Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[craigybagel]

Driver AND guard to prep a Mk4 rake? How have TfW talked themselves into that one?

Sure, you need a Guard to operate a Mk4 rake in passenger service (as with any LHCS) but ECS and prep has always been Driver only.

Is there no continuity brake test required?

Correct - someone needs to be in the DVT whilst the driver is in the cab during the brake test. Once that's done, the set can run ECS DOO.

It was the same with the MKIIIs, it's not a new thing at TfW for the MKIVs.

 

[3973EXL]

5Z20 1211 Eastleigh - Crewe https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:09502/2022-02-15/detailed
conveying 12222 12461 12323 10330 11321 82227

 

[47444]

5Z20 1211 Eastleigh - Crewe https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:09502/2022-02-15/detailed
conveying 12222 12461 12323 10330 11321 82227

Is this the first of the former GC sets to be delivered to TfW?

 

[wobman]

Is this the first of the former GC sets to be delivered to TfW?

Does anyone know if they Have had the Mods completed ??

 

[Rhydgaled]

5Z20 1211 Eastleigh - Crewe https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:09502/2022-02-15/detailed
conveying 12222 12461 12323 10330 11321 82227

I quick search on Flickr found this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/18813...NM3aM-2mNKSvH-2mNES7V-2mXpVW7-2n3PhM9-2n3MzVf

Still in Grand Central livery, even the DVT (if I recall correctly the ex-LNER 4-coach sets had the DVTs repainted at Eastleigh), just without Grand Central logos (not sure if those were ever applied). Assuming that this set is now delivered to TfW, will crews need re-training on 5-coach sets or could this set theoretically appear on the existing mark 4 diagrams (I was assuming they still existed, but a quick check of Real Time Trains found all HHD-CDF workings today are/were 2-car except for one 6-car 175!) in place of a 4-coach set?

 

[rich.davies]

Why would they route it via Wrexham, Chester and not go straight to Crewe from Shrewsbury?

 

[wobman]

I quick search on Flickr found this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/18813...NM3aM-2mNKSvH-2mNES7V-2mXpVW7-2n3PhM9-2n3MzVf

Still in Grand Central livery, even the DVT (if I recall correctly the ex-LNER 4-coach sets had the DVTs repainted at Eastleigh), just without Grand Central logos (not sure if those were ever applied). Assuming that this set is now delivered to TfW, will crews need re-training on 5-coach sets or could this set theoretically appear on the existing mark 4 diagrams (I was assuming they still existed, but a quick check of Real Time Trains found all HHD-CDF workings today are/were 2-car except for one 6-car 175!) in place of a 4-coach set?

Does this have the SDO fitted and other mods fitted ? The Mk4s still aren't on the wag service, I was told its due to no trained Holyhead drivers being available. This is a regular thing lately, maybe once RDW resumes more traincrew will be getting trained at the depots that sign the Mk4s. That's a lot of Mk4s training for Holyhead/ Crewe and Cardiff traincrew to look forward to, the staff trained will need retraining / refreshes to show how the SDO system works aswell

 

[berneyarms]

Avoids a reversal presumably

 

[Doveymain158]

Why would they route it via Wrexham, Chester and not go straight to Crewe from Shrewsbury?

direct route to Crewe from Shrewsbury nor cleared for Mk4s

 

[SuperLuke2334]

direct route to Crewe from Shrewsbury nor cleared for Mk4s

I hope it will be soon, they'll have to run in passenger service along there in the coming years!

 

[fgwrich]

I quick search on Flickr found this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/18813...NM3aM-2mNKSvH-2mNES7V-2mXpVW7-2n3PhM9-2n3MzVf

Still in Grand Central livery, even the DVT (if I recall correctly the ex-LNER 4-coach sets had the DVTs repainted at Eastleigh), just without Grand Central logos (not sure if those were ever applied). Assuming that this set is now delivered to TfW, will crews need re-training on 5-coach sets or could this set theoretically appear on the existing mark 4 diagrams (I was assuming they still existed, but a quick check of Real Time Trains found all HHD-CDF workings today are/were 2-car except for one 6-car 175!) in place of a 4-coach set?

Could always find themselves being repainted at Crewe, as ATC are capable of repaints there (as well as at Eastleigh TMD).

 

[SuperLuke2334]

It will definitely be interesting to see what livery they do appear in, should they be repainted.

 

[warwickshire]

I quick search on Flickr found this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/18813...NM3aM-2mNKSvH-2mNES7V-2mXpVW7-2n3PhM9-2n3MzVf

Still in Grand Central livery, even the DVT (if I recall correctly the ex-LNER 4-coach sets had the DVTs repainted at Eastleigh), just without Grand Central logos (not sure if those were ever applied). Assuming that this set is now delivered to TfW, will crews need re-training on 5-coach sets or could this set theoretically appear on the existing mark 4 diagrams (I was assuming they still existed, but a quick check of Real Time Trains found all HHD-CDF workings today are/were 2-car except for one 6-car 175!) in place of a 4-coach set?

Dosent crewe have a paint workshop on site? Perhaps they could repainted and fully rebranded with tfw livery etc on site at crewe?

 

[Caaardiff]

I quick search on Flickr found this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/18813...NM3aM-2mNKSvH-2mNES7V-2mXpVW7-2n3PhM9-2n3MzVf

Still in Grand Central livery, even the DVT (if I recall correctly the ex-LNER 4-coach sets had the DVTs repainted at Eastleigh), just without Grand Central logos (not sure if those were ever applied). Assuming that this set is now delivered to TfW, will crews need re-training on 5-coach sets or could this set theoretically appear on the existing mark 4 diagrams (I was assuming they still existed, but a quick check of Real Time Trains found all HHD-CDF workings today are/were 2-car except for one 6-car 175!) in place of a 4-coach set?

I would expect there to be some level of training/familiarisation with the SDO procedures at least. You'd hope that the majority internal workings would be identical to the current Mk4's in service.

The afternoon (around 1520) Holyhead is now booked 2x 175's

Does this have the SDO fitted and other mods fitted ? The Mk4s still aren't on the wag service, I was told its due to no trained Holyhead drivers being available.

This is a regular thing lately, maybe once RDW resumes more traincrew will be getting trained at the depots that sign the Mk4s. That's a lot of Mk4s training for Holyhead/ Crewe and Cardiff traincrew to look forward to, the staff trained will need retraining / refreshes to show how the SDO system works aswell

These latest ones have SDO fitted and apparently the current 4 cars will have mods fitted eventually as well.
I'd assume that they may utilise the 5 cars on Holyhead workings to get the train crew already trained on the current Mk4's trained up on the 5 car Mk4's. It will also free up the current Mk4's to go in for mods.

The RDW agreement, number of train crew trained on them and issues with the Mk4's themselves has led to them not being out in service much over recent weeks.

It will definitely be interesting to see what livery they do appear in, should they be repainted.

TfW now owns rather than leases these, so you'd think they'd get the full works to the TfW brand and on board offering as it seems they will be around for some time.

Arriva Train Care have been doing the TfW 158 refurbishments for some time and the last 158 is due out in the next few weeks, so it may well be that TfW have contracted them to refurb/paint the Mk'4s too.

 

[craigybagel]

It will definitely be interesting to see what livery they do appear in, should they be repainted.

They'll need some kind of repainting that's for sure - if only for consistency within sets when the existing sets get extended to 5 cars

I would expect there to be some level of training/familiarisation with the SDO procedures at least. You'd hope that the majority internal workings would be identical to the current Mk4's in service.

The afternoon (around 1520) Holyhead is now booked 2x 175's

To be fair, that service is always booked 2 X 175 (albeit with the rear unit usually locked out until Chester owing to platform lengths). Today the second unit got removed at Shrewsbury for some reason.

Lots of 2 X 153 on Cardiff -Holyheads from what I saw today though

These latest ones have SDO fitted and apparently the current 4 cars will have mods fitted eventually as well.
I'd assume that they may utilise the 5 cars on Holyhead workings to get the train crew already trained on the current Mk4's trained up on the 5 car Mk4's. It will also free up the current Mk4's to go in for mods.

Won't be able to run on the existing diagrams as a 5 car until the guards get training on SDO (which few guards at TfW have any previous experience of using). The current diagrams are marginal at best for a 4 car as it is

The RDW agreement, number of train crew trained on them and issues with the Mk4's themselves has led to them not being out in service much over recent weeks.

Indeed, especially at Holyhead with it being much smaller than the other depots that sign 67s. At least RDW is back now which should ease things up a bit - and there's a 67 training course taking place this week as well.

 

[rich.davies]

direct route to Crewe from Shrewsbury nor cleared for Mk4s

Thanks

 

[diffident]

Why would they route it via Wrexham, Chester and not go straight to Crewe from Shrewsbury?

The initial point of the funding from the WAG was to connect Cardiff with principle towns in the north of Wales. Bypassing Wrexham would obviously defeat the object and be politically problematic.

 

[berneyarms]

The initial point of the funding from the WAG was to connect Cardiff with principle towns in the north of Wales. Bypassing Wrexham would obviously defeat the object and be politically problematic.

They were asking about the route a specific train took when being delivered to Crewe from Eastleigh, not in service.

Nothing to do with the WAG service.

In any case these extra sets will be for the Manchester-South Wales route.

 

[diffident]

They were asking about the route a specific train took when being delivered to Crewe from Eastleigh, not in service.

Nothing to do with the WAG service.

In any case these extra sets will be for the Manchester-South Wales route.

Good point, overlooked that!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Good point, overlooked that!

On top of which, the WAG was initially routed via Crewe for a while before being sent via Wrexham, and remained a diversionary route for the Mk3s.
There were daft things like occasionally not being able to reverse at Chester, so went via Crewe to pick up the rest of the diagram at Shrewsbury.
It's a hoot if, as is claimed, Mk4s are not approved via Whitchurch and on to Manchester, as it's TfW's main line.
And it's the Wales & Borders operator.

 

[berneyarms]

On top of which, the WAG was initially routed via Crewe for a while before being sent via Wrexham, and remained a diversionary route for the Mk3s.
There were daft things like occasionally not being able to reverse at Chester, so went via Crewe to pick up the rest of the diagram at Shrewsbury.
It's a hoot if, as is claimed, Mk4s are not approved via Whitchurch and on to Manchester, as it's TfW's main line.
And it's the Wales & Borders operator.

They’ve not been used or needed to be used in service on that route so far so why would they be?

I’m sure that clearance issues will be sorted well before training starts on that route.

The focus now is rightly on Cardiff-Holyhead.

 

[43096]

They’ve not been used or needed to be used in service on that route so far so why would they be?

Because it is a very obvious diversionary route that also gives access to the depot. However, it's not in Wales...

 

[47827]

Because it is a very obvious diversionary route that also gives access to the depot. However, it's not in Wales...

Far too sensible if there's ever issues with the dvt that prevent routing via Wrexham or disruption on the booked route. Cancellation is perfectly acceptable in such scenarios.

 

[craigybagel]

direct route to Crewe from Shrewsbury nor cleared for Mk4s

On top of which, the WAG was initially routed via Crewe for a while before being sent via Wrexham, and remained a diversionary route for the Mk3s.
There were daft things like occasionally not being able to reverse at Chester, so went via Crewe to pick up the rest of the diagram at Shrewsbury.
It's a hoot if, as is claimed, Mk4s are not approved via Whitchurch and on to Manchester, as it's TfW's main line.
And it's the Wales & Borders operator.

Because it is a very obvious diversionary route that also gives access to the depot. However, it's not in Wales...

Far too sensible if there's ever issues with the dvt that prevent routing via Wrexham or disruption on the booked route. Cancellation is perfectly acceptable in such scenarios.

Before we go down the usual conspiracy theories about why TfW wouldn't bother clearing a diversionary route (that's very rarely needed and in any case is only signed in full by one of the 3 depots that work the MKIVs) - has it actually been confirmed that the route isn't cleared?

In any case even if it was available the route would probably not be used for ECS runs. TfW have been at pains to keep the sets running the right way around (loco leading departing Cardiff and Holyhead), and running empty sets between Cardiff and Chester keeps things that way. Running them via Whitchurch leads to them ending up at Crewe the "wrong" way round.

When this happened unavoidably a few weeks ago TfW made the effort to send the afflicted set on a trip from Crewe to Warrington to Chester to Crewe again just to get it turned back the right way.

 

[47827]

Before we go down the usual conspiracy theories about why TfW wouldn't bother clearing a diversionary route (that's very rarely needed and in any case is only signed in full by one of the 3 depots that work the MKIVs) - has it actually been confirmed that the route isn't cleared?

In any case even if it was available the route would probably not be used for ECS runs. TfW have been at pains to keep the sets running the right way around (loco leading departing Cardiff and Holyhead), and running empty sets between Cardiff and Chester keeps things that way. Running them via Whitchurch leads to them ending up at Crewe the "wrong" way round.

When this happened unavoidably a few weeks ago TfW made the effort to send the afflicted set on a trip from Crewe to Warrington to Chester to Crewe again just to get it turned back the right way.

I'm not personally blaming TFW, I'd say its one Network Rail should want fixed well before they are booked that way. Occasionally for emergencies or an unscheduled ECS it's very useful having a second route to Wrexham. I'm sure TFW would agree, forgetting the issue of sets turning the opposite way for such scenarios when it's useful.

 

[craigybagel]

I'm not personally blaming TFW, I'd say its one Network Rail should want fixed well before they are booked that way. Occasionally for emergencies or an unscheduled ECS it's very useful having a second route to Wrexham. I'm sure TFW would agree, forgetting the issue of sets turning the opposite way for such scenarios when it's useful.

Indeed, I'm sure both TfW and NR would like it sorting out - and it's a necessity of course for the planned Manchester services. I just can understand why it's not the highest of priorities right now is all.

Incidentally - I do wonder if the introduction of Manchester services will see the sets permanently rotated. If they stay as they are now we'll end up with 67s with ETH running parked at the concourse end under the shed at Manchester Piccadilly, which might not be terribly popular. The sets are due to be reformed when the extra carriages are introduced anyway (with 1st class moved away from it's awkward position in the middle of the formation).

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Indeed, I'm sure both TfW and NR would like it sorting out - and it's a necessity of course for the planned Manchester services. I just can understand why it's not the highest of priorities right now is all.

Incidentally - I do wonder if the introduction of Manchester services will see the sets permanently rotated. If they stay as they are now we'll end up with 67s with ETH running parked at the concourse end under the shed at Manchester Piccadilly, which might not be terribly popular. The sets are due to be reformed when the extra carriages are introduced anyway (with 1st class moved away from it's awkward position in the middle of the formation).

I would personally expect the first class coach (presumably behind the DVT after the re-form), to be at the Manchester end, but that's just what I would expect. I doubt the 67s would be allowed to be under the trainshed at Piccadilly for emission reasons.

 

[Watershed]

I would personally expect the first class coach (presumably behind the DVT after the re-form), to be at the Manchester end, but that's just what I would expect. I doubt the 67s would be allowed to be under the trainshed at Piccadilly for emission reasons.

68/Mk5 sets run in and out of the main shed, in both orientations, every day of the week. There is no restriction on their use, nor do I foresee any reason why there would be for 67s.

There are plenty of stations with issues with fumes - Piccadilly isn't one of them, due to the fact the trainshed's roof is very high and has gaps to allow for ventilation (albeit this has the unfortunate side effect of causing rain to cascade down as a fine mist!).

Trying to keep sets the "right" way around on a network as complex and branched as TfW's is a complete waste of time. No doubt they will realise this sooner rather than later!

 

[craigybagel]

I would personally expect the first class coach (presumably behind the DVT after the re-form), to be at the Manchester end, but that's just what I would expect. I doubt the 67s would be allowed to be under the trainshed at Piccadilly for emission reasons.

Another poster did mention the planned formation for the 5 car sets but I can't remember the exact details now. There was no mention of orientation however.

Trying to keep sets the "right" way around on a network as complex and branched as TfW's is a complete waste of time. No doubt they will realise this sooner rather than later!

And yet most of the Intercity operators manage to keep their sets the right way around the vast majority of the time, on networks much more complex then what the TfW sets will be working? Yes the whole TfW network is quite complicated, but these sets will only be working two routes.

These very same trains were virtually always kept with the DVT at the King's Cross end in their previous career on the ECML. Why on earth can't TfW aim for the same thing?

68/Mk5 sets run in and out of the main shed, in both orientations, every day of the week. There is no restriction on their use, nor do I foresee any reason why there would be for 67s.

There are plenty of stations with issues with fumes - Piccadilly isn't one of them, due to the fact the trainshed's roof is very high and has gaps to allow for ventilation (albeit this has the unfortunate side effect of causing rain to cascade down as a fine mist!).

To be fair it wasn't so much the ventilation issues that worried me (as you say, 68s cope ok) but more of a noise problem. 67s with ETH running are very noisy.

 

[47827]

It'll depend on complaints levels, if any, as to whether 67s being on the buffer stop end makes any difference. Although in most if not all platforms it can use I'd imagine the 67 will be under or almost under the canopy regardless of which way around it goes on the set given the sets are slightly shorter than the 7 coach XC ones that used the same platforms and don't have a loco on either end. The trains could stop short so the 67 pokes out but can't see it. Worth noting that the train shed of the station can be more regularly full of other noisy and smokey diesel units, albeit not as many as at one time, such as 185s (although just noise), 150s and 156s. These 67s will only arrive several times a day for no more than 25 to 30 minutes if they use similar paths to now.