Rioting students

[Ferret]

*Extreme satire may have been used in this post

Well, I'd certainly go along with the use of the word extreme. I'd maybe follow it with the word 'bullocks', or something that sounds similar. Comparing the post you've quoted with Hitler?! Come on, get a grip - you must be capable of a far more intelligent response than that.

As for under 16s being on the protest, shouldn't they be in school? Last time I looked, truancy wasn't exactly condoned by the laws of the land.........

 

[scotsman]

Well, I'd certainly go along with the use of the word extreme. I'd maybe follow it with the word 'bullocks', or something that sounds similar. Comparing the post you've quoted with Hitler?! Come on, get a grip - you must be capable of a far more intelligent response than that.

It was the point that anyone can manipulate the facts to say anything they want!

I get your concern though.

 

[yorkie]

If anyone wants violence to win over democracy, if anyone wants to live in an anarchist state, then bugger off and go and live somewhere else.

If anyone thinks violence is the way forward, go to somewhere in Africa where violence is a way of life and where there isn't a proper democracy. You might just change your minds.

We have moved on from violence being a solution. If you want to live in the dark ages, sod off to somewhere that still is. Don't go wanting to bring us down to that level.

 

[Geezertronic]

Let me compare your attitudes with Hitler's for a moment....*

You tell me what the difference is between football hooliganism and the disgraceful scenes in London both today and before? Why should anyone bow down just because idiots want to try and get their own way by means of violence?

There is simply no excuse for it. Otherwise the country would be in anarchy with everyone who doesn't get their own way kicking off. Maybe I'll go and kick off at Morrisons because the price of food is too high?

Hitler had a similar dergoatory attitude towards the disabled

And I take offence to that and suggest you read the whole of Pumbaa's quote which I replied to before making such a childish and ridiculous statement

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If anyone wants violence to win over democracy, if anyone wants to live in an anarchist state, then bugger off and go and live somewhere else.

If anyone thinks violence is the way forward, go to somewhere in Africa where violence is a way of life and where there isn't a proper democracy. You might just change your minds.

We have moved on from violence being a solution. If you want to live in the dark ages, sod off to somewhere that still is. Don't go wanting to bring us down to that level.

I was going to post a longer responce to tghis, buy you yorkie, along with Geezertronic, seem to have summed up my feelings, I'm glad I wasn't in the Met Police today, otherwise there would have been more then horses being used against the protestors. today, the biggest idiots weren't inside the HoC, they were outside. All involved should take a look at themselves, they are a disgrace to humankind.

 

[4SRKT]

I'm quite amazed that almost alone on the this thread I'm with ralphchadkirk and scotsman in not being surprised that people whose future prospects have just been damaged severely are very, very angry indeed. This is not the same as condoning violence BTW. Especially so as ralphchadkirk and I have come to internet blows on a number of subjects in the past, and so are most unlikely allies IMHO

The worst thing about the violence is that it allows the reactionary element of society to skip over what has actually been perpetrated today, by people who were all educated for nowt, on future generations, and what that will mean for the countries. A terrible day for British society, and a major victory for the anti-intellectual element that has been struggling to dominate for so long.

 

[mumrar]

If the violent protesters numbered around 10%, then that is a very high number of people. The Police would not have as many in their ranks as were against them, and after the past few weeks of likewise behaviour, I am not surprised they didn't mess around.

Nobody, not the students, the government, nor really the Police, have come out of this looking particularly good. The main difference between these and student protests of old was the covering of faces. Hiding identities. Anyone doing that went with the sole intention of doing something they didn't want to be brought to book over. If you cannot have the courage of your own convictions, then you don't have much place at a protest really.

What is important now is to ensure that a hell of a lot of universities aren't charging the top fees. And maybe the whole system could be made more efficient, when my wife attended Uni (for a BSc Hons in Animal Biology) she only had to go in for around 12 hours a week. The main problem is, without the financial burden, some see it as a way out of getting a job for a while. They don't attend lectures, aren't held to account over it, and waste a space and a lot of money whilst doing so.

As Yorkie has said, nobody earning under the threshold, whether born with a silver spoon, or a plastic one in their mouth, will have to repay the money until they do earn that much or more. It is a totally different kind of debt, with much lower interest rate and no obligation to actually pay it off. In these times of alleged financial restraint, and budgets being slashed (to help the rich stay rich under the Tories) I don't see what else can be done. The £9k figure has to be for no more than 10% of universities or it becomes a little stupid once more.

And now for us whinging taxpayers to pick up the bill for the extra Policing, disruption and damage caused these past few weeks.

 

[4SRKT]

If anyone wants violence to win over democracy, if anyone wants to live in an anarchist state, then bugger off and go and live somewhere else.

But why should they? This is their country as well. Where would they go? Their vision of how the country should be is just as valid as yours or mine. That's the downside of democracy I would say: people whose opinions differ won't simply 'bugger off'.

If anyone thinks violence is the way forward, go to somewhere in Africa where violence is a way of life and where there isn't a proper democracy. You might just change your minds.

Oh come on. Political violence is hardly a 'way of life' in Britain. Unlike hyperbole on internet forums.

We have moved on from violence being a solution. If you want to live in the dark ages, sod off to somewhere that still is. Don't go wanting to bring us down to that level.

Violence still seems to be a solution to highly dangerous Brazilian tradesmen on tube trains. Or to people selling newspapers in the vicinity of a demonstration.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'm quite amazed that almost alone on the this thread I'm with ralphchadkirk and scotsman in not being surprised that people whose future prospects have just been damaged severely are very, very angry indeed. This is not the same as condoning violence BTW. Especially so as ralphchadkirk and I have come to internet blows on a number of subjects in the past, and so are most unlikely allies IMHO

I am amazed as well. I would have thought that more people would be able to look at the bigger picture where this countries intellectual standing will be damaged greatly for a long time.

 

[90019]

I'm quite amazed that almost alone on the this thread I'm with ralphchadkirk and scotsman in not being surprised that people whose future prospects have just been damaged severely are very, very angry indeed. This is not the same as condoning violence BTW. Especially so as ralphchadkirk and I have come to internet blows on a number of subjects in the past, and so are most unlikely allies IMHO

I think one of the problems is that people like Yorkie have latched onto the fees part of the argument alone, and have ignored the cuts in education in general. That is the main reason why Scottish students are involved.

I'm curious as to why some people think that a violent minority causing problems is reason enough for the police to resort to violence in retaliation? Since when have two wrongs made a right?
Do these people genuinely believe that police officers hiding their identities and attacking protesters is justified and right?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We have moved on from violence being a solution. If you want to live in the dark ages, sod off to somewhere that still is. Don't go wanting to bring us down to that level.

If violence is not a solution, why have the police resorted to it?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

But why should they? This is their country as well. Where would they go? Their vision of how the country should be is just as valid as yours or mine. That's the downside of democracy I would say: people whose opinions differ won't simply 'bugger off'.

I didn't think I would agree with you this much, 4SRKT!

That is the thing that people don't like about democracy - when they are forced to listen to someone else's opposing views. Everyone in a democracy, whether they pay tax or not, whether they go to university or not, is entitled to have a say on how the country is run, which is just as valid as everyone else's.

 

[yorkie]

But why should they? This is their country as well. Where would they go? Their vision of how the country should be is just as valid as yours or mine. That's the downside of democracy I would say: people whose opinions differ won't simply 'bugger off'.

They can bugger off, or they can accept the will of the majority. Either is acceptable. But causing violence because they can't accept they didn't get their way, and because one day when they are (or think they will be) earning £30k + and sticking their noses up at us, they'll have to pay a few quid of that £30k wage back to pay for their expensive education, that is frankly unacceptable.

Oh come on. Political violence is hardly a 'way of life' in Britain. Unlike hyperbole on internet forums.

It's become a way of life now for these rioting students it seems. But my point is that Britain is not about getting your way by violence, and if they think violence should rule over democracy, then they should try out places where that is the case, and they may change their minds.

Violence still seems to be a solution to highly dangerous Brazilian tradesmen on tube trains. Or to people selling newspapers in the vicinity of a demonstration.

I am totally with you on those issues (and I've probably stated my disgust at the outcome of both here before). The police responsible should be jailed, in both cases, no question about it. If they had been, there would be a lot more confidence in the police now. A big mistake, but that was under Labour so we can't blame the current government.

However right now the police are having to deal with people who want our way of life to finish, people who are against democracy, and they need to win that battle comprehensively. We simply can't afford to lose this, and the police are defending us, society, taxpayers, against people who are against democracy and nothing more than pathetic anarchists with no respect for this country, our heritage, or any of us. They need to be dealt with.

 

[Ferret]

That is the thing that people don't like about democracy - when they are forced to listen to someone else's opposing views. Everyone in a democracy, whether they pay tax or not, whether they go to university or not, is entitled to have a say on how the country is run, which is just as valid as everyone else's.

Nobody has any objection to people putting across an opposing point of view, but what Yorkie is saying is that when those holding an opposing point of view resort to violence to get their message across have no place here. I entirely agree.

To those on the protest who did conduct themselves properly - they have my respect.

 

[90019]

It's become a way of life now for students it seems.

I'm sorry, but that is an idiotic sweeping statement to make, and not something I would have expected from you.
Because a small minority of protesters get violent, you cannot tar every student in the UK with the same brush.

 

[4SRKT]

However right now the police are having to deal with people who want our way of life to finish, people who are against democracy, and they need to win that battle comprehensively. We simply can't afford to lose this, and the police are defending us, society, taxpayers, against people who are against democracy and nothing more than pathetic anarchists with no respect for this country, our heritage, or any of us. They need to be dealt with.

I totally disagree that these students want our way of life to finish. Students today AFAICS are only interested in single issue politics, and the communism of the 60s to the 80s is long gone. Give them free tuition and they'll [mostly] go back to being good, politically apathetic little consumers, like everyone else in modern society.

Anyway, I've broken my no 1 rule about not getting involved in political discussions on railway forums. I'm offski now, and mean nobody any ill will.

 

[90019]

To those on the protest who did conduct themselves properly - they have my respect.

Which was the majority.

Clearly this does not agree with some people's point of view, and they feel that the violent minority must mean everyone is the same.

 

[Geezertronic]

IThat is the thing that people don't like about democracy - when they are forced to listen to someone else's opposing views. Everyone in a democracy, whether they pay tax or not, whether they go to university or not, is entitled to have a say on how the country is run, which is just as valid as everyone else's.

By kicking off and trashing the place?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

By kicking off and trashing the place?

The minority

 

[yorkie]

I'm sorry, but that is an idiotic sweeping statement to make, and not something I would have expected from you.
Because a small minority of protesters get violent, you cannot tar every student in the UK with the same brush.

Did you think I meant all students? Why? I have said consistently before that I am referring to the ones who are involved in the violent protests, not all students, I said earlier in this thread that I praise the students who have voiced their opposition to them, and I also said I am an ex-student myself. So why try to claim I said something I clearly never did? I have edited my post to "the rioting students". Yes, this isn't all students, and no-one is claiming it is. But those who are out there now causing havoc, are scum, and deserve whatever they get for their actions.

I totally disagree that these students want our way of life to finish. Students today AFAICS are only interested in single issue politics, and the communism of the 60s to the 80s is long gone. Give them free tuition and they'll [mostly] go back to being good, politically apathetic little consumers, like everyone else in modern society.

And yes they are enemies of society. They are damaging government buildings. They are causing damage to our property. They are totally against the working classes and have demonstrated this by destroying bus stops and attacking buses. They do want to bring our government down and they have posters saying that!

These rioters effectively have free tuition as they won't be getting jobs earning more than £21k I believe. It's an excuse. A pathetic excuse that some more intelligent people who should know better have fallen for.

The minority

A small minority (still several thousand) are violent scumbags. But there are still many thousands who are wasters! Yes they are not a majority, but you, the majority need to speak out against them. You also need to stop them from recruiting people through hyperbole, and using ludicrous excuses that this is against poor people losing out. In reality it's about people who reckon they're gonna get high paid jobs who don't like the idea of paying the money back. Those of us on lower paid jobs are not affected. As for me, under the new system I'd hardly be paying a penny! Under the current system I am paying a fair bit. But it is only right that I pay taxpayers back some of the cost of my education. Why shouldn't I?

I currently have two daughters at University, and they both paint the same picture: there is a firm core of students (say about a third) who are there primarily to study, who get on with the work and meet deadlines; another third who have gone to university because it was expected that they would, and feel that the social life is perhaps slightly more important than the work, so their work is slipping; the final third who went to avoid having to get a job and feel that "Uni" is for three years of drunkenness. This applies to all the subjects, hard or soft.

This hits the nail on the head, and a third is a minority but it's a hell of a lot of people who are, let's face it, wasters and laughing at the working classes as they get drunk on our money.

The majority of students who are not like this need to speak out against them.

I was glad to get out of being a student as I was sick to death of the attitude of that 'final third' of wasters! Yes they were a minority, but they really got me fed up with them. Depending on what uni you go to and what course you do, these wasters may get you fed up with them too.

 

[Geezertronic]

The minority

...always spoil it for the majority - sentence completed.

 

[scotsman]

By kicking off and trashing the place?

Of course, I mean, there wasn't an innocent soul out there...

No, obviously there wasn't any need for the violence. But you need to lose a grip of that as an arguement - Yes people have a right to protest, they have the corresponing responsibility to keep the law - if you're going to debate something, you need more than one point.

 

[mumrar]

I don't share the opinion that this is people watching the destruction of their entire future. Anyone thinking this should look at amateur dramatics as a path forward perhaps. The wolrd is constantly changing, there are many hundreds of concious decisions such as this taken in Parliament and the like the world over. But there are many thousands of people in the UK who have seen their futures destroyed not by their actions, not by actions voted on by politicians, but by corporate greed and recklessness. People who went from having affordable to unaffordable mortgages in the blink of an eye. People who's saved up thousands of pounds deposit to take outa mortgage offer that was suddenly withdrawn by the banks, having toiled for years to make those savings.

How is it any more fair or unfair on them that they are now left with tough decisions and wrecked life plans ahead of them? How many of them have turned up to smash our cities and assault our Police forces up and down the country? These people have to face rises in petrol, gas, electric, food, milk and other staple items that have become essential in modern life.

Life continues for them with adjustments, with economies made, with plans put on hold. All decisions taken to take the facts as they are, knuckle down, and get on with it. It's attitudes like this that served us well through the world wars, through other recessions. How the hell would the modern namby pambies cope with food rationing, and what little you could buy costing an extortionate amount? This went on for years, and through it all people were still polite, respectful and friendly.

We have now become a nation of ignorant, self-centred whingers, with no thought of anyone but ourselves, no care for neighbours etc. Everybody thinks the government should be doing x, y and z for them, but the truth is you should get on with things for yourself.

Don't dismiss this as rose tinted ramblings of an old fool, I'm 32!

 

[Geezertronic]

Of course, I mean, there wasn't an innocent soul out there...

No, obviously there wasn't any need for the violence. But you need to lose a grip of that as an arguement - Yes people have a right to protest, they have the corresponing responsibility to keep the law - if you're going to debate something, you need more than one point.

No we don't need to lose a grip of it as an argument at all. I have purposely not commented on the vote today, reasons why, or the outcome (as I don't have a point of view on it all) so far as to say that the idiots up and down the country who thought that they could get their way by means of violent protests have been proved wrong.

And to comment further, how many of these people have wrecked their own future by getting themselves a criminal record which will affect their future employment prospects?

 

[90019]

Did you think I meant all students? Why?...

...So why try to claim I said something I clearly never did?

Your post implied all students. It is still there in the quote.

 

[LE Greys]

The minority

...always spoil it for the majority - sentence completed.

Precisely

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm quite amazed that almost alone on the this thread I'm with ralphchadkirk and scotsman in not being surprised that people whose future prospects have just been damaged severely are very, very angry indeed. This is not the same as condoning violence BTW. Especially so as ralphchadkirk and I have come to internet blows on a number of subjects in the past, and so are most unlikely allies IMHO

Don't worry - I'm with you as well, and I am too amazed. I don't condone the violence, but I would happily have given them my proverbial permission to go nuts this afternoon. I have to admit, I went straight to the pub with the rest of my department.

What is important now is to ensure that a hell of a lot of universities aren't charging the top fees. And maybe the whole system could be made more efficient, when my wife attended Uni (for a BSc Hons in Animal Biology) she only had to go in for around 12 hours a week. The main problem is, without the financial burden, some see it as a way out of getting a job for a while. They don't attend lectures, aren't held to account over it, and waste a space and a lot of money whilst doing so.

As Yorkie has said, nobody earning under the threshold, whether born with a silver spoon, or a plastic one in their mouth, will have to repay the money until they do earn that much or more. It is a totally different kind of debt, with much lower interest rate and no obligation to actually pay it off. In these times of alleged financial restraint, and budgets being slashed (to help the rich stay rich under the Tories) I don't see what else can be done. The £9k figure has to be for no more than 10% of universities or it becomes a little stupid once more.

And now for us whinging taxpayers to pick up the bill for the extra Policing, disruption and damage caused these past few weeks.

The threshold is a ridiculous olive branch, very few graduates earn less than that. It is still an interest rate though, it is still unfair and regressive. This is my main bone with the fee increase.

I think the police bill is a suitable price to pay for the protest of those who could be bothered to remind the Govt that they are not happy with the fact that future generations are about to have prospects of FE blown to bits.

Making the system more efficient is a difficult one. In old polytechnics etc, thats not going to be an issue. But in Russell Group and higher end Unis, it will be an impossible hurdle to overcome. Research comes first at these Unis, and so 3 year degrees with sub 20 hours contact a week will remain, because as soon as the Unis separate teaching and research staff out, the Uni will lose its appeal, lower numbers and thus will lose money.

I think one of the problems is that people like Yorkie have latched onto the fees part of the argument alone, and have ignored the cuts in education in general. That is the main reason why Scottish students are involved.

I'm curious as to why some people think that a violent minority causing problems is reason enough for the police to resort to violence in retaliation? Since when have two wrongs made a right?
Do these people genuinely believe that police officers hiding their identities and attacking protesters is justified and right?

If violence is not a solution, why have the police resorted to it?

I entirely agree with your post.

And to yorkie et al, democracy isn't utilitarianism. It isn't just about the best fit for the majority, its about catering for all.

People should not be afraid of their Governments - Governments should be afraid of their people.

 

[scotsman]

And to comment further, how many of these people have wrecked their own future by getting themselves a criminal record which will affect their future employment prospects?

Not a huge amount, and only the ones that deserved it anyway

 

[yorkie]

Your post implied all students. It is still there in the quote.

You can't have read my previous posts if you honestly thought I was saying that. In which case, I genuinely apologise for the confusion. (No, I don't expect people to read every post!).

 

[Geezertronic]

Not a huge amount, and only the ones that deserved it anyway

Only the ones that were arrested or those that were captured on camera with their face uncovered you mean?

Anyway I'd love to discuss all night but shopping beckons. If Morrisons don't give me a discount, I'll start throwing fish from the fish counter around to see if that changes their minds

 

[yorkie]

The threshold is a ridiculous olive branch, very few graduates earn less than that. .

In other words, this is an admission that the middle classes are effectively sticking fingers up at the working classes in their outrage that they have to pay a few more quid from their £30,000+ wage packet toward repaying the cost of their education, right?

Basically they're unhappy because they're not going to be as rich as they thought. And they don't have to pay a penny unless they're richer than working class people. If that's not an insult to the working class, then what is?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not a huge amount, and only the ones that deserved it anyway

Out of thousands of people committing criminal acts, sadly very few are going to be facing up to the consequences of their actions. Quite different to the railways where you can be facing a criminal record for the sake of 10p! Not exactly fair, is it?