No surprise whatsoever to me. IMO the far right and Putin are very, very similar.
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Russia invades Ukraine
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
What is seemingly happening in Kherson (in the south of Ukraine) is an example of the strategy Russian forces used in Syria: Surround a city, lay siege, grind down the people through shelling and rocket attacks, starve them out.
That's what will happen in Kyiv. Civilians are fair game in this Russian strategy which is designed to break civilian morale. In in this strategy civilians are not just fair game but key targets in the plan. We will see more and more use of artillery and unguided missiles indiscriminately firing on civilian areas. The Russians simply do not give a $hit.
That's what will happen in Kyiv. Civilians are fair game in this Russian strategy which is designed to break civilian morale. In in this strategy civilians are not just fair game but key targets in the plan. We will see more and more use of artillery and unguided missiles indiscriminately firing on civilian areas. The Russians simply do not give a $hit.
Or rather, Putin doesn't give a s***. Let's hope enough millitary types in Russia think for themselves and turn on Putin rather than acting like imbecilic, moronic, obedient sheep.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
they havent so far!
Only a few days in. Hopefully the effect that it's having on Russia itself will encourage some of them to see things differently.
Is it really worth dragging your country (Russia) into poverty all for the sake of serving some egotistical alpha-male and his inferiority complex?
It's precisely why I think people should be taught from an early age to think for themselves and question authority. If that is the default mindset of people, then anyone who tries to act like a dictator is more likely to be pulled down.
Wilts Wanderer
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That’s unsurprising - read up on Aleksandr Dugin. He’s a Russian political thinker/philosopher/writer who has been the driving force behind Putin’s political ideology and strategy, and increasingly his foreign policy. His roots lie within a fusion of Russian bolshevism and national socialist dogma and advocates for the reunification of a Greater Russia and eventual overturning of the current world order into a multi-polar situation that a strong ethnically superior Russia can dominate economically, militarily and politically. To say he has literally written the Putin playbook is not an understatement - current and recent events can be quite clearly traced back to his thinking, particularly the (traditionally Nazi) technique of accusing your enemy / future victims of all the things that you yourself are actually doing in reality.
Probably one of the most dangerous men alive on the planet at the moment. Note he’s also something of a god-figure among far right groups worldwide, and has close links to Bannon, Trump, and others,
Entirely predictable. I would have thought replicating the actions against Russia to Belarus will give no-one sleepless nights, although we really ought to try to ramp them up for the sake of the Baltic States and Poland.
Source: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/wor...oin-russian-invasion/ar-AAUswOf?ocid=msedgntp
Lukashenko: pathetic brown-nosing mindless vacuous puppet who is incapable of thinking for himself.
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GS250
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Funnily enough I was 'accused' of being a far leftie in the USA for daring to suggest there should be a new high speed line built between Las Vegas an Los Angeles!
Dare I say they've also seen hundreds of their own soldiers dead and have now decided this is actually a war not some kind of walkover. There's good and bad in every country and culture but yes, when it comes to basically not giving a $hit the Russians score highly. Civilian casualties are sadly a big part of many a war strategy. It can result in a much faster surrender depending on the regime's appetite for preserving life.
Oh yes, the fantasy world of the far right. The real enemies of the world are not Putin, the real dangers to your own country are not Trump and his bunch of moronic redneck supporters. Oh no - they are high speed railways from LA to Las Vegas!!!
Evil communist high speed line, stop it now!!!
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I'm just hoping that will help some of the senior Russian officials see sense and realise there is no point waging this war in the name of Putin's ego.
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Thing is, in Syria it was (to the Russians) 'only' brown people. In Ukraine they are supposedly liberating their fellow Russians. It's hard to enjoy the benefits of liberation when you've been ground down and starved. I think that only the very inner core of the Russian Army will support such an approach.
brad465
Established Member
How to put the entire UK journalism base to shame (I don't think Johnson will be doing press conferences abroad again anytime soon):
(Video)
(Video)
dakta
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As has happened many times over history, the pushing of buttons to fire missiles (even where civilians are involved) is a duty, a process undertaken by people selected not to think or question.
So if ordered - you can be confident it will be done. Re 'russians don't give a $hit' I think whilst a bit crude we're not far off the mark - they will do as told and you can count on it.
The above link actually sums up my own (current) feelings on this, whilst we've given a lot of big words and weapons and placed a lot of sanctions on russia - in terms that matter to Ukraine the west has observed whilst taking credit for support whose material benefit will be to massage our guilt.
Some will argue that the west has 'stuck to contract' an a situation where an opressor has done the opposite of everything they've said, innocent people have died, and will continue die as a result and I think this is our own legacy in the making. I don't think you can give peace a chance in these situations, all you can do is make sure that in the fray a message is heard for the days that come after, and at the moment that message is 'we are bluster'.
Extremely far fetched but I hope that skilled people 'without identifying documents' have been entering with the weapons shipments and hanging around with them.
So if ordered - you can be confident it will be done. Re 'russians don't give a $hit' I think whilst a bit crude we're not far off the mark - they will do as told and you can count on it.
The above link actually sums up my own (current) feelings on this, whilst we've given a lot of big words and weapons and placed a lot of sanctions on russia - in terms that matter to Ukraine the west has observed whilst taking credit for support whose material benefit will be to massage our guilt.
Some will argue that the west has 'stuck to contract' an a situation where an opressor has done the opposite of everything they've said, innocent people have died, and will continue die as a result and I think this is our own legacy in the making. I don't think you can give peace a chance in these situations, all you can do is make sure that in the fray a message is heard for the days that come after, and at the moment that message is 'we are bluster'.
Extremely far fetched but I hope that skilled people 'without identifying documents' have been entering with the weapons shipments and hanging around with them.
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DynamicSpirit
Established Member
One thing that caught my eye is that the British Government is apparently calling for Russia to be expelled from the UN security council. (link)
Does anyone have any idea how that works? Is there a process for expelling countries from the security council? (I'm assuming there must be some mechanism because something like that happened when Taiwan was expelled and replaced by mainland China back in the 1970s)
Does anyone have any idea how that works? Is there a process for expelling countries from the security council? (I'm assuming there must be some mechanism because something like that happened when Taiwan was expelled and replaced by mainland China back in the 1970s)
BBC said:
Lieutenant Colonel Stanislav Petrov.
We (NATO and the EU) have given financial and military aid to Ukraine and you can be 100% sure that we're providing all the intelligence that we have. We have agreed to take in refugees, no questions asked. There are rumours that we have small numbers of special forces on the ground.
If we take as given that we do not want an all-out war with Russia, what more can we do?
There's certainly been some signs of Russian troops showing significant restraint. You don't have to go looking too hard to find videos of Ukrainian civilians confronting soldiers and asking, quite firmly shall we say, what they think they're doing in Ukraine and to go home. There's videos of groups of civilians blocking Russian tanks and either delaying them or even, it seems in one case, causing them to give up and turn around to find a different way forward. But equally there's the horrific images coming out of Kharkiv and elsewhere of indiscriminate use weapons on civilians.
I think what's happening is that the conscripts that are actually coming up against Ukrainian civilians in front of their tanks and when they're on foot patrols are finding out that they're not welcome, that the Ukrainians often speak their language, look like them, their cities and villages look like the ones back home. Whilst the propaganda that they've been seeing has been telling them that Ukrainians are their brothers and sisters (of course in some cases this is close to literal with cousins and in-laws being split up between Ukraine and Russia), that they're part of Russia yearning to be free of the neo-Nazi's in Kyiv. So when those two visions clash they're not reacting with violence because, at least for now, they're still seeing the Ukrainian civilians as human.
Meanwhile the guys who are pushing the button on the rocket launcher twenty miles behind the front line (or are still in Russia/Belarus for the guys launching the short range ballistic missiles) aren't having those interactions. They aren't looking into the face of the Ukrainian babushka who is berating them for being in her country. It's an awful lot easier to disassociate your action from the suffering it causes when you can't see it happening and don't have to explain to an angry crowd, who speak your language, look like your friends and family and live in a town that looks like where you grew up why you just killed and maimed their friends, family and fellow citizens.
dakta
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Not to be harsh, but they've got hundreds of thousands of soliders prepared and ready - pointing weapons, albeit conventional ones at innocent civilians so if you wish to make the point that people would withhold on the sake of humanity I would hope there'd be more than one name to count on
if we use experience to tell us if russians are likely to hold back in the name of humanity I don't think we need history books as such, the bbc coverage for the last 24 hours should do
if we use experience to tell us if russians are likely to hold back in the name of humanity I don't think we need history books as such, the bbc coverage for the last 24 hours should do
Taiwan wasn't expelled. China was and continues to be a permanent member. What happened was that the UN general assembly voted to stop recognising The Republic of China as the legitimate government and to start recognising the People's Republic of China.
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Do you know who he is and what he did or, more importantly, didn't do?
Scotrail314209
Established Member
It's slightly stark how many people are advocating for a 'No-Fly Zone' over Ukraine, when we all know full well what would happen as a result.
These people either don't know the consequences of a no-fly zone, as it does mean a direct conflict with Russia. People advocating clearly don't realise how serious it would be.
Aka, we'd be down s*** creek without a paddle, and said creek leads to a high waterfall.
These people either don't know the consequences of a no-fly zone, as it does mean a direct conflict with Russia. People advocating clearly don't realise how serious it would be.
Aka, we'd be down s*** creek without a paddle, and said creek leads to a high waterfall.
squizzler
Established Member
The cleaning up of our financial system seems to be having the desired effect and should continue to be prosecuted with haste. This has the double benefit that a financial and political system cleaned of dirty money will be a benefit during peace time forevermore.
I do think it is time to grant the Ukrainians request for a no-fly zone over their country. The imposition of such a thing does not create war with Russia. Rather it would be the flouting of such a zone by Russian planes that causes them to come into conflict with NATO. Takes two to tango.
If two people are in a room, up to their waists in petrol, does it really make a difference which one of them it is who strikes a match?
dakta
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The rest of the world won't go in such a room again
dramatic lesson - a bit exagerated but given the point I was making above was about whether Russians will hold back over flattening it (talking Ukraine not nuclear war), I stand my case that they will press the buttons, the city will be flattened if they are ordered to and not stopped via resistance.
dramatic lesson - a bit exagerated but given the point I was making above was about whether Russians will hold back over flattening it (talking Ukraine not nuclear war), I stand my case that they will press the buttons, the city will be flattened if they are ordered to and not stopped via resistance.
For once, it's not Johnson that is the main subject of concern here.
I am a bit alarmed by some of the responses to that thread on Twitter, there seems to be a lot of sabre-rattling and over the top suggestions that WW3 "has already started" and suggestions of actions that might provoke Putin further.
While we should obviously help Ukrainians defend themselves, and unilaterally condemn Putin himself, is it not now time to calm down the sabre-rattling a bit? I do think some in the west, and sadly not just the typical right-wing militarists, are rattling their sabres too loudly now.
squizzler
Established Member
Crap metaphor. If a no-fly zone is imposed over Ukraine’s legitimate airspace, it is the Russian fault if they fly into it. All the civilian airliners seem to be managing to avoid it.
A NATO/Russia (and effectively a third world war) is, in my opinion, extremely likely to happen at some point, regardless of whether there is an enforced, no fly zone or not.
Putin won't stop at Ukraine and I just can't see any other (realistic) way out.
Putin won't stop at Ukraine and I just can't see any other (realistic) way out.
Watching Peston last night , Ukraine special. David Davis and another politician were saying that they should of had a no fly zone before the invasion. But they think we might still have to think about imposing one if the conflict doesn't end soon.
It is this sort of dangerous militarism that will increase the chances of a third world war. We MUST not provoke nuclear conflict. Nothing is worth that.
It's time for talks. I know this may be an unpopular opinion, but maybe, to save any more bloodshed, Ukraine might just need to accept that it cannot be part of NATO. Not an ideal solution but the least worst.
None of us want to escalate this further and making assumptions that Putin is as bad as Hitler is dangerous. He is a thoroughly evil individual but assumptions that he wants to conquer the whole of eastern Europe are dangerously far fetched.
Wilts Wanderer
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No, it is a very good metaphor. Who cares who’s fault it is, ultimately everyone will end up on fire? You seem to think that Russia would see that enforcement of a no-fly zone (by NATO) as not justifying an escalation into full Russia-NATO conflict. Consider that at this point, Russia sees Ukraine as its own territory, hence the invasion. From their perspective, NATO would be enforcing a no fly zone over part of Russia’s own airspace, which would be deemed unacceptable and an act of war.
Which presumably didn't count as amending the Charter which would be the sticky point. The current UN Charter lists the members of the Security Council - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Charter_of_the_United_Nations#Composition_2
To remove Russia, rather than stating some other country is the successor to the USSR would I imagine require rewriting the Charter. But the section on amending the Charter states: (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Charter_of_the_United_Nations#Chapter_XVIII_-_Amendments)
I suspect you wouldn't see Russia accepting an amendment that wrote themselves out of a permanent Security Council seat.