ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[Deltic1961]

That's pretty much how the oil industry worked in Aberdeen. People poaching for higher salaries. But it's not sustainable in any way.

 

[InOban]

It's the curse of the UK economy. Cheaper for businesses to poach workers, or import them from other countries, than to train them. It is part of the short-termism which is endemic in UK (and US ) capitalism, compared, say, with Germany.

 

[mpthomson]

Bar Pilots, of which there was pre-pandemic an ever growing shortage of, the incentives are really negligible. Plenty of ex cabin-crew and airline staff have been on the railway for years and more have come over due to Covid. It's been quite refreshing really.

Reality is, rail is going to have to tighten it's belt. Wage rises that we've seen in the past two decades will be no more and voluntary redundancies are coming. Strike action won't change that.

There hasn't been a shortage of pilots in recent years, far from it. Even just pre Covid there was a significant glut of them.

There are pilots flying for Ryanair/Easyjet etc on less than a train driver gets, and newly qualified Easyjet First Officers start at just north of £40k, whilst trying to pay back about £100k of flight training costs unless they've come in ready trained.

What may change is that as wide bodied jets are retired and replaced by a more frequent service offered by smaller planes there may be a shortage by the end of the decade, but there certainly isn't now.

 

[43066]

There hasn't been a shortage of pilots in recent years, far from it. Even just pre Covid there was a significant glut of them.

There are pilots flying for Ryanair/Easyjet etc on less than a train driver gets, and newly qualified Easyjet First Officers start at just north of £40k, whilst trying to pay back about £100k of flight training costs unless they've come in ready trained.

There has been a long-standing shortage of type rate, experienced captains, which is not the same thing as a shortage of newly qualified cadets.

Train drivers earn as a basic about what a short hall jet first officer would earn. Turboprop pilots historically have earned less than those who fly jets, and a train driver would be on around what a Flybe captain would have been on.

Airline pilots also earn flight pay and various other allowances which can add £15-20k to their basic. Captains at large airlines will all be on over £100k basic.

Of course there are fully qualified (“frozen ATPL”) commercial Pilots working for very low salaries indeed, not much above minimum wage in some cases (or sometimes less, as many are self employed). There are also a few working as train drivers, two at my depot alone.

 

[notadriver]

Never mind a train drivers salary - some senior train managers/conductors make 40k.

 

[Deltic1961]

Yet customers get higher than inflation fare rises every year. As I said previously there is a point where people say enough is enough and that is pretty close in Scotland if not here already.

Gonna be lots of tears when the gravy train hits the buffers but it's happened in many sectors over the years. The railway system employees seem to think they're exempt somehow....

I just got off a 2 car 158 (Inverurie to Montrose) at Aberdeen and there were less than 20 people on it. As I said not sustainable.

 

[Bald Rick]

Cheaper for businesses to poach workers, or import them from other countries, than to train them. It is part of the short-termism which is endemic in UK (and US ) capitalism, compared, say, with Germany.

you might want to watch ‘Auf Wiedersehn Pet’.

 

[Highlandspring]

I just got off a 2 car 158 (Inverurie to Montrose) at Aberdeen and there were less than 20 people on it. As I said not sustainable.

It’s strange because on Sunday you said in this thread:

No-one checked my ticket on Friday because it was a 2 car class 158 from Inverness and it was rammed

So which is it, are the trains dead or heaving?

 

[Deltic1961]

The Inverness one was heaving because it was far too small (should be a 4 car HST) and the local one was completely empty. Seems to me they need to do some work on the diagrams and timetables.

Extremely busy inter City services will put people off travelling (so many people still terrified of Covid) but empty local services won't make money.

 

[notadriver]

Yet customers get higher than inflation fare rises every year. As I said previously there is a point where people say enough is enough and that is pretty close in Scotland if not here already.

Gonna be lots of tears when the gravy train hits the buffers but it's happened in many sectors over the years. The railway system employees seem to think they're exempt somehow....

I just got off a 2 car 158 (Inverurie to Montrose) at Aberdeen and there were less than 20 people on it. As I said not sustainable.

i thought the better filled services paid for the emptier ones. Should that service you mentioned be cut completely ?

 

[Deltic1961]

Well there's no point running them with no customers. 19:57 Aberdeen to Inverurie as we speak just about to leave platform 7N. There are 3 people on the entire train.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

People have basically been told for a year and a half not to get on trains and travel. Personally I don't find it particularly surprising that some services are still quiet.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well there's no point running them with no customers. 19:57 Aberdeen to Inverurie as we speak just about to leave platform 7N. There are 3 people on the entire train.

If you don't run the trains there'll be no prospect of tempting people back.

 

[Deltic1961]

I was supposed to be meeting a couple of friends (aged 48 and 66) next Friday for a beer. Before Covid we met up in a busy pub every 4 to 6 weeks. Now they've both called off because they don't want to "risk covid" by going out for tea despite being double jabbed. This is where we're at folks. Surely the railway is suffernig consequential losses of a similar fashion?

 

[LoogaBarooga]

I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

[XAM2175]

Well there's no point running them with no customers. 19:57 Aberdeen to Inverurie as we speak just about to leave platform 7N. There are 3 people on the entire train.

If they'd cancelled it you'd have been moaning that Scotrail had let you down once again.

I'd additionally note that this is the Scotrail industrial relations thread, rather than one for general Scotrail complaints.

 

[Goldfish62]

I was supposed to be meeting a couple of friends (aged 48 and 66) next Friday for a beer. Before Covid we met up in a busy pub every 4 to 6 weeks. Now they've both called off because they don't want to "risk covid" by going out for tea despite being double jabbed. This is where we're at folks. Surely the railway is suffernig consequential losses of a similar fashion?

Indeed. There's a part of society that appears to want to live their lives risk-free from now on. It's something I'm afraid I can't relate to.

In terms of rail travel, I use the train extensively and quite often it's easy to forget that Covid ever existed. Some trains are as busy as ever, but others are certainly not.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

I was on a bus home the other day, only person on it. They should just get rid of busses imo.

 

[Robertj21a]

I was on a bus home the other day, only person on it. They should just get rid of busses imo.

They are, gradually. Not enough passengers, not enough drivers, not enough profit.

 

[Deltic1961]

They are, gradually. Not enough passengers, not enough drivers, not enough profit.

And the same thing will happen with trains. It's just that those who work on the railways think they are special and it won't happen.

 

[Bald Rick]

And the same thing will happen with trains. It's just that those who work on the railways think they are special and it won't happen.

but it is happening - with Scotland going first! (see the consultation).

 

[LoogaBarooga]

We should maybe just get rid of public transport altogether?

 

[Robertj21a]

We should maybe just get rid of public transport altogether?

I think that, in due course, we could end up with just the major routes - rail and bus.

 

[Deltic1961]

Well any business that ceases to have public support and revenue eventually goes that way.

 

[the sniper]

If it'll make you guys feel better, then maybe it's for the best. Less tears shed here about the livelihoods of others might make it worth it. Let's end the pain, let's end public transport!

 

[Berliner]

And the same thing will happen with trains. It's just that those who work on the railways think they are special and it won't happen.

Well rail is a bit different in all fairness. You can withdraw a bus route quickly and easily. With a train there is a whole network of infrastructure, knowledge, skills and equipment that is unique to the railway, it isn't something that can be taken away and then brought back quickly like a bus could if demand increases again. Look at some of the lines and services reopening nowadays which were closed under Beeching.

It's taken decades to reinstate lines that people once wrote off. We shouldn't be making the same mistake again. It's better to try and attract people back to the railways after a year and a half of low usage (which in a network approaching 200 years old is barely a blip) than to close it down in the way some people here seem to be wishing for.

 

[alangla]

Seems the Unions & Anas Sarwar have been doing a joint protest outside Bute House today

Why are ScotRail workers striking during COP26?

The move is the latest stage in a long-running dispute over pay and conditions and proposed cuts to services.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Robertj21a]

Well rail is a bit different in all fairness. You can withdraw a bus route quickly and easily. With a train there is a whole network of infrastructure, knowledge, skills and equipment that is unique to the railway, it isn't something that can be taken away and then brought back quickly like a bus could if demand increases again. Look at some of the lines and services reopening nowadays which were closed under Beeching.

It's taken decades to reinstate lines that people once wrote off. We shouldn't be making the same mistake again. It's better to try and attract people back to the railways after a year and a half of low usage (which in a network approaching 200 years old is barely a blip) than to close it down in the way some people here seem to be wishing for.

Very true, but there also needs to be a thorough review of what is really needed. If routes are to remain relatively unchanged then - in my view - some economies need to be made. We seem to have an expensive railway to keep, and an expensive railway for passengers to use.

 

[mpthomson]

It's the curse of the UK economy. Cheaper for businesses to poach workers, or import them from other countries, than to train them. It is part of the short-termism which is endemic in UK (and US ) capitalism, compared, say, with Germany.

The same Germany that used to import thousands of Turkish workers as gastarbeiter and who had less rights than German citizens to do jobs that Germans didn't want to do you mean? And whose low paid jobs are almost invariably carried out by eastern Europeans and other immigrants now? German is very similar to the UK/US in that regard.

 

[snookertam]

We should maybe just get rid of public transport altogether?

You’d think that was the desire of some posters on this thread.