Russia invades Ukraine

[43096]

The risk of war in Europe can no longer be considered unimaginable.

It isn't unimaginable, to me at least. Sitting in a town square in Croatia in 2012, looking at the war memorial and seeing that it was for a conflict that finished just 17 years before rather made the point. That and the signs saying "minefield" alongside considerable stretches of railway rather brings the point home.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It is being reported on social media that Putin has just fired his Military Chief of Staff, a chap called Gerasimov.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==

There is an argument that appeasement worked, as it bought time for re-armament for Britain.

*I'm not saying we should appease Putin, however.

That assumes that war was inevitable. There is perhaps an argument that Hitler would not have been emboldened enough to invade Poland if the response to Czechoslovakia had been stronger.

 

[Gostav]

It is being reported on social media that Putin has just fired his Military Chief of Staff, a chap called Gerasimov.

Well, l find it is good to watch more news from other sources, like Czech news.
For example, someone has counted the 6 companies of the 31st brigade of the Russian Airborne Forces were completely wiped out by Ukraine 6 times, and at least 22 times in the Western European and American media. The battle loss rate was as high as 2800%, But they still persisted until they joined forces with their allies.

 

[Eyersey468]

Nothing should be done summarily, it should all be done via proper judicial process so that those who genuinely are complicit can be sanctioned as appropriate and those that are found innocent can live here happily ever after. Groups of people should not be indiscriminately tarred with the same brush. I’m sorry, but totalitarianism is not for me.

I agree

 

[Iskra]

Does anyone else sense that 'talks on the Belarus border' is a trap, where they can grab Zelensky? Or am I now just totally paranoid about Russian intentions.

 

[Strathclyder]

When the Wall came down in 1989 (thanks to Gorbachev), he was promised (as part of the deal to reunify East & West Germany) that there would be no further NATO expansion eastwards. You can check this out here: https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-...on-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early This is the TRUTH!!!

No, the agreement was that NATO wouldn't move it's nuclear weapons further eastwards and that promise has been kept.

Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner Slavic Studies Panel Addresses “Who Promised What to Whom on NATO Expansion?”

Since then NATO has expanded into 12 countries further eastwards. The Soviet Union (then) and Russia (now) was lied to, duped and "conned"by the USA (who basically run NATO) in to believing that it could trust the West. I am no supporter of Putin but I can sure understand why he is so pissed off!

Last I checked, those assurances weren't legally binding ones. At any rate, the Russia of today is rather different to the one just after the fall of communism, so it'd be wise to take that into account when talking about past agreements.

It's perfectly clear that the Eastern European countries you cite don't pose a threat to Russia and, if Russia really didn't want to invade them, what the hell is their problem? Not Putin's land, none of his bloody business.

It should be crystal clear by now that the promises and assurances of governments/heads of state don't mean a damn thing when their actions blatantly contradict the former; Putin's actions have only served to drive this point further home.

 

[alistairlees]

Does anyone else sense that 'talks on the Belarus border' is a trap, where they can grab Zelensky? Or am I now just totally paranoid about Russian intentions.

Zelensky won’t be there

 

[nw1]

I regret, but you are either badly misinformed or else totally dumb.

When the Wall came down in 1989 (thanks to Gorbachev), he was promised (as part of the deal to reunify East & West Germany) that there would be no further NATO expansion eastwards. You can check this out here: https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-...on-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early This is the TRUTH!!!

Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner Slavic Studies Panel Addresses “Who Promised What to Whom on NATO Expansion?”

Since then NATO has expanded into 12 countries further eastwards. The Soviet Union (then) and Russia (now) was lied to, duped and "conned"by the USA (who basically run NATO) in to believing that it could trust the West. I am no supporter of Putin but I can sure understand why he is so pissed off!

The difference is that after the wall came down Russia was run by relatively moderate people, not an extremist murderous tyrant.

Any so-called 'right on' person that might have any shred of sympathy for Putin at all needs to read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pussy_Riot

When this happened I knew all I needed to know about Putin.

 

[DanNCL]

The difference is that after the wall came down Russia was run by relatively moderate people, not an extremist murderous tyrant.

Any so-called 'right on' person that might have any shred of sympathy for Putin at all needs to read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pussy_Riot

When this happened I knew for sure Putin was an evil little (insert expletive here).

Putin was Boris Yeltsin's prefered person to succeed him as president. The path for Putin to get to where he is now has been there right from the moment the Soviet Union collapsed.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Does anyone else sense that 'talks on the Belarus border' is a trap, where they can grab Zelensky? Or am I now just totally paranoid about Russian intentions.

you’re not on your own @Iskra

Zelensky won’t be there

I would sincerely hope not.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Well, l find it is good to watch more news from other sources, like Czech news.
For example, someone has counted the 6 companies of the 31st brigade of the Russian Airborne Forces were completely wiped out by Ukraine 6 times, and at least 22 times in the Western European and American media. The battle loss rate was as high as 2800%, But they still persisted until they joined forces with their allies.

What is your point? I don’t see how misreporting of the status of a particular military unit has anything to do with Putin’s Military Chief of Staff.

 

[birchesgreen]

Well, l find it is good to watch more news from other sources, like Czech news.
For example, someone has counted the 6 companies of the 31st brigade of the Russian Airborne Forces were completely wiped out by Ukraine 6 times, and at least 22 times in the Western European and American media. The battle loss rate was as high as 2800%, But they still persisted until they joined forces with their allies.

Yeah there is a tendancy, because they are the good guys, for people to believe everything the Ukrainians are reporting. We should be just as critical as we do to the Russians. All sides use propaganda in war, in WW2 the British had a huge department.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Zelensky won’t be there

That's reassuring. I wonder if Zelensky's government assessed that and decided it would be too risky to send him.

 

[birchesgreen]

That's reassuring. I wonder if Zelensky's government assessed that and decided it would be too risky to send him.

No, it wouldn't be normal for him to go, just as Putin won't be there. You never send your leader to these things.

At the end of the first gulf war, for example, Saddam didn't sign the surrender, it was some of his generals.

 

[tommy2215]

FIFA has always been a den of corruption and that is still the case now. Rather doing the obvious thing that is banning Russia from the World Cup, Russia's punishment is having to play as the 'Football Union of Russia'. What a joke

 

[Ediswan]

That's reassuring. I wonder if Zelensky's government assessed that and decided it would be too risky to send him.

Has anybody figured out the location. The descriptions I have seen say 'on the border, near the Pripyat river', which is in the middle of the Chornobyl Exclusion Zone.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Any meeting to resolve this should take place in Poland, Turkey or Belgium.

 

[DanNCL]

Seen reported on Twitter that Kosovo have just applied to join NATO and requested a permanent US military presence on their territory, both in response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Can’t say I’m surprised, but I’m not sure Serbia will be too happy about this!

 

[alistairlees]

Has anybody figured out the location. The descriptions I have seen say 'on the border, near the Pripyat river', which is in the middle of the Chornobyl Exclusion Zone.

Although I suspect you are right (it being near Chernobyl, rather than in the zone, though!), the Pripyat does also cross the Ukraine / Belarus border further west.

 

[Ediswan]

Although I suspect you are right (it being near Chernobyl, rather than in the zone, though!), the Pripyat does also cross the Ukraine / Belarus border further west.

I have been using OpenStreetMap. Acccording to that, where the river crosses the border is in the zone. Here is OSM rendered to use English names (where available).
https://www.osmap.uk/#10/51.4959/30.1273

Edit: I see what you mean about the second crossing point.

 

[HST274]

Yeah there is a tendancy, because they are the good guys, for people to believe everything the Ukrainians are reporting. We should be just as critical as we do to the Russians. All sides use propaganda in war, in WW2 the British had a huge department.

I agree. Some footage of 'The Ghost of Kyiv' for example was found to have come from a video game. However if propaganda helps Ukraine win they can spread it everywhere and I am all for it. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and we are past desperate times at this point.

 

[YorkshireBear]

During his evening programme tonight, Russian state TV presenter Dmitry Kiselyov delivered a monologue in which he posed the question: "why do we need a world if Russia's not in it?"

He was considering President Putin’s announcement today that he is putting Russia’s nuclear forces on high alert.

"In total our submarines are capable of launching over 500 nuclear warheads, which guarantees the destruction of the US and all Nato countries to boot," he said on his Vesti Nedeli show.

"That's according to the principle 'why do we need a world if Russia's not in it?'

"Russia's nuclear weapons are also delivered by the fastest strategic bombers in the world," he said, adding that "we won't even talk about our Strategic Rocket Forces".

"In total, Russia's nuclear capability is the most powerful in the world," he said.

"Now Russia's entire nuclear triad has been placed on special alert. Putin warned them. Don't try to frighten Russia."

BBC live feed

Interesting latest post on the BBC live feed. I mean you must have to be just as mad to get a programme on their state TV.

Are they not over estimating their own ability here?

 

[dgl]

I thought America had the biggest nuclear arsenal, I'd at least expect it to be the most advanced.
Threatening NATO countries is not a clever move to make as if NATO get properly involved Russia is finished.

 

[Chingy]

I thought America had the biggest nuclear arsenal, I'd at least expect it to be the most advanced.
Threatening NATO countries is not a clever move to make as if NATO get properly involved Russia is finished.

To be fair, if there's a NATO/Russia Nuclear war, then the Northern Hemisphere is finished!

 

[dakta]

Russia possess the most warheads - however given the above which I saw on BBC news it smacks a bit like desperation tbh, 'nobody loves us whats the point of the world' (I appreciate it thats quite dramatic)

I doubt having the most warheads will matter even if it came to it

 

[najaB]

I thought America had the biggest nuclear arsenal, I'd at least expect it to be the most advanced.

AIUI, the Russian Federation has more warheads, but the American weapons have higher yield and are more accurate.

Either side has the ability to end modern civilisation.

 

[Gloster]

AIUI, the Russian Federation has more warheads, but the American weapons have higher yield and are more accurate.

Great. Blown to atoms and they weren’t even aiming at me.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Great. Blown to atoms and they weren’t even aiming at me.

Would it make you feel more important if they were aiming at you?

 

[Roast Veg]

Well yes, I do find it strange this war has been forgotten as it was certainly bloodier than this has been so far.

The Balkan war had many more actors, meaning that explaining it to Joe public was harder than this war.

There's a theory going round that Putin is terminally ill, with his paranoia increased by Covid isolation & the solitary time allowing him to read up on propaganda material.
Thus, witness the non-sensical invasion & the nuclear level. All the signs of a man who knows he's close to the end & no longer cares about rationality who also has a chip on his shoulder.

Even if it's not true, it does his image no good to say it aloud.

 

[brad465]

Today's best thing on Twitter in response to all this goes to this exchange:

https://twitter.com/Dictionarycom/status/1498033493561032710

We’re not entirely sure what this tweet is supposed to mean, and we’re literally the dictionary.