ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[scotraildriver]

The deal initially included guards (and possibly others). It was specifically intended to cover staff shortages until the training of new staff was completed. This didn't take long for the RMT grades, so the deal ended. Training of drivers obviously takes much longer, so the deal continues. The RMT have no case.

This the the crux of the matter and I can't understand why it became an issue. The enhanced rate was paid to relevant grades and agreed by the relevant unions and was in place until "all relevant vacancies were filled and training complete". The RMT signed up to this along with ASLEF for drivers. The RMT grades were filled so the payment stopped AS AGREED. The drivers were recruited but due to 2 people not being allowed in the cab the training is miles behind, so the payment is contunung AS AGREED. When the drivers are fully trained the payment will stop. Most staff seem totally unaware of this agreement and going on about "parity" with drivers. The parity was there, everyone had the same deal but due to Covid restrictions the drivers one has gone on longer. But the point that must not be missed is that the RMT agreed to this.

 

[43066]

This the the crux of the matter and I can't understand why it became an issue. The enhanced rate was paid to relevant grades and agreed by the relevant unions and was in place until "all relevant vacancies were filled and training complete". The RMT signed up to this along with ASLEF for drivers. The RMT grades were filled so the payment stopped AS AGREED. The drivers were recruited but due to 2 people not being allowed in the cab the training is miles behind, so the payment is contunung AS AGREED. When the drivers are fully trained the payment will stop. Most staff seem totally unaware of this agreement and going on about "parity" with drivers. The parity was there, everyone had the same deal but due to Covid restrictions the drivers one has gone on longer. But the point that must not be missed is that the RMT agreed to this.

Agreed. The longer this dispute continues, the more I can’t help but think the RMT are creating a dispute out of thin air for the sake of it.

Drivers are more expensive than guards, so would naturally attract a premium to encourage them to do overtime. Drivers have different Ts and Cs in many respects, just as guards earn a lot more then platform staff, who also have different Ts and Cs. None of that is controversial, for what are fundamentally different jobs, with different levels of responsibility. Most RMT members I know (and I know quite a few) would agree with that.

I’m not sure what’s so different/special about Scotrail?

 

[320320]

What an idiotic and bizarre statement to make! This is a forum for people to discuss the issue in question. I’m not expecting anyone in the grade to care what I think, thats not why this forum is here is it! it’s my opinion on the matter which I’m perfectly entitled to post on here, just as everyone else is, but just as in previous threads, you don’t seem to like it If it goes against your own opinion. So I’m afraid your the one sounding condescending here my friend.

I think I know how this whole situation is going to play out, and if your honest, I’m sure you do as well.

You’re nothing more than a company stooge that would quite happily see employees being ridden roughshod over as long as scotrail get their way.

You’ve already shown that you had little regard for your colleagues safety concerns at the expense of continuing driver training during a global pandemic, now you want to force people to work rest days and overtime for no enhancements when drivers are given them.

If scotrail don’t want to pay these things then they should employ enough staff, make Sunday a part of the working week and make every hour worked part of a pensionable salary rather than attempting to run a service on the cheap.

 

[XAM2175]

You’re nothing more than a company stooge that would quite happily see employees being ridden roughshod over as long as scotrail get their way.

Are you perhaps reading a different thread than the rest of us are?

 

[320320]

Are you perhaps reading a different thread than the rest of us are?

Is there a particular part you disagree with?

 

[Falcon1200]

now you want to force people to work rest days and overtime for no enhancements when drivers are given them.

Nobody is forced to work Rest Days. And when O/T is worked are enhanced rates not given, Drivers currently receive a higher rate to address a particular situation, which was paid equally to Guards when that particular situation applied to them ?

 

[Dieseldriver]

Really my thoughts towards issues regarding RDW payments are simple, if you’re not happy with what’s on offer, don’t work them. I receive flat rate for working rest days, I don’t work them (not just because of it being flat rate, also because I value my time more than some extra overtime).
To work a rest day is a personal decision, some work none, some work a few and some seem to aspire to spend every waking moment at work. It’s outside of your basic working hours and is purely voluntary. On that basis, I really don’t think it is justified to strike over it.

 

[sd0733]

Agreed. The longer this dispute continues, the more I can’t help but think the RMT are creating a dispute out of thin air for the sake of it.

Drivers are more expensive than guards, so would naturally attract a premium to encourage them to do overtime. Drivers have different Ts and Cs in many respects, just as guards earn a lot more then platform staff, who also have different Ts and Cs. None of that is controversial, for what are fundamentally different jobs, with different levels of responsibility. Most RMT members I know (and I know quite a few) would agree with that.

I’m not sure what’s so different/special about Scotrail?

There does seem to be a bit of inconsistency here on the unions part, the deal of Sundays at my TOC is totally different to that of drivers and guards hourly pay ends up on a par if not slightly higher now than the hourly rate of the drivers. Theres not been any hint of unrest or threats of no work and those who dont like the deal dont do Sundays over their booked ones, simple.

 

[scotraildriver]

My personal view is that the RMT agreed to this deal because they didn't actually believe the company would fill all the vacancies. The railway has always relied on overtime to run and I don't ever remember all the RMT grades being fully staffed. However, the recruitment happened and now the RMT are trying to cover their own mistake so as not to look incompetent to their own members. Just my opinion but it is certainly shared by many RMT members. ASLEF policy is exactly the same, they want all vacancies filled (more members for them) and overtime to end completely. It's only happened once in my 18 year career and didn't last long due to leavers etc and the time taken to train new drivers. RMT grades can generally be filled much more quickly than drivers.

 

[GLC]

If scotrail don’t want to pay these things then they should employ enough staff

Based on what others have detailed about this dispute, this is exactly what Scotrail has done. They didn’t have enough staff, so enhanced overtime rates were agreed until more staff had been recruited. Enough staff has now been recruited, so Scotrail is declining to pay the previously agreed overtime rate, as there is now enough staff generally

 

[320320]

Based on what others have detailed about this dispute, this is exactly what Scotrail has done. They didn’t have enough staff, so enhanced overtime rates were agreed until more staff had been recruited. Enough staff has now been recruited, so Scotrail is declining to pay the previously agreed overtime rate, as there is now enough staff generally

Scotrail don’t employ enough staff to cover Sunday working, they want to continue to do it on the cheap by not paying an overtime enhancement nor having the payment subject to pension contributions.

 

[scotraildriver]

Scotrail don’t employ enough staff to cover Sunday working, they want to continue to do it on the cheap by not paying an overtime enhancement nor having the payment subject to pension contributions.

I agree on pensions but at my depot and any others in my area all Sunday work is covered by booked Sundays. You would only get overtime on a Sunday if someone wants off. Where is this not the case? As all the new recruits have booked Sunday work?

 

[320320]

Booked sundays are still overtime because scotrail don’t employ enough staff to cover them.

They want to have their cake and eat it, make Sunday a part of the working week and pensionable or pay an enhancement for it.

 

[scotraildriver]

Booked sundays are still overtime because scotrail don’t employ enough staff to cover them.

They want to have their cake and eat it, make Sunday a part of the working week and pensionable or pay an enhancement for it.

Sundays are "overtime" but not "voluntary". Surely you knew that? Sundays aren't staffed by volunteers. I have 18 Sundays a year which I'm contacted to work, albeit for additional "overtime" payment. But I MUST work them or ask for them to be covered. So all the jobs are covered by booked Sunday jobs, and you can't just not turn up for them. There are now enough staff for all Sunday jobs to be covered by "booked" or "contracted" shifts. This is why this action can be called a "strike" rather than an overtime ban, as people are not working contracted hours, even though they attract an overtime payment.

 

[John Bishop]

Sundays are "overtime" but not "voluntary". Surely you knew that? Sundays aren't staffed by volunteers. I have 18 Sundays a year which I'm contacted to work, albeit for additional "overtime" payment. But I MUST work them or ask for them to be covered. So all the jobs are covered by booked Sunday jobs, and you can't just not turn up for them. There are now enough staff for all Sunday jobs to be covered by "booked" or "contracted" shifts. This is why this action can be called a "strike" rather than an overtime ban, as people are not working contracted hours, even though they attract an overtime payment.

Agreed.

 

[Falcon1200]

Scotrail don’t employ enough staff to cover Sunday working, they want to continue to do it on the cheap by not paying an overtime enhancement

Are you saying that there is no enhanced pay for Sunday shifts, ie staff receive just 8 hours pay for an 8 hour shift, say ? Because that is not my understanding.

 

[320320]

Sundays are "overtime" but not "voluntary". Surely you knew that? Sundays aren't staffed by volunteers. I have 18 Sundays a year which I'm contacted to work, albeit for additional "overtime" payment. But I MUST work them or ask for them to be covered. So all the jobs are covered by booked Sunday jobs, and you can't just not turn up for them. There are now enough staff for all Sunday jobs to be covered by "booked" or "contracted" shifts. This is why this action can be called a "strike" rather than an overtime ban, as people are not working contracted hours, even though they attract an overtime payment.

I didn’t say sundays were voluntary. I’ve done enough to know how they work.

The point is, scotrail run a seven day service with enough staff to run a six day service by forcing staff to work overtime.

Are you saying that there is no enhanced pay for Sunday shifts, ie staff receive just 8 hours pay for an 8 hour shift, say ? Because that is not my understanding.

The whole point of the RMT strike action is because scotrail have removed the enhancement for Sunday working from RMT grades, if they were still getting an enhancement they’d be working sundays and rest days.

 

[Falcon1200]

The point is, scotrail run a seven day service with enough staff to run a six day service by forcing staff to work overtime.

That's no different from the day I joined BR in 1978 until I retired in 2016; Not at any time were Sundays part of the working week. I understood that if I took a job involving Sunday (and for that matter Public Holiday, including Xmas Day) working, I would indeed have to work those shifts ! (And receive the appropriate payment, of course).

scotrail have removed the enhancement for Sunday working from RMT grades

So if I may ask the question again, do Scotrail RMT staff receive flat rate only for Sunday shifts ?

 

[scotraildriver]

So if I may ask the question again, do Scotrail RMT staff receive flat rate only for Sunday shifts ?

Yes. Because that's what was agreed by the RMT. If all vacancies were filled the agreement was that Sundays would become flat rate. And that's what happened. It will happen to drivers too, once all the trainees are productive.

The point is, scotrail run a seven day service with enough staff to run a six day service by forcing staff to work overtime.

Surely you were aware of that when you signed up? It's just one of the things the railway does. Lots of staff like it the way it as they can opt out of Sundays if cover is available. I worked every Sunday in life before I joined the railway but there was no enhancement. Being paid extra for it is a bonus for me.

 

[XAM2175]

Is there a particular part you disagree with?

Oh no, it's all genuinely quite amusing. I just can't see how you're discussing the same dispute that it appears everybody else is.

 

[320320]

Yes. Because that's what was agreed by the RMT. If all vacancies were filled the agreement was that Sundays would become flat rate. And that's what happened. It will happen to drivers too, once all the trainees are productive.


Surely you were aware of that when you signed up? It's just one of the things the railway does. Lots of staff like it the way it as they can opt out of Sundays if cover is available. I worked every Sunday in life before I joined the railway but there was no enhancement. Being paid extra for it is a bonus for me.

I was fully aware, but times change. We didn’t get the Sunday booking on payment because of a driver shortage.

The genies out of the bottle now, I don’t see drivers ever going back to a flat rate for sundays and rest days.

Oh no, it's all genuinely quite amusing. I just can't see how you're discussing the same dispute that it appears everybody else is.

What bit is it that amuses you? It’s easier if you’re specific rather than posting cryptic quips.

 

[the sniper]

The genies out of the bottle now, I don’t see drivers ever going back to a flat rate for sundays and rest days.

If your colleagues in this thread are representative of the rest, I think you will! I imagine they're already forwarding their enhanced payments by cheque to Transport Scotland for the purposes of sustainability.

 

[scotraildriver]

If your colleagues in this thread are representative of the rest, I think you will! I imagine they're already forwarding their enhanced payments by cheque to Transport Scotland for the purposes of sustainability.

It certainly wouldn't bother me. To have a safe and relatively secure job in the current times is worth its weight in gold compared to a few extra ££ for a Sunday.

 

[320320]

If your colleagues in this thread are representative of the rest, I think you will! I imagine they're already forwarding their enhanced payments by cheque to Transport Scotland for the purposes of sustainability.

They’re not representative of the drivers I work with

 

[Kite159]

I was fully aware, but times change. We didn’t get the Sunday booking on payment because of a driver shortage.

The genies out of the bottle now, I don’t see drivers ever going back to a flat rate for sundays and rest days.

I can, but it will be forced.

Once Abellio are gone and it's run by the public sector the Scottish government simply giving the drivers & other staff two choices, accept Sunday working as part of the standard week with no overtime/premiums or say goodbye to the job. Using the same Fire & Rehire system used by other companies.

The RMT won't complain because they love things nationalised and won't have any "big bad foreign company" to attack.

 

[Journeyman]

The RMT won't complain because they love things nationalised and won't have any "big bad foreign company" to attack.

They'll quite happily use their members as pawns in the battle for nationalisation, and said members are likely to lose out badly.

 

[Dryce]

I can, but it will be forced.

Once Abellio are gone and it's run by the public sector the Scottish government simply giving the drivers & other staff two choices, accept Sunday working as part of the standard week with no overtime/premiums or say goodbye to the job. Using the same Fire & Rehire system used by other companies.

The RMT won't complain because they love things nationalised and won't have any "big bad foreign company" to attack.

Somehow I don't think the RMT will have any problems dealing with Holyrood on whatever terms *it* chooses.

 

[Falcon1200]

Yes. Because that's what was agreed by the RMT. If all vacancies were filled the agreement was that Sundays would become flat rate. And that's what happened. It will happen to drivers too, once all the trainees are productive.

Thanks for the info scotraildriver. Surprised the RMT ever accepted that !

 

[Bald Rick]

The whole point of the RMT strike action is because scotrail have removed the enhancement for Sunday working from RMT grades....

Which is what the RMT agreed to, is it not?

 

[alf]

Once Abellio are gone and it's run by the public sector the Scottish government simply giving the drivers & other staff two choices, accept Sunday working as part of the standard week with no overtime/premiums or say goodbye to the job. Using the same Fire & Rehire system used by other companies.

The RMT won't complain because they love things nationalised and won't have any "big bad foreign company" to attack.

But there were endless NUR & RMT strikes under BR & BR was nationalised.

So Kite is wrong in implying RMT won't complain & won't strike when Abellio is gone.
In fact the RMT(& ASLEF) will have more leverage by threatening directly elected Scottish politicians.