]

Welcome to the forum, hope you stick around!

I'm going to guess that every time an incident happened that bi-di would have been useful in recovery, you had a conversation that went something like:
Boss: This is costing us a fortune.
You: You know, bi-di signalling would get the trains running and cut down the costs significantly
Boss: Yeah, but we're updating/replacing/installing [insert new idea] next month/quarter/year and we won't have another incident like this
You (to yourself): That's what you said last time...

Unfortunately bi-di signalling never seemed to be on the agenda, no matter how much we moaned about it !