Luton-Dunstable

[yorksrob]

There ar emany people where I live who will happily use a train but not a bus. It;s not really surprising, day return to Swansea by bus £5.75, jounrey time 30 mins (fast) 1 hour (slow). Day return to Swansea by train £4.30, jounrey time 17-20 mins.

Also, buses are a very rare species indeed after 1730, whereas the last train is at 0045!

I would expect a guided busway to be run liek a bus service (hopeless) rather than a rails ervice!

Wow, we could do with a rail service like yours. We struggle to get much in the way of transport out of Leeds past 23:00 (Unless you live on the route to Manchester airport of course - no expense is too great to ensure that holiday makers and businessmen don't have to spend a night in a hotel at Manchester).

 

[tbtc]

I still maintain that the number of people who, if they have a car on the driveway, would happily use buses, is lower than for rail. In addition, there is no evidence that buses aid regeneration or create inward investment for an area.

In Britain the public image of buses is that they are slow and uncomfortable and transport for the poor, even in London (whose bus network loses millions of pounds per year).

I agree that people would rather use trains than use trams, and would rather use trams than use buses. That's partly why the fares tend to be lower. However, buses have their place and can have a much quicker improvement than a train/ tram scheme that needs a lot of infratructure/ planning (And are therefore much less responsive to demand).

 

[starrymarkb]

Stagecoach have a pretty good reputation, they are willing to invest in and market services that other big groups would cull as not profitable enough. Yes they have history when it comes to acquisitions, but day to day they are a very professional operation.

Stagecoach want to make more money though growing marginal services, First want to make more by cutting losses

 

[Greenback]

Wow, we could do with a rail service like yours. We struggle to get much in the way of transport out of Leeds past 23:00 (Unless you live on the route to Manchester airport of course - no expense is too great to ensure that holiday makers and businessmen don't have to spend a night in a hotel at Manchester).

The fact that ATW send units to Carmarthen overnight, plus the fact that the 2345 ex Swansea is the train for Fishguard Harbour, makes it a better service than it would otherwise be. Also, thanks to the returning Fishguard train arriving here at 0304, you can either have a late night out in Llanelli, or a very early start for a long journey!

It seems to be a bit of a lottery as to whether a line/station gets a good service at night. But we do have the hopeless bus ervice as a downside!

 

[Mvann]

And the bus services are gonna get worse in the evenings as council grants deminish. The council in my mums area wants to cut the night service and Sunday service grants.

 

[LE Greys]

Stagecoach have a pretty good reputation, they are willing to invest in and market services that other big groups would cull as not profitable enough. Yes they have history when it comes to acquisitions, but day to day they are a very professional operation.

Stagecoach want to make more money though growing marginal services, First want to make more by cutting losses

Have you ever lived in Aberdeen? We have both companies there and Stagecoach have increased their fares by 10p on average over the last five years - which is better than inflation. First operated one of those annoying 'exact fare' systems, and started by charging £1 for most journeys in 2004, then £1:10, then £1:20 and are now up to £1:50. The service is no better, and you often need two or three coins. If you didn't have the right one, the machine just swallowed the difference (they owe me at least a tenner). Not to mention they put old British Leyland rattletraps on the university bus route, and refused to run it to anywhere useful like the station or Union Street. Remember, this is where First Group has its world headquarters. In the end, I used Stagecoach for pretty much anything and walked everywhere.

 

[willow]

Given that Luton is far worse than Bradford, how bad is Dunstable?

One side of dunstable is worst than luton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
dunstable is ghost town,if they get the rail on its feet,it wouldnt be long till the fairs soon rise.people would complain.it is a better option for bus.two buses can pass each other at any time.it would be painfull having to wait for the train to return again at dunstable.having this new system of buses might put dunstable on the map.lets face it milton keynes is killing dunstable busines.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....dunstable is ghost town,if they get the rail on its feet,it wouldnt be long till the fairs soon rise.people would complain.it is a better option for bus.two buses can pass each other at any time.it would be painfull having to wait for the train to return again at dunstable.having this new system of buses might put dunstable on the map.lets face it milton keynes is killing dunstable busines.

Well, after sifting through the b.s. on the Luton Borough Council Website, I'm suprised there is any backing for this scheme.

This map(click here) shows the proposed stopping points for the route as:

Luton (road access to Napier Park (Luton Airport Parkway) and Luton Airport)
Clifton Road (Luton Town FC)
Totland Close (local houses to the north of the route)
White Lion Retail Park (road access to Dunstable town centre)
Portland Ride (road access to Houghton Regis)

The Busway will provide a major boost to the local economy, reduce congestion, ensure journeys are quicker and more reliable, as well as improving the health of locals and enabling them to do their bit for the environment.

By bypassing the major population areas, the big supermarkets, Challney High School and the L&D Hospital along the way.

Below are just some of the many benefits the Busway will bring to the area.

Boost to the local economy

The Busway will be a major economic driver for the region. It will improve transport connections to existing and proposed key employment sites in the south and east of the town such as Luton Airport and the proposed Wigmore employment area on the east side of the airport.

It's pointless linking the employment sites (existing or otherwise) if the majority of people have to change buses to get to them.

The Busway services will pass through or close to many areas of deprivation where car ownership is low, in particular the Dallow and Biscot wards close to Luton town centre together with parts of Lewsey, Tithe Farm in Houghton Regis and Northfield in Dunstable.

And this reduces carbon emissions and traffic conjestion how exactly?

These services will open up opportunities for improved access to jobs and further education/training and therefore is expected to contribute to higher standards of living and quality of life in some of the most deprived areas.

Where exactly, it serves two or three estates at most, maybe they are full of jobless people???

Businesses are already seeing the benefits of the scheme, with development flourishing along the busway. And, as part of an integrated public transport system, travel for work or leisure to areas off the main route will be easier too, assisting regeneration.

But, people have to get to it to use it!

Speed and Reliability

Currently about 43,000 vehicles travel along the A505 and other routes between Houghton Regis, Dunstable and Luton each day. The busway will divert some buses away from the A505, helping to ease congestion. Busway services will cut the average peak hour journey time between Dunstable and Luton in half.

Didn't they some something similar about the relief road that the guided bus route will run alongside?

Currently, the average speed of a conventional bus over the 6 mile journey from Dunstable town centre to Luton train station is less than 13 miles an hour; the journey can take more than ½ hour. The Busway will do the same journey on its dedicated guideway in about ¼ hour, including three scheduled stops.

15 minutes sounds good, but then who will actually use it?

The Busway will bypass the congestion at peak times by travelling along its own guideway and by using "bus only" routes in the town centres.

It will also bypass most people who would use it.

The Busway will also have priority over other traffic on the "on road" sections of the network by using bus lanes and transponders fitted to the vehicles to switch traffic lights to green as they are approached.

Typical journey times:

•Luton Station and Dunstable Town Centre - 11 minutes
•Dunstable and London Luton Airport - 19 minutes
•Luton Town Centre and London Luton Airport - 9 minutes
•Houghton Regis and Luton Station - 25 minutes

Will switching lights to green for buses and removing lanes for regular traffic to use not just clog up the roads even more?

Health and Environmental Impact

Leaving the car at home and catching a Busway service would be a much healthier choice because road traffic is a key generator of pollution, accounting for 15% of the UK's Carbon Dioxide emissions, as well as large amounts of unhealthy particles (mainly in the form of soot).

But most of the users don't have cars remember!

This exposes us all to immense amounts of unwanted pollution which affects our health, particularly that of people prone to asthma, bronchitis and emphysema. Those most at risk are people living or walking beside congested roads and especially those in cars.

So you build a new one!?!?!

For car drivers and passengers, the pollution is greatest since ventilation systems draw polluted air into the car. Catching a bus will cut the overall level of pollution and even a short walk to the stop will be useful exercise you might not otherwise get.

Because that is obviously what all car drivers think of, not the costs that may be involved and the freezing weather??? If I lived along the A505 as I used to (well as near as makes no difference), the bus route would be of no benefit to me from this point of view as it would take as long to get to either town centre as on the existing bus routes.

Integrated journeys with through ticketing

It is intended that the busway services will also participate in First Capital Connect’s plusbus scheme which allows people with tickets to London and other destinations to travel on bus services to the rail station.

Brilliant, so instead of a direct link to London, we can change transport methods along the way.

I might seem like I'm picking holes (I probably am), but I really don't see many, if any, benefits for 'real people' unless you live near the bus stops, it just seems to all be talk with no substance.

When the rail link was looked at there were FOUR stops along the way to Dunstable, with the potential for DIRECT trains to London. Chris Green was alledgedly very interested in running trains to Dunstable again, under NSE.

 

[AlterEgo]

In case anyone's interested....they've cut down the vast majority of the vegetation and lifted nearly all of the track on my last visit (it's local to me) in Spetember 2010. It's appallingly sad. There was a perfectly good railway in place for 95% of the distance of the busway...but they've ripped it up.

I can't wait for the busway to sink like the leaden turd it is.

 

[lancastrian]

Well AlterEgo.

I am fortunate that where I live in Lancashire we, so far have not been saddled by the albratross of a guided busway. From following the "remarkable success" of the Cabrigdeshire Guided Busway, I am sure that the people of Dunstable & Luton are dancing in the streets for this "improvement".

What on earth are our elected leaders thinking off, or are they even thinking. Guided buses are about as effective as a fart in a wind tunnel. This will mean that two perfectly good railway lines, that could have been restored and brought back into useful service, have been destroyed by this short sighted obsesion with this totally unworkable system.

The soon they are both dropped and in the case of Cambridgeshire is ripped up and rail is restored, then they will be part of the natonal network.

 

[jas_sl]

Was this section considered for the East-West rail link or was it ruled out due to capacity constraints on the WCML?

 

[87015]

In case anyone's interested....they've cut down the vast majority of the vegetation and lifted nearly all of the track on my last visit (it's local to me) in Spetember 2010. It's appallingly sad. There was a perfectly good railway in place for 95% of the distance of the busway...but they've ripped it up.

I can't wait for the busway to sink like the leaden turd it is.

You've not mentioned removing the rail bridge spans as they need to be replaced with new ones for the busway...

 

[Nym]

But then like the Misguided Busway in N Cambridge, it won't get removed because it's cost too much and the goverment won't go back on it's decitions, and the on-street running secitions leaving perminantly un-occupied trackbeds will get built on. Leaving no chance for ever having a railway back again.
Why the hell are they looking at a guided busway anyway? It's more expensive than building a tram line! I really don't see the obsession with them, other than being able to shovel all blame for service reliabliltity into the private sector.

 

[AlterEgo]

You've not mentioned removing the rail bridge spans as they need to be replaced with new ones for the busway...

Yes, of course, I forgot....what a total waste of money.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I am fortunate that where I live in Lancashire we, so far have not been saddled by the albratross of a guided busway....

Coming to a former railway line near you :roll: ......

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1335705_leighsalford_busway_is_back_on_track

Was this section considered for the East-West rail link or was it ruled out due to capacity constraints on the WCML?

The recent interest in the east west link was too late for this particular route.

The busway between Luton and Dunstable was one of four schemes for the line devised in 1990! Twenty years on and it still has not dawned on them that the other three schemes were better. They were Thameslink connection, DMU shuttle (think of Stourbridge but with proper trains and you get the sort of idea) and trams.

The trains were dismissed because the people in charge said the railway wasn't interested (wrong), the DMU shuttle was dismissed as too expensive (????) and the tram was dismissed because it would cost too much and cause too much disruption in the town centre (like the busway won't?).

 

[Nym]

Coming to a former railway line near you :roll: ......

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1335705_leighsalford_busway_is_back_on_track

Oh yeah, the former trackbed that with a little bit of dot joining could form a route from Leigh into Victoria via Walken?

And where the bus lane section will take a chunk out of the East Lancs Road, the last road ever that needs less capacity.

Would be better off using the trackbed between the east lancs and a point where it can come off the Atherton Loop to make a nice shiney new S2AP link road and close some small junctions off and grade seperate the East Lancs Road, then have a proper, good old fassioned heavy rail service from Leigh into Victoria!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

As far as I can see, aside from the East Lancs and the M602, the only reason the Wigan/Leigh-Tyldesley-Monton-Eccles-Manchester lines can't be rebuilt is a row of houses in Monton, down Algenon Street.

The real problem with that is capacity at Ordsall lane. Mind you, if they electrified the Leigh/wigan lines aswell (given the Chat moss line is already being done), it'd make more enviromental sense.

 

[asylumxl]

Sense is not somethings those in control of the purse strings have.

 

[lancastrian]

Originally Posted by hairyhandedfool View Post
Coming to a former railway line near you ......

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereven..._back_on_track

Hi thanks for that, I had missed it completely, dont often read the MEN. It seems to me that they intend to use the old LNWR lines that were closed for that "most noble of reasons", building the M602, one of Manchesters linear carparks in the rush hour.

Yet again a short sighted government closes a good railway line, well used for the benefit of a road,HA. Well if they do go ahead with this completely CRAP idea, then it will prove that our elected politicians have not lived in the real world for many years. Where the current footpath that uses this old trackbed arrives in Eccles before it reaches the M602, it end in a steepish slope down from the embankment on to the B5231, just before the Monton roandabout (admitiedly this could be cut back for access). At rush hour these roads are very crowded and certainly not suitable for guided buses, but then at this point they would not be guided.

What is the point of rushing people along a guided busway that does not reach its destination when it stops being guided. At this point it is about 3 miles from Pendlebury centre (Salford), but if you take Salford to be where the University is, then you are about 4/5 miles away, hardly helpful. At one time this railway line ran straight from Leigh, Tyldesly, Boothstown, Monton, Eccles into Manchester Exchange, which dispite its name is in Salford. From Monton to Exchange took about 10 minutes, you would be lucky to do that at anytime by bus in under 15/20 minutes.

One other factor that should be taken into consideration is that already the Metrolink trams are already in Eccles, less than a mile from where the old railway formation becomes available in Monton, why not just extend it through to Leigh, via this formation. As an aside at Roe Green, where the junction for the old LNWR line to Bolton used to join the Leigh line, the trackbed is still available though Walkden to Little Hulton, both of which would really benefit with a Metrolink extension to there, it would even be possible to take the trams on the road throught to Bolton from Little Hulton, now that they seem to be blocking the route from Radcliffe Central, which has been considered in the past.

 

[Invincibles]

To be honest I have always thought that Metrolink would be the best solution for a lot of the old lines around Manchester, there are still a few that are mostly extant.

Having tried to get from Leigh into Manchester it is certain that something would be a good idea

I do not have as big an opposition to bus ways as many on here, but they do seem ill advised when they end as far from the centre as the Leigh example. Luton on the other hand does at least end close to the centre of Luton and Dunstable and in that sense seems OK (even if the train might feel like a better solution)

 

[asylumxl]

it would seem OK was it not for the fact it will come off the busway near Dunstable, onto the very road it's trying to avoid the congestion of.

 

[Metroland]

Cambs guided bus is now 181 million for no time savings and minimal modal shift! This is now up to the cost of the 100mph East-West rail between Oxford and Milton Keynes.

http://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/lat...give_us_back_our_45m_council_demands_1_747199

 

[Jester]

First of all, hello everyone - found this thread/forum via TheGoogleMachine™ and its an area that always interested me, as I was born and breed in Dumpstable. Sorry, Dunstable.

Dunstable offers (offered) something very useful in my opinion that was never thought about - and that was cross rail connection from the Thameslink/Midland Main line (at Luton), and the WestCoast Mainline (at Leighton Buzzard)

There used to be a track between the 2 I believe.. But I guess the council really really never wanted to ever use it again - when they built their council offices over the top of it many moons ago. Part (North of the council offices) is now a cycle-route.

Getting to MK is a chore by bus, as is getting to Leighton Buzzard (X31,X66 routes accordingly) - and getting to Luton can easily take an hour of your day on the same 31 route.

If they had opened up the entire line, it would have given Dunstable pupose to exist again..

 

[Skimble19]

Stagecoach have a pretty good reputation, they are willing to invest in and market services that other big groups would cull as not profitable enough. Yes they have history when it comes to acquisitions, but day to day they are a very professional operation.

Stagecoach want to make more money though growing marginal services, First want to make more by cutting losses

You've gotta be kidding me!? I take it you've never seen anything about the mass cull of routes stagecoach have been doing in Bedfordshire over the past 3/4 years?! They've essentially scrapped anything and everything except for most of the town routes around Bedford and the Mars routes (and even they got cut back after a while!). Every few months the fares go up, they're now at ridiculously expensive levels to the point where the only people who use them are OAP's on their bus passes and those who have literally no choice! Their reputation around here is literally dirt.

Mind you, a friend of mine who works for them sums it up perfectly: There's no competition at all which = we get all the old crappy buses that've been cast off from else where and the fares are extortionate because there's no choice but to use them..

 

[hairyhandedfool]

First of all, hello everyone - found this thread/forum via TheGoogleMachine™ and its an area that always interested me, as I was born and breed in Dumpstable. Sorry, Dunstable....

Welcome to the forum.

....Dunstable offers (offered) something very useful in my opinion that was never thought about - and that was cross rail connection from the Thameslink/Midland Main line (at Luton), and the WestCoast Mainline (at Leighton Buzzard)

There used to be a track between the 2 I believe.. But I guess the council really really never wanted to ever use it again - when they built their council offices over the top of it many moons ago. Part (North of the council offices) is now a cycle-route....

It ran from Leighton Buzzard to Welwyn Garden City, between Luton and Harpenden the line followed the Midland Mainline pretty closely, so if you want to know where Luton Hoo station is (the building still stands I believe), it was about 600yards from Chiltern Green station, the building for which is still on the fast line side of the MML. I think Chaul End station would've been close to where the roundabout in the middle of the relief road (Hatters Way?) is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunstable_Branch_Lines

I think the map on the wiki page is slightly wrong, I believe the A505 should cross before Dunstable Town station.

 

[Bedpan]

No, as far as I can see it is exactly thr right place, between the Cement Works Triangle and Dunstable Town Station. Its the A505 bertween Luton and Dunstable town centres; coming from Luton the line follows the line of Hatters Way for its entire length, and then runs over a bridge where the relief road bears to the right at a roundfabout and brecomes Skimpot Lane (behind Tescos by the Halfway House roundabout), and then on to Dunstable Town station which was situated off Great Northern Road, where it bends sharply to the right. After another 100yds or so it then crossed the A505. The overbridges were still in place until they were misguidedly removed a few weeks ago as they were not wide enough for the misguided busway. The continuation of the A505 from Dunstable to Leighton Buzzard was not built until after the line was closed (so is not shown on the Wiki plan) and iirc uses part of the trackbed.

The line goes along the side of my next door neighbour's house. I realise that it would never be reinstated but it would nevertheless make an excellent narrow gauge tourist line between the edge of Harpenden and Luton Airport Parkway - plenty of nice scenery with Luton Hoo on the opposite side of the valley and the River Lea which has beren dammed to form artificial lakes in the grounds of Luton Hoo, and the "real" railway on the opposite side of the trackbed, and also visible from the B653. If I ever won Euro Millions,thats what I'd try to spend part of the money on particularly as there is a lack of reailway preservation sites in the area, apart from at Leighton Buzzard 20 odd miles away.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Ah, okay, made the assumption that Dunstable Town station might actually be nearer the current town centre, silly me.

 

[AlterEgo]

For those who are interested in this piece of history being tarmacked over, here are a few rare pics:

Dunstable North station:

http://www.galaxy.bedfordshire.gov....igitised_resources/0.images/north_station.jpg

Luton Bute Street (literally nextdoor to Luton Midland, now simply Luton):

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/luton_bute_street/luton_bute_street2.jpg


Dunstable Town (Formerly Dunstable Church St):

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=409627759930&set=a.409627569930.181311.114408429930

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=409628904930&set=a.409627569930.181311.114408429930 - the only pictures I've ever seen of this station in service.


I'm really sad the busway is consuming our railway - not from a bleeding-hearted, soft-focus enthusaist's view, but because I really believe heavy rail links would totally revitalise Dunstable and Houghton Regis.

:-/

 

[A0wen]

For those who are interested in this piece of history being tarmacked over, here are a few rare pics:

Dunstable North station:

http://www.galaxy.bedfordshire.gov....igitised_resources/0.images/north_station.jpg

Luton Bute Street (literally nextdoor to Luton Midland, now simply Luton):

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/luton_bute_street/luton_bute_street2.jpg


Dunstable Town (Formerly Dunstable Church St):

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=409627759930&set=a.409627569930.181311.114408429930

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=409628904930&set=a.409627569930.181311.114408429930 - the only pictures I've ever seen of this station in service.


I'm really sad the busway is consuming our railway - not from a bleeding-hearted, soft-focus enthusaist's view, but because I really believe heavy rail links would totally revitalise Dunstable and Houghton Regis.

:-/

I think the Dunstable line has been doomed for a lot longer than many believe. If it had been part of the original Bed-Pan electrification back in the late 70s it would probably have been OK, since the necessary trackwork changes could have been made at Luton as part of the electrification works.

Once electrification was completed the Dunstable branch always looked a bit unlikely to reopen - despite some efforts in the 1980s.

Part of the problem is demand, since both Luton and Leagrave stations are fairly accessible from Dunstable. Add Luton Airport Parkway into the mix and it's more debateable whether Dunstable would be viable.

 

[AlterEgo]

Part of the problem is demand, since both Luton and Leagrave stations are fairly accessible from Dunstable. Add Luton Airport Parkway into the mix and it's more debateable whether Dunstable would be viable.

I kind of agree with you. Nonetheless, Luton council has decided there's demand for a mass transit system from Dunstable to Luton. The problem is, they've decided on a bus. Dunstable, owing to abominable transport connections, is not particularly suitable as a commuter base for people working in London, which is reflected by the demographic of the people living there. It is an exceptionally deprived area (as I am sure you know).

It's good Luton council have decided to implement mass transit, but it should never have been a guided busway. The technology is unproven and buses suffer from an image problem, unlike a railway. Put simply, buses, in this particular context, do not encourage modal shift. It's costing tens of millions of pounds to lay a road with guide rails (WHY does a bus need to be guided?! It's got a damn steering wheel!!), replace bridges and rights of way. The busway will be unsuccessful financially, and a white elephant.

The railway would have been paradoxially cheaper - the rails would still have had to be replaced, but the route was at the correct loading guage for a train. The line had previously proved it's suitability, and although there would have been significant expense to reconnect the line with the MML at Luton (and possibly reinstate Bute St station), my belief is that the line would have recouped more money than a bus and driven regeneration in the Dunstable area.

Nobody in Luton or Dunstable is enthralled by a guided busway. But a reinstated rail link, I am sure, would have captured the imagination of more people and increased ridership. Dunstable is still the largest town in the UK with no railway station.