Publication of Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands

[quantinghome]

What amazes me is how London-centric it all is. Instead of cutting an hour off the time from Leeds to Birmingham, we'll speed up Leeds-London by 20 minutes. Maybe.

 

[Roast Veg]

But it's been demonstrated that you only save 6 minutes by upgrading to 140mph. All the easy junction and station upgrades have been done already. As for capacity increases they are looking to up it to... wait for it... 8 fast trains per hour. Whoop dee doo.

The upgrades will almost certainly focus on reducing the amount of sub-125mph, sub 110mph, and even sub 100mph running wherever possible, as was the end result of the WCRM (though not the original design).

 

[brad465]

You'll get the MML electrification by 2032ish according to that diagram, so there will be some earlier benefits

Not that this is any way a surprise, but much of that, if not all of it, was supposed to be done by now.

 

[miami]

Shapps is still talking about improved times to Scotland, so I guess it's still going ahead.

"The Union Connectivity Review is considering the case for alternatives to the Golborne Spur for faster and higher capacity connections from HS2 services to Scotland"

 

[deltic]

The Golborne Link is still in the document, when you look at the maps

A number of things are on maps but the text is rather different

The Union Connectivity Review is considering the case for alternatives to the Golborne Spur for faster and higher capacity connections from HS2 services to Scotland.

 

[brad465]

What amazes me is how London-centric it all is. Instead of cutting an hour off the time from Leeds to Birmingham, we'll speed up Leeds-London by 20 minutes. Maybe.

If you think about, in the grand scheme of how investment and politics goes these days, the London-centric nature shouldn't be a surprise.

 

[Skymonster]

Well, a blummin’ excellent result!!!!

MML electrified through to Sheffield and HS2 East trains running directly into Nottingham and Derby (instead of the stupid Toton idea) with London less than an hour….

As a Nottingham / Derby local the news couldn’t be better.

 

[Starmill]

I think it actually looks quite sensible, to be honest. More of a Swiss/German NBS* type approach (build the infrastructure where you need it, not as a blanket new thing), and I've always supported that concept for HS2.

My hot take is that the "NPR" approach is pretty solid, using a mixture off-line fast bypasses and on-line upgrades between Liverpool anf Yorkshire to get the best value.

However, the Eastern Leg approach is a cop-out and a cheap, rubbish alternative. No new capacity for freight or stopping heavy rial services in the East Midlands or Yorkshire, years of disruption while routes have to be dug up and rebuilt to accommodate the HS2 services. This is Sunak's approach - and probably his price for funding the Warrington - Huddersfield (ish) section.

 

[quantinghome]

The plan to electrify to Peterborough was already in place by then though, so the first 70 or so miles from Kings Cross had at least been planned. Were there many (any ?) significant track or junction changes for that scheme ?

I suspect the key to this on the ECML will be increasing capacity - so look at the 2 track sections north of Peterborough and any "slow" junctions. There's not a huge amount that can be done south of Huntingdon that hasn't already been achieved - the obvious one would be Welwyn, but I doubt that's on the cards.

Likewise, the MML is already electrified to Market Harborough. Peterborough - Leeds would be a similar length scheme as Market Harborough to Sheffield plus the Nottingham branch.

Yes, it's hard to see where significant additional capacity on the ECML can be won. This isn't a plan, it's airy-fairy aspiration.

 

[Starmill]

But it's been demonstrated that you only save 6 minutes by upgrading to 140mph. All the easy junction and station upgrades have been done already. As for capacity increases they are looking to up it to... wait for it... 8 fast trains per hour. Whoop dee doo.

I imagine they're including the 2 minutes that are already in the bag from moving to 80x timings. Another 3 minutes could come from running non-stop from Doncaster.

 

[quantinghome]

If you think about, in the grand scheme of how investment and politics goes these days, the London-centric nature shouldn't be a surprise.

Well indeed. But the spin being put on this is that HS2 was too London-centric and this new 'plan' is a correction of that. It clearly isn't.

 

[Ianno87]

My hot take is that the "NPR" approach is pretty solid, using a mixture off-line fast bypasses and on-line upgrades between Liverpool anf Yorkshire to get the best value.

Seconded.

 

[ABB125]

The timescales for HS2 appear to have slipped (again!) according to the chart posted earlier...

What a surprise (not)

 

[quantinghome]

I imagine they're including the 2 minutes that are already in the bag from moving to 80x timings. Another 3 minutes could come from running non-stop from Doncaster.

Thus giving a worse service to the intermediate stations.

 

[Gareth]

Well, a blummin’ excellent result!!!!

MML electrified through to Sheffield and HS2 East trains running directly into Nottingham and Derby (instead of the stupid Toton idea) with London less than an hour….

As a Nottingham / Derby local the news couldn’t be better.

The big loser is Leeds. Largely because it had more to lose in the first place.

 

[achmelvic]

There's a lot of use of the word 'could' in the IRP report....

 

[snowball]

That junction between Warrington and Manchester Airport looks interesting ... Presumably it would allow E-W, N-S, E-S and E-N? If all grade-separated then I can't think of any other similar junction on the UK network.

Yes to the first three and also S-W. No E-N unless there's been a very recent change.

Proposals for the trifurcation of the route from the south were incorporated into the HS2 plans last year. It seems there will be a three-level structure.

It may be that the S-W movement will now be dropped. I don't know how times from the south to Liverpool would compare between via Runcorn and via Lymm if there are only limited improvements west of Warrington.

 

[A0wen]

But it's been demonstrated that you only save 6 minutes by upgrading to 140mph. All the easy junction and station upgrades have been done already. As for capacity increases they are looking to up it to... wait for it... 8 fast trains per hour. Whoop dee doo.

You're missing the point - you've looked for increasing the maximum lines speed, not looking at increasing the average overall. The two are quite different.

So to give an example Stevenage - Peterborough is about 50 miles, currently takes about 30 minutes, so averaging 100 mph. You don't need to get to an average of 140mph to improve that, get it to an average of 120mph and you're looking at 6 minutes coming of that stretch alone - so the question is what needs to change to achieve that? I suspect 4 track between Huntingdon and Peterborough is one element, maybe power supply upgrades, maybe some realignments through stations - as seen at Market Harborough on the MML. All of those are relatively quick to achieve, and certainly quicker than building a new line from scratch.

 

[quantinghome]

My hot take is that the "NPR" approach is pretty solid, using a mixture off-line fast bypasses and on-line upgrades between Liverpool anf Yorkshire to get the best value.

Unless they are planning on additional tracks between Dewsbury and Leeds, they have just created the mother of all bottlenecks, which means the new infrastructure can't be used to its full potential.

 

[Mikey C]

Well, a blummin’ excellent result!!!!

MML electrified through to Sheffield and HS2 East trains running directly into Nottingham and Derby (instead of the stupid Toton idea) with London less than an hour….

As a Nottingham / Derby local the news couldn’t be better.

Agreed, this is positive for the East Midlands.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Shapps is still talking about improved times to Scotland, so I guess it's still going ahead.

The detailed analysis suggests ECML improvements will mean Leeds/Edinburgh services will stay there.
That weakens the case for the Golborne link.

 

[TheManOnThe172]

No mention of electrification to Matlock. Am I being too pessimistic in worrying that the plans will make the Matlock service very vulnerable in the medium and longer term - as the lost MML capacity from slower train speeds and stops at Duffield and Belper becomes too high to tolerate?

 

[A0wen]

There's a lot of use of the word 'could' in the IRP report....

Because final decisions *haven't* yet been taken and that's what the planning and delivery change will determine.

Do you actually understand the project planning process ?

 

[43066]

Likewise, the MML is already electrified to Market Harborough.

Not unless the wires have been put up since this morning it isn’t…

 

[quantinghome]

Agreed, this is positive for the East Midlands.

If you want to get to London and Birmingham, yes. If you're looking to travel North, no.

 

[HSTEd]

Agreed, this is positive for the East Midlands.

Well when they realise they've traded convenience for dramatic reductions in frequency, I'm not sure they will still feel that way.

It's Sheffield all over again.

 

[Ianno87]

The big loser is Leeds.

Is it? HS2, yes.

But it gets its NPR services via a mix of new lines and conventional upgrades. So not "London-centric".

 

[achmelvic]

The big loser is Leeds.

Pretty much, the decades of future promises for West Yorkshire continue.

Time for the West Yorks Mayor to actually do something.

 

[Gareth]

Is it? HS2, yes.

But it gets its NPR services via a mix of new lines and conventional upgrades.

Yes, it is.

 

[JonathanH]

Cool. I thought it was an announcement for the whole country until just now

It seems likely that it is the announcement for the whole country (England) as far as anything substantial goes because it makes clear what the capacity in the supply chain is and how the proposed investment compares with current levels. It really is about time they confirmed that other plans elsewhere are on hold.

The official position on Croydon is, from Network Rail's website:

Programme revision

Further development of CARS has been affected by issues such as the significant uncertainty about future passenger behaviour and demand following the COVID-19 pandemic and funding constraints following the Governments 2020 Spending Review.

Given the significant investment required to deliver this scheme, we are now taking time to consider how the pandemic may affect passenger behaviour and travel patterns in the future, and how any such changes should be reflected in infrastructure investments such as this.