ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[GRALISTAIR]

One does have to admire the RMT's brass neck however; As quoted in the BBC News website regarding Scotrail's deadline for reaching agreement today: 'The RMT has described the move as like "having a gun pointed at our head".' What exactly does the RMT think striking for 12 days throughout the biggest international event ever held in Scotland constitutes ?

Wow - seriously? That is brass-necked.

 

[Starmill]

It is a bit of a slog from Largs to Glasgow by the 906. 1h 45 each way. But it is 4bph vs 1tph.

 

[PaulMc7]

Coming from Helensburgh, Craigendoran, Cardross I could imagine it being tricky to get into Glasgow too given that the first 1B from Helensburgh isn't til 7:01 and affected by the road closures so likely to barely make it in for those that start at 9am plus on a Saturday even if the first bus is on time you'd not make it in for 9am.

I'd like to hope employers were considerate of that though and going by people I know some have been in different areas when it comes to making it easier for their staff during COP26.

That's part of why I think the disruption might not be as bad as the union want it to be.

 

[ComUtoR]

Which is another reason to dismiss all who have been so antagonistic here, and start again with a fresh workforce.

How is this implemented ?

 

[Christmas]

How is this implemented ?

Some people on here are positively orgasmic about the prospect of ScotRail sacking RMT members en masse. Some have tried and failed to find jobs with ScotRail and Network Rail as they have stated. Some want to hire staff on inferior contracts and on far less money. I think we should ignore these fantasies and the people behind them, as I have noticed that some railway staff contributors already seem to be doing.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Some people on here are positively orgasmic about the prospect of ScotRail sacking RMT members en masse. Some have tried and failed to find jobs with ScotRail and Network Rail as they have stated. Some want to hire staff on inferior contracts and on far less money. I think we should ignore these fantasies and the people behind them, as I have noticed that some railway staff contributors already seem to be doing.

Absolutely. No surprise the boy who has been knocked back for numerous railway jobs has a chip on his shoulder about the industry.

 

[PaulMc7]

Some people on here are positively orgasmic about the prospect of ScotRail sacking RMT members en masse. Some have tried and failed to find jobs with ScotRail and Network Rail as they have stated. Some want to hire staff on inferior contracts and on far less money. I think we should ignore these fantasies and the people behind them, as I have noticed that some railway staff contributors already seem to be doing.

I don't agree with sacking unless it's absolutely for bullying other staff or social media posts being nasty to those with different views but that should be a thing in all industries. Being realistic of the current climate is also a huge factor with anything that isn't privately owned or ran and that's where RMT need to think about what could happen in the future if they demand too much like they're doing.

Absolutely. No surprise the boy who has been knocked back for numerous railway jobs has a chip on his shoulder about the industry.

If this is aimed at me then you're definitely wrong about a chip on my shoulder. I just believe in the fact that in times where government money is very tight, the ones that need it most and those closer to poverty should get it first and at the minute that's not rail staff.

 

[Berliner]

I don't agree with sacking unless it's absolutely for bullying other staff or social media posts being nasty to those with different views but that should be a thing in all industries. Being realistic of the current climate is also a huge factor with anything that isn't privately owned or ran and that's where RMT need to think about what could happen in the future if they demand too much like they're doing.


If this is aimed at me then you're definitely wrong about a chip on my shoulder. I just believe in the fact that in times where government money is very tight, the ones that need it most and those closer to poverty should get it first and at the minute that's not rail staff.

Government money isn't tight. They are just choosing to spend it on other things. Governments always find money for things they want, beneficial to the populace or not.

 

[PaulMc7]

Government money isn't tight. They are just choosing to spend it on other things. Governments always find money for things they want, beneficial to the populace or not.

Given how long we've dealt with Covid now it'll be a lot tighter than people think hence a lot of the cuts we've seen elsewhere. By comparisons the rail industry has been well looked after.

 

[6Z09]

Given how long we've dealt with Covid now it'll be a lot tighter than people think hence a lot of the cuts we've seen elsewhere. By comparisons the rail industry has been well looked after.

Government money IS always found , it just a choice of where it goes.

 

[Starmill]

Government money isn't tight. They are just choosing to spend it on other things. Governments always find money for things they want, beneficial to the populace or not.

I agree with that.

However, the government isn't prioritising railways. The solution to that is changing government policy and voting against the Conservatives. Nothing much else is going to change it.

 

[Falcon1200]

It is a bit of a slog from Largs to Glasgow by the 906. 1h 45 each way. But it is 4bph vs 1tph.

I believe the road transport is a specially provided service, rather than the local bus, and I would not be surprised if that is the case, even before the strike, for many other attendees too.

 

[JamesT]

I agree with that.

However, the government isn't prioritising railways. The solution to that is changing government policy and voting against the Conservatives. Nothing much else is going to change it.

Surely given this thread is about Scotrail, that should be voting against the SNP?

 

[PaulMc7]

I agree with that.

However, the government isn't prioritising railways. The solution to that is changing government policy and voting against the Conservatives. Nothing much else is going to change it.

As long as Labour are poor the Tories won't lose an election in England and up here it's kinda the same with the SNP. They're not great but the alternatives are beyond woeful. Anyway less said about politics here the better for us all.

 

[Mag_seven]

Government money IS always found , it just a choice of where it goes.

I'd suggest the railway has already had its fair share of taxpayers money - money that was handed out during the pandemic to allow the railway to run empty trains.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I just believe in the fact that in times where government money is very tight, the ones that need it most and those closer to poverty should get it first and at the minute that's not rail staff.

That is actually imho not a bad point.

 

[PaulMc7]

That is actually imho not a bad point.

You'd be amazed at the abuse I've taken for making the point elsewhere, particularly Twitter

 

[6Z09]

I'd suggest the railway has already had its fair share of taxpayers money - money that was handed out during the pandemic to allow the railway to run empty trains.

Did you travel much during lockdown?
Were all the trains that ran on a drastically reduced timetable, empty?

 

[Horizon22]

Some people on here are positively orgasmic about the prospect of ScotRail sacking RMT members en masse. Some have tried and failed to find jobs with ScotRail and Network Rail as they have stated. Some want to hire staff on inferior contracts and on far less money. I think we should ignore these fantasies and the people behind them, as I have noticed that some railway staff contributors already seem to be doing.

Interestingly though, Southern hired a bunch of new starters fresh from the railway to become OBSs and moved other staff from other grades to fill the role as many guards left refusing to accept the new contracts.

It was a very disruptive 18 months but each strike became progressively less dramatic. With ASLEF on the side with the DOO dispute, it soon became ineffective and the battle was lost. Southern now is rather reliable and it hasn’t had a significant long-term impact on passenger usage (Covid notwithstanding).

There are differences here of course (dispatch operation not changing) but similarities are that only the RMT Conductor grade are in dispute (other unions accepting a deal), it’s related to Conductor working practices, the TOC is training up contingency staff, and a prolonged strike is on the cards.

So the RMT needs to make sure they don’t overplay their hand or in the medium-term even more drastic arrangements are a very real possibility. And ultimately, passengers bear the brunt.

 

[the sniper]

If the RMT seriously believe they are going to get a 4.9% pay increase with no attached changes to working conditions they are living in a alternate reality.

I doubt they do.

Both sides are playing the usual game, admittedly the stakes are just a bit higher in this case.

I'm surprised more people can't see through the 'Conductors on the barrier' condition, but the anti-RMT bias here is strong...

 

[Christmas]

I'd suggest the railway has already had its fair share of taxpayers money - money that was handed out during the pandemic to allow the railway to run empty trains.

You can't hold the operational staff responsible for that. Everyone could see the trains were running around empty and the frequency on most routes was absolute overkill. However ScotRail management and Transport Scotland insisted on running more and more services every few weeks.

 

[6Z09]

I doubt they do.

Both sides are playing the usual game, admittedly the stakes are just a bit higher in this case.

I'm surprised more people can't see through the 'Conductors on the barrier' condition, but the anti-RMT bias here is strong...

The anti Trade Union and anti worker rants on this thread are disgraceful, most peculiar that people who presumably have an interest in the industry have such hatred for the employees within that industry!

 

[Starmill]

Surely given this thread is about Scotrail, that should be voting against the SNP?

It may be within the power of the SNP to prioritise rail funding even more than they already do, but I would argue they already have done. What's needed is an overall increase in government budget, which is very difficult indeed for the Scottish Government to achieve quickly.

Whereas if the government just borrowed the money and spent it this could be agreed tomorrow.

 

[Bald Rick]

most peculiar that people who presumably have an interest in the industry have such hatred for the employees within that industry!

forgive me, but I’ve not seen any ‘hatred’ for the employees.

 

[PaulMc7]

forgive me, but I’ve not seen any ‘hatred’ for the employees.

There's certainly been a lot of aggression from employees towards the rest of us.

 

[Darandio]

There's certainly been a lot of aggression from employees towards the rest of us.

Because anyone that dares have an opposing opinion is bitter and resentful towards the industry or anyone within it due to the fact they have been rejected for roles in the past. Or something like that anyway.

 

[baz962]

Government money isn't tight. They are just choosing to spend it on other things. Governments always find money for things they want, beneficial to the populace or not.

I'm not defending or indeed against the RMT or the staff on this issue , but this post is bang on. Found millions for PPE contracts etc to people that provided none. We all should remember Chris Grayling giving a ferry contract to a company with no ferries . Loads of money for that failed track and trace etc.

 

[PaulMc7]

Because anyone that dares have an opposing opinion is bitter and resentful towards the industry or anyone within it due to the fact they have been rejected for roles in the past. Or something like that anyway.

Spot on sadly. Never known an industry like it to be fair.

 

[alf]

Interestingly though, Southern hired a bunch of new starters fresh from the railway to become OBSs and moved other staff from other grades to fill the role as many guards left refusing to accept the new contracts.

It was a very disruptive 18 months but each strike became progressively less dramatic. With ASLEF on the side with the DOO dispute, it soon became ineffective and the battle was lost. Southern now is rather reliable and it hasn’t had a significant long-term impact on passenger usage (Covid notwithstanding).

There are differences here of course (dispatch operation not changing) but similarities are that only the RMT Conductor grade are in dispute (other unions accepting a deal), it’s related to Conductor working practices, the TOC is training up contingency staff, and a prolonged strike is on the cards.

So the RMT needs to make sure they don’t overplay their hand or in the medium-term even more drastic arrangements are a very real possibility. And ultimately, passengers bear the brunt.

I agree There are strong similarities with the Southern dispute.

I am not sure you are right about many Southern Guards leaving.
There was a long article in the Sussex paper on the anniversary of the Southern Guards giving up the dispute.

It specifically said less than a dozen guards left the railway.
It is not for here, but it would be interesting to know the true number & what might happen to Scotrail guards if they lose the dispute.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

forgive me, but I’ve not seen any ‘hatred’ for the employees.

There's certainly been a lot of aggression from employees towards the rest of us.

Because anyone that dares have an opposing opinion is bitter and resentful towards the industry or anyone within it due to the fact they have been rejected for roles in the past. Or something like that anyway.

My grandfather was a very loyal NUR (National Union of Railways) man. He was killed while doing maintenance on the railways close to Whitehorse Bridge in Bilsborough about 6 miles north of Preston when I was very young. I have always loved railway people and the railways. That said, it always struck me how stuck in the past and slow to modernize the railways have been in general. I remember (1982ish?) Ray Buckton, admittedly an ASLEF man said, the root cause was the railways have been starved of investment. Nobody can really say that is still the case. Yet it appears to me Industrial relations have consistently been bad in my lifetime with railway unions in general. They have been slow to adapt and very resistant to change. Change will come and we can not be Canute and hold back the tide forever. I no longer hear of the traditionally "militant" unions such as NGA/SOGAT82, NUM etc.

I was blown away remembering my spotters days and a freight train. 1 driver, 1 co-driver and one guard in the guards van plus signalers on shift in all the signal boxes. I came to the USA on business well before I lived here and it blew my mind. I huge freight train with 4 locos in multiple with one driver and no guard.

I do realize there are 3 sides to every story. The unions, the management/company and the truth. I just hope and beg that the RMT are willing to compromise.

One way or another CHANGE IS COMING.