Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Mrwerdna1]

I have to disagree about the Lothian website. The timetables are confusing and unclear while the use of "spider maps" for Network maps is something that should've been left in 2005. First Glasgow's network and route maps are much better, albeit their online timetables are just as confusing.

Fair enough, but that would have to be a matter of personal preference then. Just to be clear, I also think the timetables and maps could be improved (I've certainly seen a lot better in Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Denmark), but I still prefer Lothian's to Firstbus's. I also find the website, as a whole, to be more intuitive, but that could just be me.

I would likely to see better route integration in Edinburgh. I'm sure there are corridors where multiple routes combine to provide a cohesive frequency but this isn't advertised anywhere nor are there combined timetables. Route numbering could also be better in some cases.

Absolutely. Though the route numbering should for the most part not be touched in my view (Glasgow's route numbering is a mess), some minor adjustments could definitely be made. On the one hand, route numbering could be changed to reflect which lines have higher frequencies (12 minutes or less) and which lines operate less frequently. On the other hand, several "core" routes, made up of bundled lines, could be advertised to have "ultra high" or "turn up and go" frequencies. I know that in practice buses still get stuck in traffic, bunch up etc. But the frequencies on core sections would still be (and are already today) higher than a bus every 12-20 minutes. Also, as has been pointed out many times, more bus-priority could also help alleviate some of the bus bunching problems.

The 26 used to be 8 buses an hour. The 22 was also very regular prior to Covid. Other services (e.g. 3,31 and 44) haven't returned to pre covid levels but maybe will in time.

Right, well let's hope those frequencies are upped again at some point, funding permitting.

 

[Lothian_Bus]

Going back a bit, the 26 used to be every five minutes on the city section and every ten minutes through Musselburgh, where the route split to run to Seton Sands (26), Tranent via Prestonpans (also 26) and directly to Tranent (26A). This was back in 2000 when the first stage of the network revamp saw the 26/26A/X85/X86 corridor simplified to become the 26 and 26A and the route in Edinburgh city centre changed to run via St Andrew Square and London Road Instead of Waterloo Place and Regent Road.

Yes that's true. I lived on the 26 route at the time and it wasn't uncommon to see 3 at once coming.

 

[Vectron383]

ECB 54 Sporting the new livery yesterday
(Own photo)

 

[CN04NRJ]

The remaining B5TLs are at Central now, 697 is out on the 10.

 

[Blindtraveler]

So that will be it for double-deck new vehicles for a while now and indeed probably for new vehicles in general, unless we're getting some more singles of some kind this year?

 

[computerSaysNo]

So that will be it for double-deck new vehicles for a while now and indeed probably for new vehicles in general, unless we're getting some more singles of some kind this year?

I'd expect there to be a big order in a few years' time to replace the 2011 B9s, I'm not sure there will be anything before that though as there aren't that many 2010 reg vehicles in the fleet. If Airlink is in need of new vehicles then possibly a small order for that, and then the current vehicles can effectively replace the 2010 B9s? Not sure how that would work though as the 2010 B9s are all with East Coast I think.

 

[CN04NRJ]

All of the 200s are now at Marine.

 

[Bus9120UK]

All of the 200s are now at Marine.

Ties in with 691/4/7/8 entering service / arriving at central

 

[Blindtraveler]

Presumably if the airlink xlb have to be replaced due to some rules and regulations demanded by the airport they would simply move to Central and cascade a similar number of of b 5 out of there to East coast who would then lose their are 2010 plate be 9.





From a fleet point of view, the way I see things now is that all eyes will be on the battery replacement and assorted upgrade work to the 7900 to see if there not exactly brilliant record can be improved upon? If it can't then I predict that sometime in the next two or three years they will simply place a large order for singles, some diesel some electric and oust the entire lot.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Presumably if the airlink xlb have to be replaced due to some rules and regulations demanded by the airport they would simply move to Central and cascade a similar number of of b 5 out of there to East coast who would then lose their are 2010 plate be 9.





From a fleet point of view, the way I see things now is that all eyes will be on the battery replacement and assorted upgrade work to the 7900 to see if there not exactly brilliant record can be improved upon? If it can't then I predict that sometime in the next two or three years they will simply place a large order for singles, some diesel some electric and oust the entire lot.

I’m not sure what others think but for me I would think it’s more likely that ECB would get new stock rather than cascades if it’s a good chunk of ECB’s fleet being replaced. 1131-1140 could still go to city duties at Central but instead replace some of the 11 plate B9TL’s.

The oldest 7900’s are almost 10 years old now and they’re probably due for replacement around 2024-2026 anyway. I would expect the last of the Eclipse2’s to go around the same time as well.

 

[stantheman]

All of the 200s are now at Marine.

For sale ?

 

[Busman757]

171/2 have appeared back at LC.

 

[Baileygirl]

171/2 have appeared back at LC.

Are 171/2 in new LC livery?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Are 171/2 in new LC livery?

No, still outgoing Lothian livery.

 

[CN04NRJ]

For sale ?

I assume so, i've been led to believe they're definitely not coming back into service (215 left yesterday for Marine, so they're all gone now).

Bus 4 and bus 10 did the 15/X31 afternoon peak services yesterday though!

 

[computerSaysNo]

How are Lothian getting on with their four E400MMC EVs? As I notice First Glasgow have a lot more electric vehicles than Lothian, I'm surprised Lothian haven't made a big order of electrics yet.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

How are Lothian getting on with their four E400MMC EVs? As I notice First Glasgow have a lot more electric vehicles than Lothian, I'm surprised Lothian haven't made a big order of electrics yet.

I’m not surprised at all that no big order has been made. Given the current circumstances with the economy unless bigger than normal funding is there I doubt it will happen just now.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I'm quite surprised that the 200s haven't gone to Lothian Country for the 43 for example. I would have thought that would be just about the right number along with a few spares for West Lothian duties particularly at school times. But personally I shan't be sorry to see them go.

 

[CN04NRJ]

How are Lothian getting on with their four E400MMC EVs? As I notice First Glasgow have a lot more electric vehicles than Lothian, I'm surprised Lothian haven't made a big order of electrics yet.

The BYDs certainly wouldn't cope with the majority of routes/schedules. Some buses are out for 20 hours, fuelled and cleaned then back out on nightbus - then repeat the cycle.

I think it's well known that the BYD E400s at all operators aren't living up to their advertised mileage range - personally I can see the future of Lothian being hydrogen. Just as an example, a BYD uses almost 5% battery just going from Morningside Crescent up to Greenbank.

 

[computerSaysNo]

The BYDs certainly wouldn't cope with the majority of routes/schedules. Some buses are out for 20 hours, fuelled and cleaned then back out on nightbus - then repeat the cycle.

I think it's well known that the BYD E400s at all operators aren't living up to their advertised mileage range - personally I can see the future of Lothian being hydrogen. Just as an example, a BYD uses almost 5% battery just going from Morningside Crescent up to Greenbank.

That's not going to be unique to Lothian though? What about all the electric buses in Glasgow and London, some of them are going to be out for 20 hours a day too aren't they?

 

[scosutsut]

The other thing to remember is Lothian's fleet age profile is much better than First's as they've constantly invested throughout the years.

They made (and met) their Euro 5 / Euro 6+ only by 2020 statement and I assume are pretty close to Euro 6 + only by now (if not there already?)

Euro 6 is sufficient for the incoming Edinburgh LEZ too.

Lothian probably feel burned by all their hybrid & electric purchases so far - the E400s that later went all diesel. The 7900Hs that are getting battery replacements and don't mention the wretched StreetAirs....

Long story short, I don't think Lothian are in any rush to join this particular bandwagon, to the extent others are and putting off just allows the technology to mature, improve and get more affordable.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

That's not going to be unique to Lothian though? What about all the electric buses in Glasgow and London, some of them are going to be out for 20 hours a day too aren't they?

The Glasgow ones seem to be limited to bus boards which aren't out all night, or they get swapped over around tea-time at the depot. Likewise the Dundee BYD E400 Citys are limited to bus boards which are back in the garage by 8pm

 

[Jordan Adam]

How are Lothian getting on with their four E400MMC EVs? As I notice First Glasgow have a lot more electric vehicles than Lothian, I'm surprised Lothian haven't made a big order of electrics yet.

It's probably a good thing Lothian haven't bought any in large numbers. The BYD E400EV has a claimed range of 160 miles but realistically they'll do around 120 hence as mentioned they usually need to be swapped at some point during the day.

Of all the EVs the Yutongs by far seem the most impressive offering in my opinion but i'd imagine an arms-length municipal like Lothian would be hesitant to buy them and they don't yet have a decker offering in the UK.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's probably a good thing Lothian haven't bought any in large numbers. The BYD E400EV has a claimed range of 160 miles but realistically they'll do around 120 hence as mentioned they usually need to be swapped at some point during the day.

Of all the EVs the Yutongs by far seem the most impressive offering in my opinion but i'd imagine an arms-length municipal like Lothian would be hesitant to buy them and they don't yet have a decker offering in the UK.

Both Cardiff and Newport have Yutongs

 

[Blindtraveler]

I should imagine the 160 my range claim is based on a flat or almost totally flat route with far less acceleration from a standing start. Edinburgh cannot unfortunately live up to either of those characteristics

There has been in an electric appearing on A27 diagram in the mornings recently and twice now I've forgotten it was on that diagram and ended up having to swap buses halfway to my destination as the batteries when knackered and they had to get it back to the depot.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I should imagine the 160 my range claim is based on a flat or almost totally flat route with far less acceleration from a standing start. Edinburgh cannot unfortunately live up to either of those characteristics

Indeed, the 160 mile advertised range for the E400EV will most likely be in "ideal" conditions. However that aside the range of the BYDs is just generally far behind that of the competition now. I can understand why Lothian have stuck to diesels when the majority of it's fleet are deckers as until recently the only real offerings on the market were the E400EV or Metrodecker, neither of which have particularly great range.

The 7900Hs that are getting battery replacements

I wouldn't really say that's unexpected though, they're 7-9 years old. Lothian were probably expecting to have to replace the batteries around now.

 

[GusB]

The other thing to remember is Lothian's fleet age profile is much better than First's as they've constantly invested throughout the years.

They made (and met) their Euro 5 / Euro 6+ only by 2020 statement and I assume are pretty close to Euro 6 + only by now (if not there already?)

Euro 6 is sufficient for the incoming Edinburgh LEZ too.

Lothian probably feel burned by all their hybrid & electric purchases so far - the E400s that later went all diesel. The 7900Hs that are getting battery replacements and don't mention the wretched StreetAirs....

Long story short, I don't think Lothian are in any rush to join this particular bandwagon, to the extent others are and putting off just allows the technology to mature, improve and get more affordable.

If the fleet is sufficiently upgraded as it is (for now, anyway) in order to meet the low-emissions zone requirements, then I think it's probably a canny move to pause for a while and wait to see how other operators fare with their zero-emission vehicles before actually committing to any further purchases.

Has there been any more word about how the Metrodecker demonstrator got on when it was in Edinburgh?

 

[computerSaysNo]

From a fleet point of view, the way I see things now is that all eyes will be on the battery replacement and assorted upgrade work to the 7900 to see if there not exactly brilliant record can be improved upon? If it can't then I predict that sometime in the next two or three years they will simply place a large order for singles, some diesel some electric and oust the entire lot.

The oldest 7900’s are almost 10 years old now and they’re probably due for replacement around 2024-2026 anyway. I would expect the last of the Eclipse2’s to go around the same time as well.

To be fair, the few 7900s I've travelled on which have had the battery replacement have seemed excellent, they can get up to quite a speed on battery power which really helps the acceleration.

 

[90019]

I'm quite surprised that the 200s haven't gone to Lothian Country for the 43 for example. I would have thought that would be just about the right number along with a few spares for West Lothian duties particularly at school times. But personally I shan't be sorry to see them go.

They're not particularly suitable for runs outside the city due to the small engine and lack of power - running them at high speeds for too long will usually result in a breakdown from the engine being pushed too hard.

 

[mb88]

They're not particularly suitable for runs outside the city due to the small engine and lack of power - running them at high speeds for too long will usually result in a breakdown from the engine being pushed too hard.

The 43 doesn’t really have many sections of fast running. Only a small stretch between Crammond Brig and the Dalmeny turnoff is a 50mph limit. And would the same not apply to 571-578 which are also hybrids and run on Lothian Country services on fast A roads?