Current status on which routes and stock are DOO and which have Guards and what door control methods are used?

[capitalconnect]

I was wondering what the current status is on which trains and lines are DOO and which trains have Guards still. And on the trains that have Guards which door control operation is used. There have been so many strikes and changes and new stock introduced in recent years so it makes it hard to keep track of everything.

On some trains the guard both opens and closes the doors.

On some trains the driver opens the doors and the guard closes the doors.

On some trains the driver opens the doors and closes the doors but the guard tells the driver when to close the doors (ten bell despatch method).

Some trains are entirely DOO.

Some have an OBM or OBS onboard (who have nothing to do with the doors or despatch) but i do not think they are guaranteed so it is basically DOO still. I am not sure what is happening on AGA since the new Stadler Flirt but am presuming they use this method too perhaps? Not sure if this is happening on the new Merseyrail stock too?

I remember hearing a while ago that SWR (who is currently Guard open Guard close on all stock) are changing this soon to make the Driver open and close but i am not sure when. Is there any word yet on how the 701s will operate? Are they going to be DOO?

Likewise with the new 196s and 730s on LNWR and WMR are they going DOO? I think i heard a few years ago something about LM looking to go DOO so just wondering? Is there any word on the new TFW stock also?

Finally i am sure i heard something about the RMT being unhappy about the EMR 360s too? Are these now operating DOO on some journeys?

With all the new trains that have been introduced in the past years and all the RMT disputes it is difficult to keep up with the changes. So if anyone can confirm what stock is DOO or not and if it is not DOO than what door control method it uses that would be great.

By searching on this forum i found this very old thread from about five years ago but it is mostly out of date:

Door Opening and Door Closing procedures on Guard operated trains.

I'm just interested what are the door opening and door closing procedures on different Guard operated trains? There seems to be 3 methods. method a. The Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel. method b. The Driver open the doors and then the Guard closes the doors using the...

www.railforums.co.uk

So i have copied that list and tried to make a new more up to date list below. If anyone can help with any of the question marks that would be much appreciated. As there are quite a few with question marks that i am not sure about.

AVANTI WEST COAST:
• 221 - Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)
• 390 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 805 - ????
• 807 - ????

C2C:
• 357 - DOO
• 387 - DOO
• 720 - DOO

CALEDONIAN SLEEPER:
• MK5 - ????

CHILTERN RAILWAYS:
• 165 (North of Banbury) - Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)
• 165 (South of Banbury) - DOO
• 168 (North of Banbury) - Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)
• 168 (South of Banbury) - DOO
• 172 (North of Banbury) - Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)
• 172 (South of Banbury) - DOO
• MK3 - Guard Open - Guard Close

CROSS COUNTRY:
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 220 - Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)
• 221 - Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)
• MK3 - Guard Open - Guard Close

EAST COAST TRAINS:
• 803 - ????

EAST MIDLANDS RAILWAY:
• 153 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 156 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 180 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 222 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 360 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 810 - ????

EUROSTAR:
• 373 - ????
• 374 - ????

EUROTUNNEL:
• Eurotunnel Stock - ????

GATWICK EXPRESS:
• 387 - DOO

GRAND CENTRAL:
• 180 - Driver Open - Guard Close

GREAT NORTHERN:
• 387 - DOO
• 717 - DOO

GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY:
• 150 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 165 - Driver Open - Guard Close (or DOO on the Bourne End / Greenford / Henley / Marlow / Windsor branch lines and on some but not all services between Gatwick Airport and Redhill)
• 166 - Driver Open - Guard Close (or DOO on the Bourne End / Greenford / Henley / Marlow / Windsor branch lines and on some but not all services between Gatwick Airport and Redhill)
• 387 - DOO (Except for between Didcot Parkway and Cardiff Central where they have a Guard and use the Driver Open - Guard Close method)
• 769 - Guard Open - Guard Close (but due to possibly change to Driver Open - Guard Close eventually)
• 800 - Driver Open - Guard Close (Except for certain services between London and Oxford which run DOO)
• 802 - Driver Open - Guard Close (Except for certain services between London and Oxford which run DOO)
• MK3 (HST New Short Sets) - Guard Open - Guard Close
• MK3 (Loco Hauled Sleeper) - Guard Open - Guard Close

GREATER ANGLIA:
• 317 - DOO (Or as Guard Open - Guard Close on the few services that still have a Guard)
• 321 - DOO (Or as Guard Open - Guard Close on the few services that still have a Guard)
• 322 - DOO (Or as Guard Open - Guard Close on the few services that still have a Guard)
• 379 - DOO
• 720 - Driver Open - Driver Close (but with an 100% guaranteed Guard onboard who has no involvement in opening the doors or closing the doors or despatching the train) between, Norwich to Ipswich, Colchester to Clacton, Colchester to Walton, Manningtree to Harwich. / DOO (with a Guard normally onboard the train (but not guaranteed as the train can run without one) who has no involvement in opening the doors or closing the doors or despatching the train) between, London Liverpool Street to Ipswich but only on trains starting or terminating at Norwich. / DOO (but with no second person onboard) everywhere else.
• 745 - Driver Open - Driver Close (but with an 100% guaranteed Guard onboard who has no involvement in opening the doors or closing the doors or despatching the train) between, Norwich to Ipswich, Colchester to Clacton, Colchester to Walton, Manningtree to Harwich. / DOO (with a Guard normally onboard the train (but not guaranteed as the train can run without one) who has no involvement in opening the doors or closing the doors or despatching the train) between, London Liverpool Street to Ipswich but only on trains starting or terminating at Norwich. / DOO (but with no second person onboard) everywhere else.
• 755 - Driver Open - Driver Close (but with an 100% guaranteed Guard onboard who has no involvement in opening the doors or closing the doors or despatching the train) between, Norwich to Ipswich, Norwich to Sheringham, Norwich to Great Yarmouth, Norwich to Lowestoft, Ipswich to Lowestoft, Ipswich to Felixstowe, Ipswich to Cambridge, Ipswich to Peterborough, Norwich to Ely, Colchester to Clacton, Colchester to Walton, Manningtree to Harwich. / DOO (with a Guard normally onboard the train (but not guaranteed as the train can run without one) who has no involvement in opening the doors or closing the doors or despatching the train) between, Ely to Stansted Airport but only on trains starting or terminating at Norwich, London Liverpool Street to Ipswich but only on trains starting or terminating at Norwich. / DOO (but with no second person onboard) everywhere else.

HEATHROW EXPRESS:
• 387 - DOO

HULL TRAINS:
• 802 - Driver Open - Guard Close

IRISH RAIL:
• Everything - DOO

ISLAND LINE:
• 483 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 484 - Guard Open - Guard Close

LONDON NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY:
• 800 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 801 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• MK4 - Guard Open - Guard Close

LONDON NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY:
• 230 - ????
• 319 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 350 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 730 - ????

LONDON OVERGROUND:
• 378 - DOO
• 710 - DOO

MERSEYRAIL:
• 507 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 508 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 777 - ????

NORTHERN:
• 150 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 153 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 155 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 156 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 195 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 319 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 323 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 331 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 333 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 769 - Guard Open - Guard Close

SCOTRAIL:
• 153 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 156 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 318 - DOO
• 320 - DOO
• 334 - DOO
• 380 - Driver Open - Guard Close (on the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Carstairs / Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts / Edinburgh to Dunbar / Edinburgh to North Berwick services) / DOO (everywhere else)
• 385 - Driver Open - Guard Close (on the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Carstairs / Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts / Edinburgh to Dunbar / Edinburgh to North Berwick services) / DOO (everywhere else)
• MK3 - Guard Open - Guard Close

SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY:
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 159 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 444 - Guard Open - Guard Close (changing to Driver Open - Guard Close soon)
• 450 - Guard Open - Guard Close (changing to Driver Open - Guard Close soon)
• 455 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 456 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 458 - Guard Open - Guard Close (changing to Driver Open - Guard Close soon)
• 701 - Driver Open - Driver Close (but with an 100% guaranteed Guard onboard who has no involvement in despatching the train)
• 707 - Guard Open - Guard Close

SOUTHERN:
• 171 (Marshlink) - Driver Open - Guard Close (except on four coach units at Normans Bay and Pevensey Bay and Winchelsea where it is Guard Open - Guard Close instead)
• 171 (Uckfield) - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 313 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 377 - (all Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes Central services and some Redhill to Tonbridge services) - Driver Open - Guard Close when working from the saloon or Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch) when working from the cab
• 377 (all other services) - DOO (most coastway and mainline services are booked to run with an OBS onboard but they are not guaranteed)
• 387 - DOO
• 455 - DOO

SOUTHEASTERN:
• 375 (between Gillingham/Otford/Sevenoaks/Swanley and Kent) - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 375 (between Sevenoaks/Shoreham/Swanley and London) - DOO
• 376 - DOO
• 377 (between Gillingham/Otford/Sevenoaks/Swanley and Kent) - Driver Open - Guard Close when working from the saloon or Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch) when working from the cab
• 377 (between Gillingham/Otford/Sevenoaks/Swanley and London) - DOO
• 395 - DOO (but with an 100% guaranteed OBM onboard at all times)
• 465 (between Gillingham/Otford/Sevenoaks/Swanley and Kent) - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 465 (between Gillingham/Otford/Sevenoaks/Swanley and London) - DOO
• 466 (between Gillingham/Otford/Sevenoaks/Swanley and Kent) - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 466 (between Gillingham/Otford/Sevenoaks/Swanley and London) - DOO
• 707 - DOO

STANSTED EXPRESS:
• 745 - DOO

TFL RAIL:
• 345 - DOO

THAMESLINK:
• 700 - DOO

TRANS PENNINE EXPRESS:
• 185 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 397 (Nova2) - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 802 (Nova1) - Driver Open - Guard Close
• MK5 (Nova3) - Driver Open - Guard Close

TRANSLINK NORTHERN IRELAND RAILWAYS:
• 3000 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 4000 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 22000 (when on Enterprise) -
Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)
• 29000 (when on Enterprise) -
Driver Open - Driver Close (flag despatch)
• Enterprise Loco Hauled Sets - Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)

TRANSPORT FOR WALES:
• 150 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 153 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 175 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 197 - ????
• 230 - ????
• 231 - ????
• 398 - ????
• 756 - ????
• 769 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• MK4 - Guard Open - Guard Close

WEST MIDLANDS RAILWAY:
• 139 - Driver/Guard Open - Driver/Guard Close (one person at each end acting as a Driver in one direction and a Guard in the other direction)
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 172 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 196 - ????
• 323 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 350 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 730 - ????

I will update the list if anyone adds any information or can answer the question marks.

I know there are plenty of other threads for discussing DOO and the pros and cons so this thread is only for discussing what routes are DOO and what are not and which door control methods are used by Drivers and Guards on the trains.

Many thanks.

 

[RichardKing]

For this one: 171 (Marshlink) - Driver Open - Guard Close (But am wondering if it is now Guard Open - Guard Close since the four coach sets were introduced on this line? Could anyone confirm?)

At stations on this route that can accommodate 4 car 171s (e.g. Hampden Park), the Driver will open the doors and the Guard will close them. However, at stations with short platforms (e.g. Normans Bay), as the 171s lack SDO, the Guard will open the doors from the saloon of the last coach accommodated in the platform.

 

[ScotRail158725]

I was wondering what the current status is on which trains and lines are DOO and which trains have Guards still. And on the trains that have Guards which door control operation is used. There have been so many strikes and changes and new stock introduced in recent years so it makes it hard to keep track of everything.

On some trains the guard both opens and closes the doors.

On some trains the driver opens the doors and the guard closes the doors.

On some trains the driver opens the doors and closes the doors but the guard tells the driver when to close the doors (ten bell despatch method).

Some trains are entirely DOO.

Some have an OBM or OBS onboard (who have nothing to do with the doors or despatch) but i do not think they are guaranteed so it is basically DOO still. I am not sure what is happening on AGA since the new Stadler Flirt but am presuming they use this method too perhaps? Not sure if this is happening on the new Merseyrail stock too?

I remember hearing a while ago that SWR (who is currently Guard open Guard close on all stock) are changing this soon to make the Driver open and close but i am not sure when. Is there any word yet on how the 701s will operate? Are they going to be DOO?

Likewise with the new 196s and 730s on LNWR and WMR are they going DOO? I think i heard a few years ago something about LM looking to go DOO so just wondering? Is there any word on the new TFW stock also?

Finally i am sure i heard something about the RMT being unhappy about the EMR 360s too? Are these now operating DOO on some journeys?

With all the new trains that have been introduced in the past years and all the RMT disputes it is difficult to keep up with the changes. So if anyone can confirm what stock is DOO or not and if it is not DOO than what door control method it uses that would be great.

By searching on this forum i found this very old thread from about five years ago but it is mostly out of date:

Door Opening and Door Closing procedures on Guard operated trains.

I'm just interested what are the door opening and door closing procedures on different Guard operated trains? There seems to be 3 methods. method a. The Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel. method b. The Driver open the doors and then the Guard closes the doors using the...

www.railforums.co.uk

So i have copied that list and tried to make a new more up to date list below. If anyone can help with any of the question marks that would be much appreciated. As there are quite a few with question marks that i am not sure about.



I will update the list if anyone adds any information or can answer the question marks.

I know there are plenty of other threads for discussing DOO and the pros and cons so this thread is only for discussing what routes are DOO and what are not and which door control methods are used by Drivers and Guards on the trains.

Many thanks.

All Scotrail diesels are guard worked. 318s, 320s 334s and 380s are driver worked and 385s are guard worked

 

[craigybagel]

C2C: Now 100% DOO

GWR: the Turbos have been modified so that the guards can close the doors themselves, with the drivers still opening. However, the old 10 bells method is still used on the their original routes around Reading. Also, at stations that are too short for the train the guard opens a local door only. They still work DOO on certain services.

Guards have been trained up to work the 387s West of Didcot which is still the limit of DOO

Scotrail: the 380s and 385s work DOO on routes covered by the Strathclyde agreement - basically everything they work out of Glasgow Central with the exception of Glasgow - Edinburgh via Shotts or Carstairs. They use guards on those routes and on the services they work that were only electrified recently (ie services out of Glasgow Queen Street and the other services they work out of Edinburgh).

Translink Northern Ireland Railways - their staff don't touch the 22000s or 29000s. I believe they're worked by Irish Rail staff the same as the rest of their services (driver open and close) but I'm open to correction.

Transport for Wales - driver's don't touch the doors on any stock at present. This is likely to change with the arrival of new stock, most likely on the Valleys but possible elsewhere, but no agreement has yet been reached on this matter.

 

[DanNCL]

I was wondering what the current status is on which trains and lines are DOO and which trains have Guards still. And on the trains that have Guards which door control operation is used. There have been so many strikes and changes and new stock introduced in recent years so it makes it hard to keep track of everything.

On some trains the guard both opens and closes the doors.

On some trains the driver opens the doors and the guard closes the doors.

On some trains the driver opens the doors and closes the doors but the guard tells the driver when to close the doors (ten bell despatch method).

Some trains are entirely DOO.

Some have an OBM or OBS onboard (who have nothing to do with the doors or despatch) but i do not think they are guaranteed so it is basically DOO still. I am not sure what is happening on AGA since the new Stadler Flirt but am presuming they use this method too perhaps? Not sure if this is happening on the new Merseyrail stock too?

I remember hearing a while ago that SWR (who is currently Guard open Guard close on all stock) are changing this soon to make the Driver open and close but i am not sure when. Is there any word yet on how the 701s will operate? Are they going to be DOO?

Likewise with the new 196s and 730s on LNWR and WMR are they going DOO? I think i heard a few years ago something about LM looking to go DOO so just wondering? Is there any word on the new TFW stock also?

Finally i am sure i heard something about the RMT being unhappy about the EMR 360s too? Are these now operating DOO on some journeys?

With all the new trains that have been introduced in the past years and all the RMT disputes it is difficult to keep up with the changes. So if anyone can confirm what stock is DOO or not and if it is not DOO than what door control method it uses that would be great.

By searching on this forum i found this very old thread from about five years ago but it is mostly out of date:

Door Opening and Door Closing procedures on Guard operated trains.

I'm just interested what are the door opening and door closing procedures on different Guard operated trains? There seems to be 3 methods. method a. The Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel. method b. The Driver open the doors and then the Guard closes the doors using the...

www.railforums.co.uk

So i have copied that list and tried to make a new more up to date list below. If anyone can help with any of the question marks that would be much appreciated. As there are quite a few with question marks that i am not sure about.



I will update the list if anyone adds any information or can answer the question marks.

I know there are plenty of other threads for discussing DOO and the pros and cons so this thread is only for discussing what routes are DOO and what are not and which door control methods are used by Drivers and Guards on the trains.

Many thanks.

Filled in some of the blanks for you:

Spoiler

AVANTI WEST COAST:
• 221 - Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)
• 390 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 805 - ????
• 807 - ????

C2C:
• 357 - DOO (Except 12 coach 357s which i think require Guards or "Train Captains" as i think they call them? Can anyone confirm if this is still the case? If so i think these all use the ten bell despatch method?)
• 387 - DOO
• 720 - DOO

CALEDONIAN SLEEPER:
• MK5 - Guard Open - Guard Close

CHILTERN RAILWAYS:
• 165 - DOO South Of Banbury / Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch) North Of Banbury
• 168 - DOO South Of Banbury / Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch) North Of Banbury
• 172 - DOO South Of Banbury / Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch) North Of Banbury
• MK3 - Guard Open - Guard Close

CROSS COUNTRY:
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 220 - Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)
• 221 - Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)
• MK3 - Guard Open - Guard Close

EAST COAST TRAINS:
• 803 - likely to be DOO

EAST MIDLANDS RAILWAY:
• 153 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 156 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 180 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 222 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 360 - ????
• 810 - ????

EUROSTAR:
• 373 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 374 - Guard Open - Guard Close

EUROTUNNEL:
• Eurotunnel Stock - ????

GATWICK EXPRESS:
• 387 - DOO

GRAND CENTRAL:
• 180 - Guard Open - Guard Close

GREAT NORTHERN:
• 387 - DOO
• 717 - DOO

GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY:
• 150 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 165 - varies by route - DOO on North Downs/Greenford/Windsor/Henley/Marlow/Bedwyn lines, Guard Open - Guard Close on all other lines
• 166 - varies by route - DOO on North Downs/Greenford/Windsor/Henley/Marlow/Bedwyn lines, Guard Open - Guard Close on all other lines
• 387 - varies by route - Guard Open - Guard Close west of Didcot Parkway, DOO on all other lines
• 769 - ????
• 800 - varies by route - DOO between London and Oxford/Bedwyn, except on services to/from Bristol/Wales/Devon/Cornwall, which are guard operated throughout. Driver Open - Guard Close on all other lines
• 802 - varies by route - DOO between London and Oxford/Bedwyn, except on services to/from Bristol/Wales/Devon/Cornwall, which are guard operated throughout. Driver Open - Guard Close on all other lines
• MK3 (HST new short sets) - Guard Open - Guard Close
• MK3 (Loco Hauled Sleepers) - Guard Open - Guard Close

GREATER ANGLIA:
• 317 - DOO (Or as Guard Open - Guard Close on the few services that still have a Guard)
• 321 - DOO (Or as Guard Open - Guard Close on the few services that still have a Guard)
• 322 - DOO (Or as Guard Open - Guard Close on the few services that still have a Guard)
• 379 - DOO
• 720 - DOO (will be Guard Open - Guard Close on routes that still have a guard when introduced on those routes)
• 745 - ????
• 755 - ????

HEATHROW EXPRESS:
• 387 - DOO

HULL TRAINS:
• 802 - Driver Open - Guard Close

IRISH RAIL:
• Everything - DOO

ISLAND LINE:
• 483 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 484 - ????

LONDON NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY:
• 800 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 801 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• MK4 - Guard Open - Guard Close

LONDON NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY:
• 230 - ????
• 319 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 350 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 730 - ????

LONDON OVERGROUND:
• 378 - DOO
• 710 - DOO

MERSEYRAIL:
• 507 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 508 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 777 - ????

NORTHERN:
• 150 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 153 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 155 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 156 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 195 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 319 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 323 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 331 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 333 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 769 - Guard Open - Guard Close

SCOTRAIL:
• 153 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 156 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 318 - DOO
• 320 - DOO
• 334 - DOO
• 380 - varies by route - DOO on Cathcart/Neilston/Newton/Lanark/Gourock/Wemyss/Largs/Ardrossan/Ayr lines, Guard Open - Guard Close on all other lines
• 385 - varies by route - DOO on Cathcart/Neilston/Newton/Lanark/Gourock/Wemyss lines, Guard Open - Guard Close on all other lines
• MK3 - Guard Open - Guard Close

SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY:
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 159 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 444 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 450 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 455 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 456 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 458 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 701 - ????
• 707 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)

SOUTHERN:
• 171 (Marshlink) - Driver Open - Guard Close (But am wondering if it is now Guard Open - Guard Close since the four coach sets were introduced on this line? Could anyone confirm?)
• 171 (Uckfield) - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 313 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 377 - DOO (Except all the Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes Central and some Redhill to Tonbridge which are the Driver Open - Guard Close method)
• 387 - DOO
• 455 - DOO

SOUTHEASTERN:
• 375 - DOO between Dartford/Shoreham/Swanley and London Terminals / Driver Open - Guard Close between Dartford/Shoreham/Swanley and Kent
• 376 - DOO
• 395 - DOO
• 465 - DOO between Dartford/Shoreham/Swanley and London Terminals / Driver Open - Guard Close between Dartford/Shoreham/Swanley and Kent
• 466 - DOO between Dartford/Shoreham/Swanley and London Terminals / Driver Open - Guard Close between Dartford/Shoreham/Swanley and Kent
• 707 - DOO

STANSTED EXPRESS:
• 379 - DOO
• 745 - DOO

TFL RAIL:
• 345 - DOO

THAMESLINK:
• 700 - DOO

TRANS PENNINE EXPRESS:
• 185 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 397 (Nova2) - ????
• 802 (Nova1) - Driver Open - Guard Close
• MK5 (Nova3) - ????

TRANSLINK NORTHERN IRELAND RAILWAYS:
• 3000 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 4000 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 22000 (when on Enterprise) - ????
• 29000 (when on Enterprise) - ????
• Enterprise Loco Hauled Sets - ????

TRANSPORT FOR WALES:
• 150 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 153 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 175 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 197 - ????
• 230 - ????
• 231 - ????
• 398 - ????
• 756 - ????
• 769 - ????
• MK4 - Guard Open - Guard Close

WEST MIDLANDS RAILWAY:
• 139 - ????
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 172 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 196 - ????
• 323 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 350 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 730 - ????

 

[Nova1]

from what I could see last time I went on it, the WMR Class 139 is technically DOO

They operate with two members of staff - but they weren't swapping ends, both were driving (one up to Stourbridge Town and the other back down to Stourbridge Junction)

Crucially - the one facing the driving direction was closing/opening doors as appropriate.

 

[capitalconnect]

For this one: 171 (Marshlink) - Driver Open - Guard Close (But am wondering if it is now Guard Open - Guard Close since the four coach sets were introduced on this line? Could anyone confirm?)

At stations on this route that can accommodate 4 car 171s (e.g. Hampden Park), the Driver will open the doors and the Guard will close them. However, at stations with short platforms (e.g. Normans Bay), as the 171s lack SDO, the Guard will open the doors from the saloon of the last coach accommodated in the platform.

Thank you. That explains it. I was wondering what happened as Pevensey Bay and Normans Bay and Winchelsea all require the Guard to release the doors on four coach units (i think the Driver can only do SDO for the front one coach only so that works for Three Oaks and Doleham only). I do wonder why they do not just get the Guard to open the doors at all stops like what they do on the London Bridge to Uckfield route. It must get confusing for the Driver on Marshlink to remember at which stations he has to open the doors and which ones he has to let the Guard open them.

 

[scrapy]

Northern-all stock including the 195 and 331s that have ??? In the original post are guard open and close. Drivers don't have any part of door control. This is unlikely to change in the near future due to a number of failures of the ASDO system. Where the train is longer than the platform SDO is now used which has to be guard operated.

 

[capitalconnect]

All Scotrail diesels are guard worked. 318s, 320s 334s and 380s are driver worked and 385s are guard worked

Thank you for the information.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

C2C: Now 100% DOO

GWR: the Turbos have been modified so that the guards can close the doors themselves, with the drivers still opening. However, the old 10 bells method is still used on the their original routes around Reading. Also, at stations that are too short for the train the guard opens a local door only. They still work DOO on certain services.

Guards have been trained up to work the 387s West of Didcot which is still the limit of DOO

Scotrail: the 380s and 385s work DOO on routes covered by the Strathclyde agreement - basically everything they work out of Glasgow Central with the exception of Glasgow - Edinburgh via Shotts or Carstairs. They use guards on those routes and on the services they work that were only electrified recently (ie services out of Glasgow Queen Street and the other services they work out of Edinburgh).

Translink Northern Ireland Railways - their staff don't touch the 22000s or 29000s. I believe they're worked by Irish Rail staff the same as the rest of their services (driver open and close) but I'm open to correction.

Transport for Wales - driver's don't touch the doors on any stock at present. This is likely to change with the arrival of new stock, most likely on the Valleys but possible elsewhere, but no agreement has yet been reached on this matter.

Thank you for the information. I was unaware C2C had now gone fully DOO. That makes sense now that the 165/166 have been modified.

On the GWR 387s i am presuming it is Driver Open and Guard Close just like on the GTR Electrostars? Do you have any idea what method is used on the few 380s and 385s that still have Guards?

So with the 22000 and 29000 when they enter Northern Ireland are they DOO? Or is it an Irish Rail Guard on these trains? When you say the Driver opens and closes is it the ten bell despatch method? Or does the Guard have nothing to do with despatch?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

Filled in some of the blanks for you:

Spoiler

AVANTI WEST COAST:
• 221 - Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)
• 390 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 805 - ????
• 807 - ????

C2C:
• 357 - DOO (Except 12 coach 357s which i think require Guards or "Train Captains" as i think they call them? Can anyone confirm if this is still the case? If so i think these all use the ten bell despatch method?)
• 387 - DOO
• 720 - DOO

CALEDONIAN SLEEPER:
• MK5 - Guard Open - Guard Close

CHILTERN RAILWAYS:
• 165 - DOO South Of Banbury / Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch) North Of Banbury
• 168 - DOO South Of Banbury / Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch) North Of Banbury
• 172 - DOO South Of Banbury / Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch) North Of Banbury
• MK3 - Guard Open - Guard Close

CROSS COUNTRY:
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 220 - Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)
• 221 - Driver Open - Driver Close (ten bell despatch)
• MK3 - Guard Open - Guard Close

EAST COAST TRAINS:
• 803 - likely to be DOO

EAST MIDLANDS RAILWAY:
• 153 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 156 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 180 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 222 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 360 - ????
• 810 - ????

EUROSTAR:
• 373 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 374 - Guard Open - Guard Close

EUROTUNNEL:
• Eurotunnel Stock - ????

GATWICK EXPRESS:
• 387 - DOO

GRAND CENTRAL:
• 180 - Guard Open - Guard Close

GREAT NORTHERN:
• 387 - DOO
• 717 - DOO

GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY:
• 150 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 165 - varies by route - DOO on North Downs/Greenford/Windsor/Henley/Marlow/Bedwyn lines, Guard Open - Guard Close on all other lines
• 166 - varies by route - DOO on North Downs/Greenford/Windsor/Henley/Marlow/Bedwyn lines, Guard Open - Guard Close on all other lines
• 387 - varies by route - Guard Open - Guard Close west of Didcot Parkway, DOO on all other lines
• 769 - ????
• 800 - varies by route - DOO between London and Oxford/Bedwyn, except on services to/from Bristol/Wales/Devon/Cornwall, which are guard operated throughout. Driver Open - Guard Close on all other lines
• 802 - varies by route - DOO between London and Oxford/Bedwyn, except on services to/from Bristol/Wales/Devon/Cornwall, which are guard operated throughout. Driver Open - Guard Close on all other lines
• MK3 (HST new short sets) - Guard Open - Guard Close
• MK3 (Loco Hauled Sleepers) - Guard Open - Guard Close

GREATER ANGLIA:
• 317 - DOO (Or as Guard Open - Guard Close on the few services that still have a Guard)
• 321 - DOO (Or as Guard Open - Guard Close on the few services that still have a Guard)
• 322 - DOO (Or as Guard Open - Guard Close on the few services that still have a Guard)
• 379 - DOO
• 720 - DOO (will be Guard Open - Guard Close on routes that still have a guard when introduced on those routes)
• 745 - ????
• 755 - ????

HEATHROW EXPRESS:
• 387 - DOO

HULL TRAINS:
• 802 - Driver Open - Guard Close

IRISH RAIL:
• Everything - DOO

ISLAND LINE:
• 483 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 484 - ????

LONDON NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY:
• 800 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 801 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• MK4 - Guard Open - Guard Close

LONDON NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY:
• 230 - ????
• 319 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 350 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 730 - ????

LONDON OVERGROUND:
• 378 - DOO
• 710 - DOO

MERSEYRAIL:
• 507 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 508 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 777 - ????

NORTHERN:
• 150 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 153 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 155 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 156 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 195 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 319 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 323 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 331 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 333 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 769 - Guard Open - Guard Close

SCOTRAIL:
• 153 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 156 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 318 - DOO
• 320 - DOO
• 334 - DOO
• 380 - varies by route - DOO on Cathcart/Neilston/Newton/Lanark/Gourock/Wemyss/Largs/Ardrossan/Ayr lines, Guard Open - Guard Close on all other lines
• 385 - varies by route - DOO on Cathcart/Neilston/Newton/Lanark/Gourock/Wemyss lines, Guard Open - Guard Close on all other lines
• MK3 - Guard Open - Guard Close

SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY:
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 159 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 444 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 450 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 455 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 456 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 458 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)
• 701 - ????
• 707 - Guard Open - Guard Close (Due to change soon?)

SOUTHERN:
• 171 (Marshlink) - Driver Open - Guard Close (But am wondering if it is now Guard Open - Guard Close since the four coach sets were introduced on this line? Could anyone confirm?)
• 171 (Uckfield) - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 313 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 377 - DOO (Except all the Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes Central and some Redhill to Tonbridge which are the Driver Open - Guard Close method)
• 387 - DOO
• 455 - DOO

SOUTHEASTERN:
• 375 - DOO between Dartford/Shoreham/Swanley and London Terminals / Driver Open - Guard Close between Dartford/Shoreham/Swanley and Kent
• 376 - DOO
• 395 - DOO
• 465 - DOO between Dartford/Shoreham/Swanley and London Terminals / Driver Open - Guard Close between Dartford/Shoreham/Swanley and Kent
• 466 - DOO between Dartford/Shoreham/Swanley and London Terminals / Driver Open - Guard Close between Dartford/Shoreham/Swanley and Kent
• 707 - DOO

STANSTED EXPRESS:
• 379 - DOO
• 745 - DOO

TFL RAIL:
• 345 - DOO

THAMESLINK:
• 700 - DOO

TRANS PENNINE EXPRESS:
• 185 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 397 (Nova2) - ????
• 802 (Nova1) - Driver Open - Guard Close
• MK5 (Nova3) - ????

TRANSLINK NORTHERN IRELAND RAILWAYS:
• 3000 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 4000 - Driver Open - Guard Close
• 22000 (when on Enterprise) - ????
• 29000 (when on Enterprise) - ????
• Enterprise Loco Hauled Sets - ????

TRANSPORT FOR WALES:
• 150 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 153 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 158 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 175 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 197 - ????
• 230 - ????
• 231 - ????
• 398 - ????
• 756 - ????
• 769 - ????
• MK4 - Guard Open - Guard Close

WEST MIDLANDS RAILWAY:
• 139 - ????
• 170 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 172 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 196 - ????
• 323 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 350 - Guard Open - Guard Close
• 730 - ????

Thank you for that. That is very helpful.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

from what I could see last time I went on it, the WMR Class 139 is technically DOO

They operate with two members of staff - but they weren't swapping ends, both were driving (one up to Stourbridge Town and the other back down to Stourbridge Junction)

Crucially - the one facing the driving direction was closing/opening doors as appropriate.

Thank you. That is interesting to hear there are two drivers with one at each end. I think a similar thing used to happen on the 360s on the T123 to T4 shuttle.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

Northern-all stock including the 195 and 331s that have ??? In the original post are guard open and close. Drivers don't have any part of door control. This is unlikely to change in the near future due to a number of failures of the ASDO system. Where the train is longer than the platform SDO is now used which has to be guard operated.

Thank you for the confirmation. That makes sense. Good to hear that the Guards still open and close the doors on all Northern Rail stock.

 

[craigybagel]

from what I could see last time I went on it, the WMR Class 139 is technically DOO

They operate with two members of staff - but they weren't swapping ends, both were driving (one up to Stourbridge Town and the other back down to Stourbridge Junction)

Crucially - the one facing the driving direction was closing/opening doors as appropriate.

Control of the doors does not necessarily make the train DOO. It's only DOO of it's allowed to run in passenger service with no member of staff other than a driver onboard. AFAIK that isn't the case on the 139s.

Thank you for the information.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==


So with the 22000 and 29000 when they enter Northern Ireland are they DOO? Or is it an Irish Rail Guard on these trains? When you say the Driver opens and closes is it the ten bell despatch method? Or does the Guard have nothing to do with despatch?

Normally on Irish Rail the driver has full control of the doors with no interaction from the guard whatever (and most of the time there isn't one onboard anyway). I'm not sure how exactly things are worked when they cross the border however. Hopefully another user will know as I'm quite curious myself.

 

[capitalconnect]

Control of the doors does not necessarily make the train DOO. It's only DOO of it's allowed to run in passenger service with no member of staff other than a driver onboard. AFAIK that isn't the case on the 139s.


Normally on Irish Rail the driver has full control of the doors with no interaction from the guard whatever (and most of the time there isn't one onboard anyway). I'm not sure how exactly things are worked when they cross the border however. Hopefully another user will know as I'm quite curious myself.

Many thanks. Irish Rail seem to like DOO operation. They even have DOO locomotive hauled trains on the Dublin to Cork route. Yes that would certainly be interesting to know what happens when they are on the enterprise especially as the 22000/29000 (along with 3000/4000 too) have been turning up on enterprise services a lot in recent years. I am presuming the Guard must have some sort of involvement in despatch in NI as none of the NI stations have any mirrors or CCTV monitors that the ROI stations have. As you say hopefully someone else can confirm.

 

[godfreycomplex]

TPE is driver open guard close apart from 185
373 & 374 doors operate to UIC standards I believe, that is to say that doors release on their own below a certain speed. Guards certainly close on 373, not sure on 374 I believe that may be ICE style door operation (driver closes on direction of hand signals/indicators from the guard) but I’m not certain

 

[capitalconnect]

TPE is driver open guard close apart from 185
373 & 374 doors operate to UIC standards I believe, that is to say that doors release on their own below a certain speed. Guards certainly close on 373, not sure on 374 I believe that may be ICE style door operation (driver closes on direction of hand signals/indicators from the guard) but I’m not certain

Thank you for the further information. That is very helpful. So does that mean that the 68s have door controls in the locomotive? If so i presume that is the first time that a locomotive has been fitted with door controls?

So when you say the doors release on their own below a certain speed is this the same as what happens in the Thameslink core? So once the 373 and 374 comes to a stop the doors automatically release without the driver having to press any button?

I have been on the 373s and 374s and do not remember seeing any door panels. So i think you are probably right that on 374s the Guard gives a hand signal and then the driver closes the doors. On the 373s you say the Guard closes so are the panels in the saloon or cab? And do the 373s have a bell or buzzer like our normal domestic trains?

 

[pompeyfan]

I would challenge that GWR 387s and GA 720s have the ability for the guard to release the doors. I strongly suspect that it’s driver open guard close when operated with a guard.

SWR and island line:
All stock is currently guard open guard close, the current intention is the following
Desiro: driver open (DO) / guard close (GC)
Sprinter stock: GO/GC
484: GO/GC
458: unknown, probably DO/GC
701: DO/DC (will not run in service without a guard)

 

[Shwam3]

On Greater Anglia 720/745/755s are driver open & close everywhere (a degraded dispatch mode exists where driver opens - conductor closes, provided a conductor is present)

 

[capitalconnect]

I would challenge that GWR 387s and GA 720s have the ability for the guard to release the doors. I strongly suspect that it’s driver open guard close when operated with a guard.

SWR and island line:
All stock is currently guard open guard close, the current intention is the following
Desiro: driver open (DO) / guard close (GC)
Sprinter stock: GO/GC
484: GO/GC
458: unknown, probably DO/GC
701: DO/DC (will not run in service without a guard)

Thank you for the information. That makes sense. I am pretty sure the GWR 387 trains are Driver Open and Guard Close as the panels do not even have an open button. I do not think any Electrostar trains (except maybe the 376/378/379 trains) have any open buttons on the Guards door panels.

I did not realise the 444/450/458 were changing to Driver Open and Guard Close operation. Is there any word on when this will happen? I presume the trains need modification first?

Interesting to hear about the 701s. So will the Guards have nothing to do with despatch either? If so does that mean that the Non Commercial Guards will basically just sit on the train all day long doing nothing all day?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

On Greater Anglia 720/745/755s are driver open & close everywhere (a degraded dispatch mode exists where driver opens - conductor closes, provided a conductor is present)

Thank you for the information. I was unaware they were entirely Driver Open and Driver Close on these. So what is the degraded despatch method for? Is this in case the cameras are not working? Where are the door panels for this on the 720/745/755 trains as i certainly do not remember seeing any Guards panels? Also in normal operation do the 720/745/755 trains still have a second person onboard but just not dealing with the doors or despatch?

 

[greaterwest]

I did not realise the 444/450/458 were changing to Driver Open and Guard Close operation. Is there any word on when this will happen? I presume the trains need modification first?

As far as I'm aware, the SWR's existing Desiro and Juniper stock won't be moving to DOO, but the 701 will be DOO.

• 165 - varies by route - DOO on North Downs/Greenford/Windsor/Henley/Marlow/Bedwyn lines, Guard Open - Guard Close on all other lines
• 166 - varies by route - DOO on North Downs/Greenford/Windsor/Henley/Marlow/Bedwyn lines, Guard Open - Guard Close on all other lines

I believe GWR use 10 bell dispatch on the North Downs to Redhill, but can operate DOO between Redhill and Gatwick.

 

[craigybagel]

Many thanks. Irish Rail seem to like DOO operation. They even have DOO locomotive hauled trains on the Dublin to Cork route. Yes that would certainly be interesting to know what happens when they are on the enterprise especially as the 22000/29000 (along with 3000/4000 too) have been turning up on enterprise services a lot in recent years. I am presuming the Guard must have some sort of involvement in despatch in NI as none of the NI stations have any mirrors or CCTV monitors that the ROI stations have. As you say hopefully someone else can confirm.

Fwiw, most of the monitors at Irish Rail stations are a relatively new addition. In the past they were quite content to rely on drivers looking back down the train.

Thank you for the further information. That is very helpful. So does that mean that the 68s have door controls in the locomotive? If so i presume that is the first time that a locomotive has been fitted with door controls?

The 67s Chiltern used had door opening buttons retrofitted. I'm not sure if they were ever used however.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Thank you for the further information. That is very helpful. So does that mean that the 68s have door controls in the locomotive? If so i presume that is the first time that a locomotive has been fitted with door controls?

So when you say the doors release on their own below a certain speed is this the same as what happens in the Thameslink core? So once the 373 and 374 comes to a stop the doors automatically release without the driver having to press any button?

I have been on the 373s and 374s and do not remember seeing any door panels. So i think you are probably right that on 374s the Guard gives a hand signal and then the driver closes the doors. On the 373s you say the Guard closes so are the panels in the saloon or cab? And do the 373s have a bell or buzzer like our normal domestic trains?

373s at the very least have a buzzer I believe. They also have panels in the saloon at most doors (although hidden from sight, not unlike those on a Mk4)

Now I delve in the grey matter a little the driver selects a side for the doors to open on and at a certain speed (about 10 km/h I believe) the doors are released on their own, regardless of whether the train is at a platform/the driver has selected the correct side. If the driver doesn’t want the doors to open she doesn’t select a side

There are also door controls in the class 92s but they’ve never been used, the TPE 68s are the only loco door controls ever used in this country.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Thank you for the further information. That is very helpful. So does that mean that the 68s have door controls in the locomotive? If so i presume that is the first time that a locomotive has been fitted with door controls?

Irish Rail / Northern Ireland Railways class 201s have door controls in the cabs.

 

[Horizon22]

800/802 can indeed be DOO to Oxford, but only (extra confusingly) for certain drivers depending on contracts.

 

[XAM2175]

Now I delve in the grey matter a little the driver selects a side for the doors to open on and at a certain speed (about 10 km/h I believe) the doors are released on their own, regardless of whether the train is at a platform/the driver has selected the correct side. If the driver doesn’t want the doors to open she doesn’t select a side

Yes, that's the standard UIC arrangement. Exact policy on its use varies by operator - DB instruct drivers to select the release only when they're confident that the train will stop in a safe position, for example. As a reminder for the driver in their locomotives and multiple units a buzzer or voice announcement sounds in the cab as speed falls below 30 km/h.

 

[capitalconnect]

As far as I'm aware, the SWR's existing Desiro and Juniper stock won't be moving to DOO, but the 701 will be DOO.


I believe GWR use 10 bell dispatch on the North Downs to Redhill, but can operate DOO between Redhill and Gatwick.

Indeed from what pompeyfan said above i believe the 444/450/458 are only changing from Guard Open Guard Close to Driver Open Guard Close so they are not going DOO.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

Fwiw, most of the monitors at Irish Rail stations are a relatively new addition. In the past they were quite content to rely on drivers looking back down the train.

The 67s Chiltern used had door opening buttons retrofitted. I'm not sure if they were ever used however.

Interesting that the Chiltern Railways 67s have had door controls in the cabs. Perhaps they were thinking about DOO South of Banbury on the locomotive hauled trains (just like on the 165/168/172 stock).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

373s at the very least have a buzzer I believe. They also have panels in the saloon at most doors (although hidden from sight, not unlike those on a Mk4)

Now I delve in the grey matter a little the driver selects a side for the doors to open on and at a certain speed (about 10 km/h I believe) the doors are released on their own, regardless of whether the train is at a platform/the driver has selected the correct side. If the driver doesn’t want the doors to open she doesn’t select a side

There are also door controls in the class 92s but they’ve never been used, the TPE 68s are the only loco door controls ever used in this country.

Many thanks. What an strange set up. Surely that means the passenger could open the door before the train has come to a complete stop. It does not sound very safe.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

Irish Rail / Northern Ireland Railways class 201s have door controls in the cabs.

Good point. I think they work DOO from Dublin to Cork so they definitely need them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

800/802 can indeed be DOO to Oxford, but only (extra confusingly) for certain drivers depending on contracts.

How confusing! I would have thought all drivers would be allowed to drive DOO! I am guessing that the drivers that have been there longer have contracts that still require Guards but the newer drivers contracts include DOO? On the services that go between London and Worcester and Hereford does the Guard join and leave the train at Oxford if it is driven by a driver who is allowed to drive DOO? Or do they still stay onboard to and from London?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

Yes, that's the standard UIC arrangement. Exact policy on its use varies by operator - DB instruct drivers to select the release only when they're confident that the train will stop in a safe position, for example. As a reminder for the driver in their locomotives and multiple units a buzzer or voice announcement sounds in the cab as speed falls below 30 km/h.

It certainly seems a strange way of doing things. I would have thought the standard UK method of just pressing the release button once the train has stopped would be better and simpler.

 

[Ashley Hill]

GWR: the Turbos have been modified so that the guards can close the doors themselves, with the drivers still opening. However, the old 10 bells method is still used on the their original routes around Reading. Also, at stations that are too short for the train the guard opens a local door only. They still work DOO on certain services.

10 bell dispatch certainly no longer used on Reading-Basingstoke line although it's still green flag/RA dispatch from Reading bays.

 

[XAM2175]

Many thanks. What an strange set up. Surely that means the passenger could open the door before the train has come to a complete stop. It does not sound very safe.

The older UIC coaching stock that used this system had inwards-opening doors that were fitted with automatic closers that activated above a very low speed - a passenger would have had to deliberately open the door towards themselves while fighting the closer mechanism unless the train was within a few seconds of stopping anyway.

Power-operated doors on new carriages and units can be released by the driver per the UIC system but the doors will not actually open until the train has stopped moving.

It certainly seems a strange way of doing things. I would have thought the standard UK method of just pressing the release button once the train has stopped would be better and simpler.

The opposite, in fact - the UIC system on power-door stock allows passengers to press the door open button in the period between the driver giving the release and the train actually stopping, meaning that the door will open as soon as the train stops unless the driver cancels the release.

By comparison, the UK system makes passengers wait until after the release before responding to the door open button, which is an inefficiency and a potential source of confusion for passengers if the release is not given until some time after the train has stopped (such as when the operator requires the guard to physically step onto the platform before releasing the doors).

 

[Shwam3]

Thank you for the information. I was unaware they were entirely Driver Open and Driver Close on these. So what is the degraded despatch method for? Is this in case the cameras are not working? Where are the door panels for this on the 720/745/755 trains as i certainly do not remember seeing any Guards panels? Also in normal operation do the 720/745/755 trains still have a second person onboard but just not dealing with the doors or despatch?

Degraded as in the in-cab monitors are unusable for whatever reason (fault, sun bleaching, etc). There are door panels throughout the train at some but not all door positions, but primarily the cab controls are used.
I'm not 100% sure where conductors are used on GA, I believe it's all rural, all intercity, & some GE (Harwich/Braintree/Clacton type services). West Anglia is fully DOO.

 

[XC victim]

Speaking personally I always thought the best solution was to have the driver release/open the doors as they are in the best position to know if the train has come to a stop in the correct position at the platform. Also the guard / train manager maybe busy dealing with other issues.
Then have the guard / TM responsible for closing the doors and checking that the train is safe to depart as they are in the best position to do so. Obviously not possible on DOO routes, but I do find it perplexing that there are so many different procedures for door operation.

 

[craigybagel]

Irish Rail / Northern Ireland Railways class 201s have door controls in the cabs.

And the 121s before them had them retro fitted, though they only occasionally crossed the border into the UK.

Both the 121s and later 201s worked DOO services in its truest form with the old MK III based push pull sets - no member of staff on the entire train except for a driver in the loco/driving trailer.

It's probably worth mentioning again that giving the driver complete control of the doors does not by itself make a service DOO. It's only DOO if the service is allowed to run without any other member of traincrew onboard. It's a caveat that has been rarely used in the UK but can be seen on South Easterns high speed services, and with Greater Anglia's new stock.

Interesting that the Chiltern Railways 67s have had door controls in the cabs. Perhaps they were thinking about DOO South of Banbury on the locomotive hauled trains (just like on the 165/168/172 stock).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

I doubt they were ever planning on DOO - I'm not sure if UK standards even allow DOO with a driver in the loco and no staff in the carriages as in Ireland as mentioned above? I'm not sure if the door controls in the 67s even had close buttons anyway - it's been a while since I was last on one to check.

How confusing! I would have thought all drivers would be allowed to drive DOO! I am guessing that the drivers that have been there longer have contracts that still require Guards but the newer drivers contracts include DOO? On the services that go between London and Worcester and Hereford does the Guard join and leave the train at Oxford if it is driven by a driver who is allowed to drive DOO? Or do they still stay onboard to and from London?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==


GWR drivers on the 800s are still on 3 different contracts, depending on which predecessor company they worked for. That might have something to do with it.

10 bell dispatch certainly no longer used on Reading-Basingstoke line although it's still green flag/RA dispatch from Reading bays.

Interesting - I was led to believe they were going to keep 10 bell on the ex FGW Link services and only use guard close on the West services but obviously that's not the case.

 

[capitalconnect]

10 bell dispatch certainly no longer used on Reading-Basingstoke line although it's still green flag/RA dispatch from Reading bays.

Thank you for the information. I thought i had noticed it may have changed. I suppose it makes sense now the 165s and 166s have saloon door panels.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

The older UIC coaching stock that used this system had inwards-opening doors that were fitted with automatic closers that activated above a very low speed - a passenger would have had to deliberately open the door towards themselves while fighting the closer mechanism unless the train was within a few seconds of stopping anyway.

Power-operated doors on new carriages and units can be released by the driver per the UIC system but the doors will not actually open until the train has stopped moving.


The opposite, in fact - the UIC system on power-door stock allows passengers to press the door open button in the period between the driver giving the release and the train actually stopping, meaning that the door will open as soon as the train stops unless the driver cancels the release.

By comparison, the UK system makes passengers wait until after the release before responding to the door open button, which is an inefficiency and a potential source of confusion for passengers if the release is not given until some time after the train has stopped (such as when the operator requires the guard to physically step onto the platform before releasing the doors).

That is a good point. I did not think about that. When travelling around Mainland Europe i have definitely noticed that the doors open instantly compared to the UK where you have to often wait a long time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

Degraded as in the in-cab monitors are unusable for whatever reason (fault, sun bleaching, etc). There are door panels throughout the train at some but not all door positions, but primarily the cab controls are used.
I'm not 100% sure where conductors are used on GA, I believe it's all rural, all intercity, & some GE (Harwich/Braintree/Clacton type services). West Anglia is fully DOO.

That makes sense. Good to hear that the AGA Guards are still able to despatch in those situations. As i know with similar arrangements like the SE OBM and SN OBS they are unable to despatch at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

Speaking personally I always thought the best solution was to have the driver release/open the doors as they are in the best position to know if the train has come to a stop in the correct position at the platform. Also the guard / train manager maybe busy dealing with other issues.
Then have the guard / TM responsible for closing the doors and checking that the train is safe to depart as they are in the best position to do so. Obviously not possible on DOO routes, but I do find it perplexing that there are so many different procedures for door operation.

Personally i have to disagree. My preferred method is Guard Open Guard Close with the driver having zero involvement with the doors. I think it is safer when the driver just opens their local door and then steps out to check the train is correctly platformed before releasing all of the other doors. There have been many cases of drivers accidentally stopping at the wrong point and leaving some carriages hanging off so that is why i like the Guard Open Guard Close method the best.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2021 ==

And the 121s before them had them retro fitted, though they only occasionally crossed the border into the UK.

Both the 121s and later 201s worked DOO services in its truest form with the old MK III based push pull sets - no member of staff on the entire train except for a driver in the loco/driving trailer.

It's probably worth mentioning again that giving the driver complete control of the doors does not by itself make a service DOO. It's only DOO if the service is allowed to run without any other member of traincrew onboard. It's a caveat that has been rarely used in the UK but can be seen on South Easterns high speed services, and with Greater Anglia's new stock.


I doubt they were ever planning on DOO - I'm not sure if UK standards even allow DOO with a driver in the loco and no staff in the carriages as in Ireland as mentioned above? I'm not sure if the door controls in the 67s even had close buttons anyway - it's been a while since I was last on one to check.



Interesting - I was led to believe they were going to keep 10 bell on the ex FGW Link services and only use guard close on the West services but obviously that's not the case.

I have a feeling that ten bell despatch is still used when operating from the cab but Driver Open Guard Close is used when operating from the saloon. So therefore on the North Downs line and Reading to Basingstoke line either method can still be used depending on whether the Guard is working from the cab or the saloon. This situation is the same as the SE 375s and SN 377s which i know are ten bell despatch when working from the cabs but Driver Open Guard Close from the saloon.

 

[pompeyfan]

Thank you for the information. That makes sense. I am pretty sure the GWR 387 trains are Driver Open and Guard Close as the panels do not even have an open button. I do not think any Electrostar trains (except maybe the 376/378/379 trains) have any open buttons on the Guards door panels.

I did not realise the 444/450/458 were changing to Driver Open and Guard Close operation. Is there any word on when this will happen? I presume the trains need modification first?

Interesting to hear about the 701s. So will the Guards have nothing to do with despatch either? If so does that mean that the Non Commercial Guards will basically just sit on the train all day long doing nothing all day?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

It was covered in the SWR DOO strike thread but in effect the guards working 701 will effectively have a similar role as OBS’, at stations they’ll provide passenger assistance, and whilst the train is moving they will provide customer assistance and be provided with a TfL RID (revenue inspection device).

Desiro stock does have door buttons on the drivers desk but they’re not live currently. I’m unsure on 458s