P&O Ferries - mass redundancies without consultation

[Towers]

There's enough UK <-> Europe demand to maintain a service. Additional traffic not contributing to the UK economy is not welcome. Mainland European countries can't really avoid it (but can tax it, e.g. via the Swiss Vignette or the German LKW-Maut) but we can and should.

But it does contribute to the economy, through keeping ports in business and sustaining jobs?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it does contribute to the economy, through keeping ports in business and sustaining jobs?

And probably cups of Costa at service stations. But it's minimal.

If we implemented proper tolling it could bring in decent income, that said. We do have something a bit like the Swiss Vignette I believe.

 

[Towers]

And probably cups of Costa at service stations. But it's minimal.

If we implemented proper tolling it could bring in decent income, that said. We do have something a bit like the Swiss Vignette I believe.

I agree, it isn't a major contributor. But I would argue that keeping ports in business is significant, they can offer significant local employment opportunities.

 

[yorksrob]

Whichever path is taken, it leads to less jobs for the people of Dover and East Kent. As well as sending lorries via a longer route, pumping far more emissions into the atmosphere we share with all living beings.

It's that true ?

It's a genuine question as I don't know the comparison in carbon emissions between a slightly longer detour by boat and lots of lorries travelling direct. The particulate emissions will of course be s lot less of a problem out to sea.

As for the executive admitting to breaking employment law to parliament, there clearly needs to be a prosecution to make an example.

 

[jamesontheroad]

But it does contribute to the economy, through keeping ports in business and sustaining jobs?

Not significantly, but by shifting tens of thousands of trucks every week to those 40+ ferries bypassing the UK, it changes the economics of operating ferries to/from GB. There's just less traffic overall, so on top of the already visible drop in EU exports/imports, the costs of operating ferries to/from GB are going to be higher today than they were five years ago. We're going to see that in higher prices, and that's before you price in the effects of Covid and the current fossil fuel situation.

I don't buy P&O's arguments about not being viable, but I think we should all expect to pay higher ticket prices for GB/EU/RoI ferry travel because there's simply less traffic.

 

[brad465]

Is it sensible to laugh at this latest incident:

P&O Ferries ship detained over crew training concerns

It comes after 800 of the firm's staff were sacked and replaced with workers on cheaper wages.

www.bbc.co.uk

A P&O Ferries ship has been detained in Northern Ireland over safety concerns.
The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) said the European Causeway boat had been held in Larne over multiple issues.
The MCA said there had been "failures on crew familiarisation, vessel documentation and crew training".
Unions have raised concerns over a lack of experience of new crew, introduced after 800 of the firm's staff were sacked eight days ago.
P&O Ferries made them redundant with no notice, replacing them with workers paid less than the minimum wage.
Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said that the European Causeway was "unfit to sail".
He wrote on social media: "I will not compromise the safety of these vessels and P&O will not be able to rush inexperienced crew through training."
Earlier on Friday, Prime Minister Boris Johnson backed Mr Shapps' calls for the boss of P&O Ferries to resign. Peter Hebblethwaite admitted to MPs that he broke the law by not consulting workers ahead of the job cuts - but said he would do the same again if he had to.

The vessel, operated by P&O Ferries, will remain under detention until all issues are resolved by the firm, the MCA spokesperson added.
P&O Ferries advised customers on Twitter that its services remained suspended.
Referring to its route from Larne, it said: "It is no longer possible for us to arrange travel via an alternative operator on this route.
"For essential travel, customers are advised to seek alternatives themselves."
The general secretary of the RMT union, Mick Lynch, said that the seizing of the ferry suggests the firm are not "fit and proper to run a safe service after the jobs massacre".
He called for the sacked crews to be reinstated "to get these crucial ferry routes back running safely".
Maritime trade union Nautilus International said the importance of a well-trained crew "cannot be overstated".
General secretary Mark Dickinson said this was "even more the case" for an operator like P&O Ferries, which carries up to 2,000 passengers a day and follows extremely tight schedules along one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world.
"The consequences can be fatal when commercial pressure takes precedence over safety concerns in the ferry sector," he said.
P&O Ferries did not immediately respond to the BBC's request for comment.

 

[HSTEd]

But it does contribute to the economy, through keeping ports in business and sustaining jobs?

In return from minor benefits from some coffee sold or whatever, we have to pay the full cost of all the externaties such lorries cause.

Road wear, air pollution, congestion etc etc etc.

I shed no tears for the land bridge traffic.
The real question in the long run is if a ferry operator can really survive if Getlink decided to make any attempt to drive them out of the market.
They are not short of tunnel capacity so they just need more trains and possibly more loading platforms and not much could withstand them.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Is it sensible to laugh at this latest incident:

P&O Ferries ship detained over crew training concerns

It comes after 800 of the firm's staff were sacked and replaced with workers on cheaper wages.

www.bbc.co.uk

Yes.

The worst case scenario was obviously that unfamiliar staff who were rushed through training and familiarisation might go to sea and risk their lives and those of their passengers in some kind of avoidable accident.

This, however, is perfect for laughing at.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It appears Irish Ferries uses the agency model for ferry crews, and that they are undercutting the other ferry operators at Dover and Dublin.
Stena and DFDS don't use this model.
RMT wanted government action last year when Irish Ferries began operating out of Dover.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60876918

The RMT union wrote to the government saying it "appears either unable or unwilling to act" on Irish Ferries' low-cost labour model.
It's the same model P&O Ferries is now introducing after the sacking of 800 staff.
P&O Ferries replaced staff with agency workers paid less than the UK minimum wage.
Transport Secretary Grant Shapps told BBC News that he would be introducing new legislation next week that would mean P&O Ferries and Irish Ferries "will have to change their operating model".

 

[Typhoon]

The next chapter in the ongoing P&O Ferries scandal involves a photo coming to light that appears to show employees' belongings being discarded in waste bins.

The damning photograph, shared on Twitter by Nautilus International, showed belongings allegedly belonging to former crew members aboard the Pride of Kent being chucked away like rubbish.

This comes after reports that recently sacked crew members on the Pride of Hull have been unable to retrieve their own belongings from aboard the ship. Whether these items have also been discarded like those on the Pride of Kent is, as yet, unclear.

If this is true (the italics are mine), this shows a contempt for the former employees that negates any of the sympathy shown by the likes of Hebblethwaite have expressed. Presumably some of these items belonged to those who were not on the ship at the time or not in a position to retrieve them.
From https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/new...-ferries-throw-employees-belongings-6859763[/

 

[Towers]

If this is true (the italics are mine), this shows a contempt for the former employees that negates any of the sympathy shown by the likes of Hebblethwaite have expressed. Presumably some of these items belonged to those who were not on the ship at the time or not in a position to retrieve them.
From https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/new...-ferries-throw-employees-belongings-6859763[/

Hmm. Interestingly that page no longer appears to exist....

 

[Typhoon]

Hmm. Interestingly that page no longer appears to exist....

Interesting indeed, maybe my italics were more than warranted. It can still be seen at https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...f-job-cuts-scandal/ar-AAVuEkd?ocid=uxbndlbing as of 10:39 on 26/03/22 but may be worthless!

Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[Gloster]

Further problems for P&O, or its employees, according to the Financial Times (if I have understood the bit on the front page that appears on today’s The Papers page on the BBC’s site). P&O owes the Merchant Navy Ratings Pension Fund £146 million, which is secured against three ships. However, these ships may only be worth about one-third of that.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Further problems for P&O, or its employees, according to the Financial Times (if I have understood the bit on the front page that appears on today’s The Papers page on the BBC’s site). P&O owes the Merchant Navy Ratings Pension Fund £146 million, which is secured against three ships. However, these ships may only be worth about one-third of that.

I do find it extraordinary that firms who have pension contributions outstanding are allowed to pay dividends. If those with the power were worthy, this could be stopped overnight.

 

[Wolfie]

If this is true (the italics are mine), this shows a contempt for the former employees that negates any of the sympathy shown by the likes of Hebblethwaite have expressed. Presumably some of these items belonged to those who were not on the ship at the time or not in a position to retrieve them.
From https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/new...-ferries-throw-employees-belongings-6859763[/

If true it also opens up P&O to lots of civil actions for the cost of the discarded belongings. I really hope that happens. Vile behaviour from a vile company.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If true it also opens up P&O to lots of civil actions for the cost of the discarded belongings. I really hope that happens. Vile behaviour from a vile company.

I would also be concerned about the fire risk that piling all that flammable stuff up on the car deck might pose.

 

[Tetchytyke]

P&O owes the Merchant Navy Ratings Pension Fund £146 million

It does because it hasn't paid the bills.

DP World managed to find £147m the same month to sponsor some men hitting a ball with a stick.

Redirect Notice

 

[notverydeep]

P&O Cruises have been advertising on Youtube with much of the advert attempting to make it clear they are part of Carnival and not the same company as the ferries and to implicitly distance themselves from the actions of the ferry company. I would link this, but it isn't available on their youtube channel directly.

While they are clearly miffed about what has been going on. It doesn't contain direct criticsm (though I imagine there are probably lawyers involved). I am not sure how different their own employment terms around the world would be...

 

[Wolfie]

P&O Cruises have been advertising on Youtube with much of the advert attempting to make it clear they are part of Carnival and not the same company as the ferries and to implicitly distance themselves from the actions of the ferry company. I would link this, but it isn't available on their youtube channel directly.

While they are clearly miffed about what has been going on. It doesn't contain direct criticsm (though I imagine there are probably lawyers involved). I am not sure how different their own employment terms around the world would be...

They've been running newspaper adverts too.

 

[maniacmartin]

P&O Ferries sackings: Ferry operators face minimum wage law change

Ministers plan to force all ferry companies operating from UK ports to pay at least the National Minimum Wage, in a bid to persuade P&O Ferries to reinstate 800 workers it has sacked.
Legislation will be introduced in the Commons later this week.
(...)

Minimum wage isn't necessarily the same as their previous salaries of course, but if this legislation passes, it would remove a lot of incentive to use the agency staff

 

[Bletchleyite]

P&O Ferries sackings: Ferry operators face minimum wage law change


Minimum wage isn't necessarily the same as their previous salaries of course, but if this legislation passes, it would remove a lot of incentive to use the agency staff

Given how railway staff are highly paid for the sort of jobs they do, whereas ferry staff very low paid, I think they need better unions

That aside, I wonder what the effect on ferries of railway levels of pay would be? Captain only operation* and a lot of automation, I guess? You can only "staff high" in the way ships do if people are cheap.

* Not really, but far fewer crew.

 

[Simon11]

Given how railway staff are highly paid for the sort of jobs they do, whereas ferry staff very low paid, I think they need better unions

A lot of ferry staff are with the RMT union, the same union that covers a lot of roles in the rail industry too.... Are you suggesting that RMT isn't a good union?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A lot of ferry staff are with the RMT union, the same union that covers a lot of roles in the rail industry too.... Are you suggesting that RMT isn't a good union?

Not all of them are. Probably enough aren't to blunt their abilities.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'd like to know what EU law says about domestic pay rates for seafarers, eg to the Mediterranean islands or across the Baltic.
Until 2020 we were inside that regime, and I don't know if anything has changed since Brexit.
It would be indeed curious if a Tory government demanded better employment law than that of the EU, seeing as "Brussels over-regulation" was one of its clarion calls with Brexit.
Whatever the rules were, it did not stop repeated industrial action on French ships (eg Sea France, now DFDS).

 

[rvdborgt]

Hmm. Interestingly that page no longer appears to exist....

There were some superfluous characters at the end of the URL. This should work:

P&O Ferries 'throw employees' belongings in the bin'

Employees' belongings on the Pride of Kent were seen discarded in waste bins

www.hulldailymail.co.uk

 

[43096]

A lot of ferry staff are with the RMT union, the same union that covers a lot of roles in the rail industry too.... Are you suggesting that RMT isn't a good union?

It’s not done the P&O Ferries staff any favours being RMT members. The management concluded the RMT would never negotiate; probably rightly.

 

[island]

It’s not done the P&O Ferries staff any favours being RMT members. The management concluded the RMT would never negotiate; probably rightly.

Yes, I agree. The outcome of attempting to negotiate would have been an all-out strike and sit-in, possible injunctions, and weeks if not months of brand and service disruption. The outcome for the staff would have been at best the same, namely a payoff, but it could have driven the company under.

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes, I agree. The outcome of attempting to negotiate would have been an all-out strike and sit-in, possible injunctions, and weeks if not months of brand and service disruption. The outcome for the staff would have been at best the same, namely a payoff, but it could have driven the company under.

The outcome for staff would probably have been weeks of no pay while on strike and statutory minimum redundancy payments. P&O Ferries are offering a much more generous deal, which I'm sure they thought would be accepted by most.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The outcome for staff would probably have been weeks of no pay while on strike and statutory minimum redundancy payments. P&O Ferries are offering a much more generous deal, which I'm sure they thought would be accepted by most.

Did they offer that deal originally? I had the impression it was only offered once they discovered the legally dubious nature of what they had done.

 

[Dai Corner]

Did they offer that deal originally? I had the impression it was only offered once they discovered the legally dubious nature of what they had done.

I don't think the deal has changed.