Top Speeds on preserved lines

[Eskimo]

Took a ride on the GCR recently and was surprised at how slow our train was running (black 5 + 4/5 mk1’s) (and then a Railcar DMU) on a line which generally markets itself as a former mainline. 25mph?

Considering the majority of the track alignment is faithful to the original GCR, and the rolling stock similar, why would it be held back to a walking pace?

Are there national preserved line speed limits, that cover all lines with a single max speed, regardless of their rail geometry?

It’s bizarre as I definitely recall travelling at a blistering pace (probably 50/60mph) on a late end of day service here a few years back.

 

[LowLevel]

25 mph is the limit for passenger services on heritage railways in the form they generally operate.

Faster speeds have more onerous requirements for infrastructure and rolling stock.

The GCR is signalled for 60 mph running. It can run up to 75 mph under closure conditions for testing work. But passenger trains are strictly limited to 25 mph (and they are fitted with a monitoring system on that particular railway which reports non compliance to the management team).

 

[Bevan Price]

25 mph is the limit for passenger services on heritage railways in the form they generally operate.

Faster speeds have more onerous requirements for infrastructure and rolling stock.

The GCR is signalled for 60 mph running. It can run up to 75 mph under closure conditions for testing work. But passenger trains are strictly limited to 25 mph (and they are fitted with a monitoring system on that particular railway which reports non compliance to the management team).

I have been on trains that grossly exceeded the 25 mph limit on heritage lines, but not for several years, and I won't be naming them here.

 

[pdeaves]

People generally visit heritage lines 'for the ride'. If the ride is over too quickly, it's not so good an experience for the passenger. So, for the most part, there is no sense in the GCR whisking you from end to end at break neck speeds.

 

[Journeyman]

The main reason for the 25mph limit is a historical one - heritage railways used to operate under Light Railway Orders, which allowed cheaper and simpler signalling and operational arrangements if speeds are kept below 25mph. The legislation has been superseded, but the principles are the same - higher speeds bring higher operating costs, more onerous signalling and safety requirements, higher rolling stock maintenance standards, more complex rules etc etc - as yet, no heritage railway has found the benefits of higher speeds to be worth the costs and additional resources required.

There's no fundamental reason why heritage railways can't operate faster, but it takes a lot of work to do.

 

[Cowley]

The main reason for the 25mph limit is a historical one - heritage railways used to operate under Light Railway Orders, which allowed cheaper and simpler signalling and operational arrangements if speeds are kept below 25mph. The legislation has been superseded, but the principles are the same - higher speeds bring higher operating costs, more onerous signalling and safety requirements, higher rolling stock maintenance standards, more complex rules etc etc - as yet, no heritage railway has found the benefits of higher speeds to be worth the costs and additional resources required.

There's no fundamental reason why heritage railways can't operate faster, but it takes a lot of work to do.

Very well summed up @Journeyman.
I’d also add that although there have been crackdowns on excessive speeds at certain gala events in the past. It just isn’t worth a driver (or indeed a railway) taking any risks these days because it’ll be on YouTube or something similar within a day for everyone to see.
It is still possible for a crew to put on a bit of show in the right places though if they know what they’re doing. Certain lines are better than others on this score though…

 

[Journeyman]

Very well summed up @Journeyman.
I’d also add that although there have been crackdowns on excessive speeds at certain gala events in the past. It just isn’t worth a driver (or indeed a railway) taking any risks these days because it’ll be on YouTube or something similar within a day for everyone to see.
It is still possible for a crew to put on a bit of show in the right places though if they know what they’re doing. Certain lines are better than others on this score though…

Yeah, the railway regulatory bodies now pay far more attention to heritage railways than they ever used to, and random inspections can be carried out by specialists who deal only with heritage railways. This is why some of the traditional things people used to enjoy - going lineside to take pictures, visiting sheds etc - are no longer allowed.

In theory, if someone wanted to run a 100mph heritage railway, they could, as long as they could prove beyond all reasonable doubt that they could do it safely, and had all the appropriate safety measures in place, but no volunteer-run traditional heritage railway is able to do that. It would be far too expensive to do, and would need a lot of mitigations you just don't need at 25mph.

There's a piece of European legislation, still on the statute books in the UK at the moment, that allows exemptions from a range of rules for railways operating at less than 40km/h (as near as dammit 25mph, 24.855mph to be precise!).

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

40 kmh is not walking speed!

I recommend the Watercress Line where engines have to work very hard to breast the 1:70 gradients of "The Alps".

 

[thejuggler]

40 kmh is not walking speed!

I recommend the Watercress Line where engines have to work very hard to breast the 1:70 gradients of "The Alps".

Similar to KWVR. Uphill all the way from Keighley to Oxenhope, engines need to work hard to achieve even 25 mph due to the gradient and closeness of the stations.

On gala days they often run 'express services' which miss some intermediates and they are worth a trip. 25mph on those feels far quicker.

Are NYMR services to Whitby restricted to 25mph on the NR section to Whitby, or is that the limit anyway?

 

[notadriver]

How are trams and such like which use line of sight rules allowed to run at up to 50 mph ?

 

[John Webb]

Are NYMR services to Whitby restricted to 25mph on the NR section to Whitby, or is that the limit anyway?

I understand that it is 50mph once on the NR metals, or any lesser limit imposed on all trains at any particular place.

And of course the NYMR has the 1:49 gradient between Grosmont and Goathland which even at 25mph or less takes some effort!

 

[Cowley]

I understand that it is 50mph once on the NR metals, or any lesser limit imposed on all trains at any particular place.

And of course the NYMR has the 1:49 gradient between Grosmont and Goathland which even at 25mph or less takes some effort!

I thought it was 35mph on NR metals, happy to be proven wrong though?

 

[matt]

45mph to Battersby from Whitby but Grosmont to Whitby I think line speed is less than that.

 

[Journeyman]

I understand that it is 50mph once on the NR metals, or any lesser limit imposed on all trains at any particular place.

And of course the NYMR has the 1:49 gradient between Grosmont and Goathland which even at 25mph or less takes some effort!

The NYMR is also unique in adopting a wide range of Network Rail safety standards across its entire operation, for consistency reasons. I recently wrote a Safety Management System for another heritage railway, and as part of that saw the NYMR's documentation. It's extremely comprehensive.

 

[Titfield]

As @Journeyman said "the railway regulatory bodies now pay far more attention to heritage railways than they ever used to, and random inspections can be carried out by specialists who deal only with heritage railways. This is why some of the traditional things people used to enjoy - going lineside to take pictures, visiting sheds etc - are no longer allowed."

There have been incidents on heritage railways which have led to injury or worse, these can not be ignored by the (safety) regulator.

The safety management systems used by heritage railways have become far more thorough. Part of the sms will be to conduct risk assessments and act on those assessments accordingly. One of the simplest ways to reduce risk is to cease the activity which is why allowing photographers lineside, shed visits etc have ceased. In the analysis of these activities there was little perceived benefit to the HR but considerable risk.

 

[30907]

How are trams and such like which use line of sight rules allowed to run at up to 50 mph ?

For a start, they have tram braking systems and are generally lighter weight - so they can stop in emergency even from 50mph.

 

[tumbles]

The main reason for the 25mph limit is a historical one - heritage railways used to operate under Light Railway Orders, which allowed cheaper and simpler signalling and operational arrangements if speeds are kept below 25mph. The legislation has been superseded, but the principles are the same - higher speeds bring higher operating costs, more onerous signalling and safety requirements, higher rolling stock maintenance standards, more complex rules etc etc - as yet, no heritage railway has found the benefits of higher speeds to be worth the costs and additional resources required.

There's no fundamental reason why heritage railways can't operate faster, but it takes a lot of work to do.

Makes me wonder whether the Swanage link to Wareham will ever be truly viable/feasible if the Class 117/121 are trundling along at 25mph and a ticket is also costing you upward of £20..

 

[Monty]

Makes me wonder whether the Swanage link to Wareham will ever be truly viable/feasible if the Class 117/121 are trundling along at 25mph and a ticket is also costing you upward of £20..

Even when running from Wareham to Swanage it's only an 11 mile trip so only marginly longer than the MHR so I don't think it will be a problem. People will be free to get off at the lines intermediate stations if they want to go on the steam hauled services so you can still get your monies worth. It's all about attracting day trippers from London who have no car who otherwise might be put off by spending 15 quid on a taxi from the station to Norden or rely on the bus service which isn't particularly brilliant either.

 

[tumbles]

Even when running from Wareham to Swanage it's only an 11 mile trip so only marginly longer than the MHR so I don't think it will be a problem. People will be free to get off at the lines intermediate stations if they want to go on the steam hauled services so you can still get your monies worth. It's all about attracting day trippers from London who have no car who otherwise might be put off by spending 15 quid on a taxi from the station to Norden or rely on the bus service which isn't particularly brilliant either.

True and to be honest in summer it'll take you 20 minutes just to get from one side of Corfe to the other. The 351 is generally chaotic for weeks on end in the Summer!

I guess I just found it frustrating this summer that the only 'fare' they offered at £16 regardless of where you boarded. I know they've reverted back to normal fares now but why was it like that for most of August..?

 

[Cowley]

True and to be honest in summer it'll take you 20 minutes just to get from one side of Corfe to the other. The 351 is generally chaotic for weeks on end in the Summer!

I guess I just found it frustrating this summer that the only 'fare' they offered at £16 regardless of where you boarded. I know they've reverted back to normal fares now but why was it like that for most of August..?

I was thinking that the traffic must be fairly crazy around Purbeck this year going on how crazy it is down our way?
I reckon it should be pretty successful once they get going hopefully.

 

[E759]

Even when running from Wareham to Swanage it's only an 11 mile trip so only marginly longer than the MHR so I don't think it will be a problem. People will be free to get off at the lines intermediate stations if they want to go on the steam hauled services so you can still get your monies worth. It's all about attracting day trippers from London who have no car who otherwise might be put off by spending 15 quid on a taxi from the station to Norden or rely on the bus service which isn't particularly brilliant either.

Believe the diesels are currently planned to run Wareham-Corfe Castle only. Same as the SWT Summer Special services.

Bus service (Breezer 40) is fine IMHO. Used it a few weeks ago when staycation madness was at its peak.

 

[Flying Phil]

Mention has been made that shed visits are not allowed these days. In fact, on the GCR, they still offer "Boscastle Shed tours" where a guide does show groups around the shed at Loughborough on certain weekends after a brief safety introduction.

 

[E759]

I was thinking that the traffic must be fairly crazy around Purbeck this year going on how crazy it is down our way?
I reckon it should be pretty successful once they get going hopefully.

I drove down there, first time!, last year (2020) shortly after services resumed. Turned out to be that mad day when 1/4 million people descended on Bournemouth & Poole. A two hour journey turned into a four hour journey. In both directions. Never again!

Was warned off using the Breezer 50 from Bournemouth this year as the chain ferry had ridiculous evening queues. Personally I feel confident the diesels from Wareham will be a resounding success.

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True and to be honest in summer it'll take you 20 minutes just to get from one side of Corfe to the other. The 351 is generally chaotic for weeks on end in the Summer!

I guess I just found it frustrating this summer that the only 'fare' they offered at £16 regardless of where you boarded. I know they've reverted back to normal fares now but why was it like that for most of August..?

12th August I had the Freedom of the Line rover at £21. Great value as it gave almost continuous steam haulage from when I arrived until end of service.

Looking at the existing Swanage Railcard (33% discount, £15) and Annual Season (£69) I don't think it's difficult to predict that tickets and pricing from Wareham will be based on bus users not car owners (who will still use Norden P&R). Will be interesting to see if the car owners will actually want to go the Wareham?

 

[tumbles]

I was thinking that the traffic must be fairly crazy around Purbeck this year going on how crazy it is down our way?
I reckon it should be pretty successful once they get going hopefully.

Spent two weeks down there (first/last week of Aug) based just out of Harmans Cross and it wasn't that bad. The usual pinch points were evident - through Corfe queuing both sides.. back to Norden one end and probably to the Kingston turn off other end. I honestly think half of its caused by the traffic light crossing DCC forced SR to pay for being installed on the corner.

As the campsite ran alongside the railway (great viewing for me..!) it was pleasing to see that most trains were rammed with families. The Class 117 was running as a 3rd hourly service during last weekend when there was a Steam Type fair on at Norden. Went to that one evening though and was pretty disappointed with it.

I hope the Wareham link is a success I just wonder how it'll go over the out of season type months..

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2021 ==

Was warned off using the Breezer 50 from Bournemouth this year as the chain ferry had ridiculous evening queues.

Wasn't too bad the two times we went on it.. obviously coming from Sandbanks side it can jump the queue.

 

[craigybagel]

Makes me wonder whether the Swanage link to Wareham will ever be truly viable/feasible if the Class 117/121 are trundling along at 25mph and a ticket is also costing you upward of £20..

Will the Wareham services be limited to 25mph as well, given they're not running solely on preserved rails?

Personally,I love the RH&DR approach to the rules. Everything is at ⅓ scale, so 25mph feels like 75mph!

 

[option]

Heritage Railway Association are setting up their own Safety & Standards Board, to formulate standards & guidance for the industry.

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I can see that covering 'other services' , as it will be easier for NR if the railway they're dealing with meets a known standard.

 

[zwk500]

Will the Wareham services be limited to 25mph as well, given they're not running solely on preserved rails?

When running on NR rails they will be running at Linespeed, unless there are other restrictions for the Bubble car.

 

[Monty]

When running on NR rails they will be running at Linespeed, unless there are other restrictions for the Bubble car.

The Swanage Railway's safety case is for 25mph only, so that's the speed they will run to even on the mainline. It's barely a mile from the Junction and the mainline service is hourly so there are lots of space to fit in trains from Swanage.

 

[Titfield]

When the Swanage Railway ran the Wareham trial service back in 2017 they carried just over 13,000 passengers over the 60 days. IIRC a loss of C£70K on the operation was announced though this was significantly influenced by the costs of hiring in traction and carriages.

There were 4 services each day ex Swanage 1022 1222 1422 and 1622 ex Wareham 1115 1315 1515 and 1715.

The service ran for 12 weeks 5 days a week (not Monday and Friday).

The two most popular services were the 1115 down and 1622 up with low levels of traffic on the other services.

As has been discussed in other threads the challenges in attracting patronage are:
1) the fare levels especially for families
2) the lower level appeal of diesel compared with steam
3) that in terms of congestion busting it only works if passengers come on the mainline services to Wareham rather than by car as the main congestion on the Isle of Purbeck is the A351 between the Bakers Arms and Wareham.

Swanage Railway talks about the service serving the local community which it can do however If I was wishing to get from Swanage to Bournemouth I would use the Purbeck Breezer Bus 50 as it takes an hour door to door and operates hourly (every 30 mins in the summer season. It is £9 adult return. This is cheaper, quicker and has more choice of times than the likely SR / SWR rail service changing at Wareham.

 

[peteb]

As most heritage lines use passenger carriages without central door locking the ability to open a door at 25mph may be the fundamental reason for the general safety case limiting line speeds, regardless of how good the track and signalling infrastructure is. Also as posted earlier higher line speeds could impact on staff safety, and there seem to be more volunteer staff on the line in these railways than you see on the network.