ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[ComUtoR]

Rest day working.

Important because its staff giving up their free time to work overtime. This should be remunerated fairly and some believe it should come with some form of financial incentive (additional payment, increased rates etc)

The TOCs are heavily reliant on staff being available for overtime as it's cheaper and allows some form of flexibility.

However, should a company rely on the goodwill of its staff or budget and ensure the correct level of staffing ?

When that goodwill is no longer there. This kind of situation arrises. Chuck in no pay rise and unfair treatment and things escalate further.

 

[baz962]

Just out of curiosity, what does RDW stand for, what is it and why is it so important

Rest day work. When you go in on a day off to work. Many other industries would just say overtime , but in the railway overtime is staying over normal hours and rest day work is on a day off.

 

[Idkwhatmyusern]

Rest day working.

Important because its staff giving up their free time to work overtime. This should be remunerated fairly and some believe it should come with some form of financial incentive (additional payment, increased rates etc)

The TOCs are heavily reliant on staff being available for overtime as it's cheaper and allows some form of flexibility.

However, should a company rely on the goodwill of its staff or budget and ensure the correct level of staffing ?

When that goodwill is no longer there. This kind of situation arrises. Chuck in no pay rise and unfair treatment and things escalate further.

Thanks for clearing that up for me! I assumed it was something to do with overtime with how it was being referred.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I have seen pilots cleaning the aircraft between turn arounds.

Me too. On Southwest Airlines I have seen cabin crew do so as well.

I prefer my solution. Take both sets of negotiators, put them in a room with a jug of water, glasses, some pastries, a pad of paper and some pens then lock the door and no-one is allowed out until there is a written agreement signed by representatives of both sides agreed

With white smoke and a declaration of habemus Papam?

 

[43066]

Rest day work. When you go in on a day off to work. Many other industries would just say overtime , but in the railway overtime is staying over normal hours and rest day work is on a day off.

Rather a lot of it at our place at the moment! The railway runs on tea and overtime…

 

[320320]

I would imagine ScotRail will attempt to have DOO services running on the Argyle line for Exhibition Centre and the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Airdrie

In the event of no agreement being reached, plan b, at this point is 4 TPH in both directions during the day between garscadden and Edinburgh Waverley, changing to 2 TPH in the evening, presumably turning in Yoker yard.

4 TPH in both directions during the day between rutherglen and Patrick, changing to 2 TPH in the evening, presumably turning in the hhand land loop. Having that many trains in and out of the hyndland loop throughout the day will cause chaos, even with such a limited service.

 

[alangla]

Probably just Edinburgh to Dalmuir and maybe Rutherglen to Milngavie or Dalmuir. With the conference taking place on the Argyle line, presumably they’ll need to deploy some staff to keep GLC LL open (never seen any NR staff down there), Argyle Street and Exhibition Centre (it’ll probably be so busy it’ll need the concert crowd control staff). I can see Anderston and Dalmarnock being closed.

In the event of no agreement being reached, plan b, at this point is 4 TPH in both directions during the day between garscadden and Edinburgh Waverley, changing to 2 TPH in the evening, presumably turning in Yoker yard.

4 TPH in both directions during the day between rutherglen and Patrick, changing to 2 TPH in the evening, presumably turning in the hhand land loop. Having that many trains in and out of the hyndland loop throughout the day will cause chaos, even with such a limited service.

I was close!

Surely they'll replace Hyndland loop with running empty to something like Westerton & reversing on the Milngavie branch the way the Maryhill trains used to - I'm sure I've seen something reverse there during disruption within the last couple of weeks. Resourcing 4TPH, plus the Argyle Line, plus the late nights is good going, presumably this is at the expense of the Ayrshire/Inverclyde stuff that's run on Sundays recently.

 

[PaulMc7]

Stagecoach West Scotland's strikes getting called off came at the right time for a lot of people then...

I thought the most trains anywhere would get was 2 an hour to be fair. Surprised with Garscadden still having its normal quota of 4 an hour just through Queen Street instead of Glasgow Central.

 

[320320]

I was close!

Surely they'll replace Hyndland loop with running empty to something like Westerton & reversing on the Milngavie branch the way the Maryhill trains used to - I'm sure I've seen something reverse there during disruption within the last couple of weeks. Resourcing 4TPH, plus the Argyle Line, plus the late nights is good going, presumably this is at the expense of the Ayrshire/Inverclyde stuff that's run on Sundays recently.

Your idea would’ve made more sense rather than terminating at Patrick and Garscadden.

These services will run from 0600-2200 but it doesn’t say whether 2200 is the last departure time or if that’s when it arrives at its destination.

 

[380101]

The ASLEF deal is only for 6 months but yeah I imagine the other unions would be looking for the same percentage.

Aslef also accepted the deal made to RMT, TSSA and Unite. Aslef also have members in non train driving grades within ScotRail and as such sit in on the general grades pay talks.

The accepted drivers deal was obviously entirely separate and was 2.2% pay rise on a 6 month deal.

 

[Bill57p9]

I would imagine ScotRail will attempt to have DOO services running on the Argyle line for Exhibition Centre and the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Airdrie

It really depends on what proportion of station staff are RMT as that could pull the rug on most stations, bar Glasgow Central and Edinburgh Waverley.

 

[ld0595]

If there isn't an agreement before tomorrow, and the strikes run throughout COP26, where do we go from here? Should we be preparing for strikes until at least Abellio hand over the keys next year?

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Aslef also accepted the deal made to RMT, TSSA and Unite. Aslef also have members in non train driving grades within ScotRail and as such sit in on the general grades pay talks.

The accepted drivers deal was obviously entirely separate and was 2.2% pay rise on a 6 month deal.

Ah right ok.

 

[Scotrail314209]

If there isn't an agreement before tomorrow, and the strikes run throughout COP26, where do we go from here? Should we be preparing for strikes until at least Abellio hand over the keys next year?

I’m not hopeful that these will come to an end anytime soon. Stagecoach will be getting my custom much more.

I think a lot of places are lucky that there are alternative routes to get to your nearest city or big town, but really it’s the rural Highland communities that are suffering the most.

Wouldn’t the sunday strikes have a bit of an impact on business to the hotel at Corrour?

 

[PaulMc7]

If there isn't an agreement before tomorrow, and the strikes run throughout COP26, where do we go from here? Should we be preparing for strikes until at least Abellio hand over the keys next year?

At this point I wouldn't rule out strikes going on for months from here and some areas potentially losing their Sunday service.

 

[68000]

If there isn't an agreement before tomorrow, and the strikes run throughout COP26, where do we go from here? Should we be preparing for strikes until at least Abellio hand over the keys next year?

If the leverage of disrupting COP26 does not do the trick then there is no way Abellio will accede to the demands

 

[Falcon1200]

Until everyone gets themselves a magic carpet, the railway is the way to go. The commuters may never return in the same volume as before and future timetables will reflect that. The fact remains that for everyone else, even those Monday to Friday people, the train is the most sensible way of getting around.

From where I live, if you want to to Glasgow City centre, yes; Although even then many use the bus instead, which although taking twice as long, goes close to a lot more people's homes, and is free for pensioners, under-16s, and soon IIRC 16-24 year olds too. If you want to go anywhere else, car is always quicker. For many people in Scotland the railway is completely irrelevant, because if you already have a car anyway, you will use it.

I am deeply concerned that the 'transport chaos' caused by the strike will be nowhere near as devastating as some think (and hope ?), and that the eventual impact on the railway will be deeply negative, which should worry all of us who value it and want it to succeed.

 

[PaulMc7]

From where I live, if you want to to Glasgow City centre, yes; Although even then many use the bus instead, which although taking twice as long, goes close to a lot more people's homes, and is free for pensioners, under-16s, and soon IIRC 16-24 year olds too. If you want to go anywhere else, car is always quicker. For many people in Scotland the railway is completely irrelevant, because if you already have a car anyway, you will use it.

I am deeply concerned that the 'transport chaos' caused by the strike will be nowhere near as devastating as some think (and hope ?), and that the eventual impact on the railway will be deeply negative, which should worry all of us who value it and want it to succeed.

I considered the train over the bus because of the expressway being shut but our buses have only taken 10-15 mins at most and considering that I very rarely only go into the City Centre and back home the bus is always more worth it. With people working from home and the Stagecoach strikes now not going ahead the damage done by strikes on the railway will be so much less severe than first expected.

There's not too many areas with no other options and in most of those areas car use will be higher anyway.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

From where I live, if you want to to Glasgow City centre, yes; Although even then many use the bus instead, which although taking twice as long, goes close to a lot more people's homes, and is free for pensioners, under-16s, and soon IIRC 16-24 year olds too. If you want to go anywhere else, car is always quicker. For many people in Scotland the railway is completely irrelevant, because if you already have a car anyway, you will use it.

I am deeply concerned that the 'transport chaos' caused by the strike will be nowhere near as devastating as some think (and hope ?), and that the eventual impact on the railway will be deeply negative, which should worry all of us who value it and want it to succeed.

I worry you're right about that last part. They'll be able to coble together a service between Edinburgh and Glasgow then to and from the conference. For the next fortnight that's all that really matters.

This entire episode could just serve to strengthen the government's resolve to get rid of conductors once they are in control.

 

[cairntoul]

The other thing to consider is actual the cost of striking - relative to what is being demanded and what is achievable - is (and the following are rough numbers and may not be completely accurate):

1. Basic paid working year = 52 x 5 = 270 days

Assuming paid holiday. And yes I know that staff don't work a 5 day Mon-Fri, this is just to illustrate.

2. 10 day strike => 3.7% loss of days per year.

Plus possible loss of holiday accrual?.

 

[Bald Rick]

With respect ..daft idea.
Both sides would play to the crowd & not dare test out solutions.
I know why nobody reputable on the TU or industry side has ever proposed this....it is because it won’t work.

But a record of the meeting is already taken - it’s just written down. Because that’s how it was always done. However technology has moved on.

Certainly when I did union meetings I had nothing to hide. More than happy to test out ‘solutions’ And would have no qualms about them being seen by anybody affected by them.

Anyway, we’re off topic.

Looks to me that RMT are in a proper hole. Scottish Government have made their position clear, and they seem to be ready for a strike. Clearly they can’t agree to RMTs demands given the agreement with other unions and the precedent it would set.

But I can’t see RMT backing down now as it would ‘lose face’. But they have nowhere to go after COP26.

Hobson’s choice...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

RailNews reports on the strikes and Graeme Dey says the deal on the table is

ScotRail, with the full support of the Scottish Government, has tried a number of times to reach a deal with the RMT leadership – as of yesterday, the offer being made to its members consisted of a 4.7 per cent pay increase over this and next year, a £300 payment for COP26, an additional payment equivalent to three hours salary for booking on for a Rest Day shift for the rest of the year.

To my mind they should have that RDW arrangement as part of standard conditions and TS should have come back with that in a revised offer.

 

[Donhamer]

RailNews reports on the strikes and Graeme Dey says the deal on the table is


To my mind they should have that RDW arrangement as part of standard conditions and TS should have come back with that in a revised offer.

He fails to mention the changes to T’s & C’s that will affect Conductors far more than any other grade and potentially change their role completely.

 

[PaulMc7]

He fails to mention the changes to T’s & C’s that will affect Conductors far more than any other grade and potentially change their role completely.

Roles in different industries generally do change with time but it seems like there's far more resistance to change in the rail industry than anywhere else.

I do find it farcical that Sundays aren't part of the working week though especially in an industry like rail.

 

[Donhamer]

Roles in different industries generally do change with time but it seems like there's far more resistance to change in the rail industry than anywhere else.

I do find it farcical that Sundays aren't part of the working week though especially in an industry like rail.

I more or less agree on both points but why should Conductors agree a deal that is inferior to other grades?

 

[Starmill]

I think if you're on strike you would lose the holiday pay and employer pension contributions associated with the time not worked. You would also lose your 100% attendance record if that's relevant to your contract.

For strikes such as a long twelve day one the Union normally has a support fund which may be able to make an award to members.

 

[PaulMc7]

I more or less agree on both points but why should Conductors agree a deal that is inferior to other grades?

You also need to be realistic in the current climate plus the fact of it taking so long for anything to happen in terms of negotiation limits any power the union has effectively. If you want something so badly you need to show more urgency than the RMT did plus from a Transport Scotland point of view it could potentially cause so much more bother by allowing RMT what they want as other unions will then think there's grounds for taking more.

It might be a case where accepting this deal and pushing for something else post Covid is the only way for the RMT to get to where they want eventually.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think if you're on strike you would lose the holiday pay and employer pension contributions associated with the time not worked. You would also lose your 100% attendance record if that's relevant to your contract.

Yes to both. In respect of pensions, the employer also does not make contributions for the days an employee is on strike as it's classifieds as unauthorised absence.

With a final salary pension scheme that for example is based on the average salary in the last 12 months it obviously has a massively adverse impact for anyone retiring shortly.

 

[InOban]

He fails to mention the changes to T’s & C’s that will affect Conductors far more than any other grade and potentially change their role completely.

Perhaps because it's because it's their roles which Scotrail /Transport Scotland consider are in most need of revisiting? It's difficult to see what you can do with the duties of a driver unless you make the trains driverless.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Yes to both. In respect of pensions, the employer also does not make contributions for the days an employee is on strike as it's classifieds as unauthorised absence.

With a final salary pension scheme that for example is based on the average salary in the last 12 months it obviously has a massively adverse impact for anyone retiring shortly.

I know the RMT has a lot of support but that's gotta be a hard sell to staff working their final year with Scotrail.