TfW Overcrowding

[craigybagel]

Indeed, which is essentially what I said isn't it. Surely a sensible service to overform on a day such as today too. OK, it may not be perfect - from a capacity perspective, it would be better to just use a two car 150 on the branch and have no through workings at all. But who is going to unpick a whole load of diagrams for the sake of one day? And of course, withdrawing all of the through services would attract lots of negative stakeholder attention.

Oh I agree with you - I just thought it would help to have it set out clearly what the current arrangement is, and to point out that today's 3 car wasn't booked (though as you say, today was probably a good day to use a 3 car if one was available!)

Yes, this appears to be what the TFW staff on here want you to think still happens, and ignore that Llandudno - Manchester has been two or three trains a day at most for a long time now.

I don't understand why they're so defensive. I've worked for many companies and public sector organisations I thought were giving a rubbish service, why they seem to take it personally is puzzling.

Not taking anything personally, I just think the viewers of this forum deserve some accurate information that where possible provides explanations for the reasons certain decisions are made. Most people seem to appreciate it.....

 

[anthony263]

According to a article in the latest modern railways instead of one in every 3 Manchester to South Wales services being loco hauled they considering one in every 2 services as they plan on turning them round at Cardiff with a unit going forward from Cardiff to Swansea and west wales apart from one loco hauled service a day running to/ from Swansea

 

[Jez]

Correct me if im wrong but i think Milford/Carmarthen to Manchester requires 12 diagrams (5 hour journey to Carmarthen, 6 hours to Milford Haven plus the turnaround times) well today 4 of these were a combination of 150s and 153s. So that leaves 8 175s. With what is required in North Wales, Cardiff-Holyhead and Chester-Liverpool (some of which are also 158s and 153s) it seems far less than 23 (out of 27) 175s are available each day. Is the overcrowding down to issues with the 175s and having to use more sprinters (often 2 cars). Are a lot more than 4 a day out of service for maintenance and repairs.

According to a article in the latest modern railways instead of one in every 3 Manchester to South Wales services being loco hauled they considering one in every 2 services as they plan on turning them round at Cardiff with a unit going forward from Cardiff to Swansea and west wales apart from one loco hauled service a day running to/ from Swansea

Well thats different to what was originally said. I was under the impression every 2 hours would be Swansea-Manchester with the other hour going to Milford.

 

[Starmill]

Oh I agree with you - I just thought it would help to have it set out clearly what the current arrangement is, and to point out that today's 3 car wasn't booked (though as you say, today was probably a good day to use a 3 car if one was available!)

I just find it very frustrating that a number of amendments have obviously been made to try to provision capacity in the best possible way, and yet people complain about it. By all means complain that overall rolling stock allocation is still too little, because it is. But it's not nothing, and I don't see the evidence that it's incompetent.

 

[seagull]

Perhaps TFW are planning more non-stop services, another great one to see was a 197 eastbound fast through Rhyl with no warning on the PIS. There were a couple of youth idiots sat on the platform edge. Thankfully got up in time. Not condoning that of course.

Given that the 197s are not yet in public service and simply accumulating mileage on test, not sure how that warrants criticism though?

 

[Caaardiff]

Correct me if im wrong but i think Milford/Carmarthen to Manchester requires 12 diagrams (5 hour journey to Carmarthen, 6 hours to Milford Haven plus the turnaround times) well today 4 of these were a combination of 150s and 153s. So that leaves 8 175s. With what is required in North Wales, Cardiff-Holyhead and Chester-Liverpool (some of which are also 158s and 153s) it seems far less than 23 (out of 27) 175s are available each day. Is the overcrowding down to issues with the 175s and having to use more sprinters (often 2 cars). Are a lot more than 4 a day out of service for maintenance and repairs.


Well thats different to what was originally said. I was under the impression every 2 hours would be Swansea-Manchester with the other hour going to Milford.

From what i'm told, exactly that. Yesterday a couple of 175's were taken out of service after hitting debris/animals and also a fatality in North Wales.

There's a lot of grumbling on here, but just to be very clear, ALL South Wales - Manchester trains are booked to be 175's. There's one or too early and late services along the marches that are 150/158 but I don't think they go as far as Manchester.

TfW have an ageing fleet and are also short of sufficient units at the best of times. There seems to be good days and bad days. A few issues with any of the fleet and it just throws things. They also have quite a mixed fleet and from what i've seen over the years it tends to be the 153's and 150's that sub for 158 and 175 issues.

I suspect advances have a miniscule effect on TFW's overcrowding given the random pairs of stations they're available for, that in many cases the saving isn't worth buying a restricted ticket for, and other TFW ticketing nonsense like day returns being available for longer journeys where only a period return is available for shorter journeys on exactly the same route.

It is, I'm afraid, just incompetence. Today's Llandudno shuttle is of course a 3 car 175. And I know saying that will as usual result in me being berated by TFW staff. I'm only noting the pattern I see.

Bit harsh given that the 3 cars work along the coast to get to Llandudno. It may be a waste (in your opinion) for a few hours shuttling, but those 175's go back to Chester at some point to work to Manchester. It's bank holiday weekend and school term. There's huge demand for North Wales over this weekend for people going on holiday and also returning home, so it may not warrant a 3 car to Llandudno but it certainly warrants 3 car to or from Chester.

Are Avanti back to up full service in North Wales yet? Weren't they cancelling services over the weekend? That's a bulk of a Voyager load of passengers trying to squeeze onto the already busy TfW services. If demand is that high, why isn't anyone campaigning (or complaining) for Avanti to increase it's services? Same with the marches, i hadn't even realised Cross Country weren't running Manchester - Bristol anymore. Options are change at Birmingham or Newport.

Absolutely. But someone will be along shortly to tell us how that's impossible, despite TFW regularly running to Crewe direct for the past two years. Small steps though, let's let them actually run through Chester more than a couple of times a day first.

I'm sorry for being so scathing, but they do seem to be one one of the TOCs least willing to even attempt to return to normal.

Portion working will be to Liverpool AND Manchester in the future. Manchester needs a direct North Wales service as much as to Crewe. TfW are the only operator Manchester - North Wales. Avanti operate towards Crewe with TfW's shuttle complimenting it. You can't run to Liverpool, Manchester and Crewe off the North Wales services.

Yes, this appears to be what the TFW staff on here want you to think still happens, and ignore that Llandudno - Manchester has been two or three trains a day at most for a long time now.

I don't understand why they're so defensive. I've worked for many companies and public sector organisations I thought were giving a rubbish service, why they seem to take it personally is puzzling.

Only since Covid. There's a shortage of train crew, some have left, many are on training, covid sickness is still linguring (Not just in TfW, across the whole railway) It may have also been mentioned once or twice before, but TfW have a shortage of stock to be able to go back to full timetable. Spend time reading through the TfW forums and there'll be many an explanation as to what is going on.

I won't deny that TfW's offering is somewhat dire lately, but at the same time there's many factors as to why, and explanations as to how their hands are tied.

 

[wobman]

Given that the 197s are not yet in public service and simply accumulating mileage on test, not sure how that warrants criticism though?

At least tfw can't get the blame for the mileage accumulation and testing as its caf units with freightliner drivers, none of the 197s are in the hands of tfw yet, tfw drivers are only on them for training traincrew.

Network rail should show and announce on the Pis screens the service in a non stopping one, tfw don't control the screens at Rhyl.

It is baffling as you say how tfw get criticism for everything

 

[mmh]

It's not wise posting things like this on a forum, it can encourage people to copy these very unsafe actions

I worded that poorly. The guard opened the doors, not the passengers. I was a passenger on board wondering if they could actually make it to do local door release and trying to reassure others this was normal and to stay put. Then, "ah, here they are!" - external door release. Sensible, practical solution. They should be praised.

Given that the 197s are not yet in public service and simply accumulating mileage on test, not sure how that warrants criticism though?

What, one that nearly resulted in an accident and did result in a 999 call shouldn't be commented on?

 

[craigybagel]

According to a article in the latest modern railways instead of one in every 3 Manchester to South Wales services being loco hauled they considering one in every 2 services as they plan on turning them round at Cardiff with a unit going forward from Cardiff to Swansea and west wales apart from one loco hauled service a day running to/ from Swansea

Well thats different to what was originally said. I was under the impression every 2 hours would be Swansea-Manchester with the other hour going to Milford.

The plans keep on changing, but fee of the exact details have ever been released so it's hard to say what was and wasn't exactly planned. Originally there weren't meant to be any locos on Manchester services after all.

2 hourly Manchester - Cardiff is about the limit of what can be achieved with the current planned MKIV fleet. When combined with the Cardiff - Holyhead service it would require 6 out of 7 sets in service each day. An extension to Swansea would only be possible in the shoulders of the diagrams.

When Manchester locos are first announced, every 3 hours was talked about, but that wouldn't fit with alternating Swansea & Milford Haven services. That said, even every 2 hours is complicated as with the present diagrams services arriving in Manchester from Milford return to Carmarthen and vice versa - the 2 hourly pattern to Milford doesn't fit with captive diagrams.

Whatever happens some big changes are going to be required - both over the current situation and what was originally announced at the start of the franchise. For now we can only speculate as to what they might be.

Correct me if im wrong but i think Milford/Carmarthen to Manchester requires 12 diagrams (5 hour journey to Carmarthen, 6 hours to Milford Haven plus the turnaround times) well today 4 of these were a combination of 150s and 153s. So that leaves 8 175s. With what is required in North Wales, Cardiff-Holyhead and Chester-Liverpool (some of which are also 158s and 153s) it seems far less than 23 (out of 27) 175s are available each day. Is the overcrowding down to issues with the 175s and having to use more sprinters (often 2 cars). Are a lot more than 4 a day out of service for maintenance and repairs.

At least one 175 failed in service today which won't have helped. I'm not aware of any particular shortage at the moment but the entire TfW fleet is being worked as hard as possible to cope just with the day to day service

I just find it very frustrating that a number of amendments have obviously been made to try to provision capacity in the best possible way, and yet people complain about it. By all means complain that overall rolling stock allocation is still too little, because it is. But it's not nothing, and I don't see the evidence that it's incompetent.

Oh very frustrating indeed. There are many reasons for the struggles with overcrowding on TfW - but incompetence today is not one of them. I'm sure the staff are as frustrated as the passengers are (and I myself found myself standing on an overcrowded train today when whilst on duty) but suggestions of incompetence are neither helpful nor welcome, especially when there are much simpler reasons for what's going on.

 

[Jez]

The plans keep on changing, but fee of the exact details have ever been released so it's hard to say what was and wasn't exactly planned. Originally there weren't meant to be any locos on Manchester services after all.

2 hourly Manchester - Cardiff is about the limit of what can be achieved with the current planned MKIV fleet. When combined with the Cardiff - Holyhead service it would require 6 out of 7 sets in service each day. An extension to Swansea would only be possible in the shoulders of the diagrams.

When Manchester locos are first announced, every 3 hours was talked about, but that wouldn't fit with alternating Swansea & Milford Haven services. That said, even every 2 hours is complicated as with the present diagrams services arriving in Manchester from Milford return to Carmarthen and vice versa - the 2 hourly pattern to Milford doesn't fit with captive diagrams.

Whatever happens some big changes are going to be required - both over the current situation and what was originally announced at the start of the franchise. For now we can only speculate as to what they might be.

At least one 175 failed in service today which won't have helped. I'm not aware of any particular shortage at the moment but the entire TfW fleet is being worked as hard as possible to cope just with the day to day service


Oh very frustrating indeed. There are many reasons for the struggles with overcrowding on TfW - but incompetence today is not one of them. I'm sure the staff are as frustrated as the passengers are (and I myself found myself standing on an overcrowded train today when whilst on duty) but suggestions of incompetence are neither helpful nor welcome, especially when there are much simpler reasons for what's going on.

I do hope that whatever happens some Manchester services still run through to at least Swansea if not Carmarthen/Milford. Its surprising how many people do use it as a through service not just from Manchester but other stations on the line such as Crewe and Hereford. Even though the majority of people leave the train at Newport or Cardiff. Perhaps one train per hour Manchester to Cardiff the other hour to Carmarthen. Then a 2 hourly Cardiff- Milford could operate. As you say its all speculation at the moment.

I wondered if there were any issues with the 175s as despite being booked for all weekday South Wales to Manchester there seems to be at least 1 every single day that is replaced with a 150 or pair of 153s. It used to be an occasional thing before with a 158 replacing a 175 but now its a daily thing. Some days more than 1 diagram and as we saw today 4 were replaced. But as we know its doesnt take many incidents or failures for them to start to run into problems. Its a pity the 170s arent able to go anywhere other than Maesteg/Cheltenham/Ebbw Vale they would be far more suitable than a 150 on longer distance routes.

 

[craigybagel]

I do hope that whatever happens some Manchester services still run through to at least Swansea if not Carmarthen/Milford. Its surprising how many people do use it as a through service not just from Manchester but other stations on the line such as Crewe and Hereford. Even though the majority of people leave the train at Newport or Cardiff. Perhaps one train per hour Manchester to Cardiff the other hour to Carmarthen. Then a 2 hourly Cardiff- Milford could operate. As you say its all speculation at the moment.

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some degree of through working between the Marches and Swansea/West Wales. Even aside from the market for such a service (which you correctly point out does exist) there are also operational benefits - Cardiff Central is not a great station to terminate lots of services at, especially to and from the West. Through running helps with capacity and utilisation.

One possible solution could be for the hourly alternating Holyhead & Liverpool service to run through to West Wales and have the Manchester service terminate at Cardiff, the opposite of what happens now. I've not sat down to do the maths to see if the timings would work out however.

Its a pity the 170s arent able to go anywhere other than Maesteg/Cheltenham/Ebbw Vale they would be far more suitable than a 150 on longer distance routes.

Very true. It's a little frustrating seeing 150s and 153s on long distance services whilst the 170s trundle up and down around Cardiff - but with their limited life at TfW there just isn't any point clearing them for more routes or carrying out the required training.

 

[Sheridan]

The evening Cardiff - Holyhead Mk4. Not scheduled to stop, I believe, between Chester and Rhyl. Last week it didn't stop at Colwyn Bay, fast to Llandudno Junction.

Perhaps TFW are planning more non-stop services, another great one to see was a 197 eastbound fast through Rhyl with no warning on the PIS. There were a couple of youth idiots sat on the platform edge. Thankfully got up in time. Not condoning that of course.

Okay, I’m not sure I would describe missing two stops as ‘non-stop’ but there’s an all stations stopper 32 minutes behind it. The Avanti service between the MK4s and the stopper also misses those two stops, interestingly. I would’ve thought they could stop at Flint and Prestatyn without delaying the stopper but timetable planning is sometimes quite opaque!

 

[Runningaround]

I do hope that whatever happens some Manchester services still run through to at least Swansea if not Carmarthen/Milford. Its surprising how many people do use it as a through service not just from Manchester but other stations on the line such as Crewe and Hereford. Even though the majority of people leave the train at Newport or Cardiff. Perhaps one train per hour Manchester to Cardiff the other hour to Carmarthen. Then a 2 hourly Cardiff- Milford could operate. As you say its all speculation at the moment.

I wondered if there were any issues with the 175s as despite being booked for all weekday South Wales to Manchester there seems to be at least 1 every single day that is replaced with a 150 or pair of 153s. It used to be an occasional thing before with a 158 replacing a 175 but now its a daily thing. Some days more than 1 diagram and as we saw today 4 were replaced. But as we know its doesnt take many incidents or failures for them to start to run into problems. Its a pity the 170s arent able to go anywhere other than Maesteg/Cheltenham/Ebbw Vale they would be far more suitable than a 150 on longer distance routes.

WMT run them to Birmingham so it wouldn't take much for TFW to do so as well

 

[Caaardiff]

WMT run them to Birmingham so it wouldn't take much for TFW to do so as well

What about all the train crew that would need to be trained on them? Only Cardiff Drivers sign them.

Birmingham services run to Holyhead and Aberystwyth. So you'd need to train Shrewsbury, Chester, Llandudno Jn, Holyhead and Machynlleth train crew Depots, as well as getting them cleared along both of those routes and having ERTM's fitted.
Only Canton can maintain them, so you'd need maintenance provision at Holyhead and Machynlleth.

That I would say "would take much".

 

[seagull]

What, one that nearly resulted in an accident and did result in a 999 call shouldn't be commented on?

Well, as it could have been any train by any operator at all, and the only fault ultimately lay with the people trespassing over the platform edge, then I think my comment remains valid.

 

[wobman]

WMT run them to Birmingham so it wouldn't take much for TFW to do so as well

170s are not with tfw for long until the stadler and caf units come into service, plus tfw depots have huge amounts of traction training and new traincrew training ongoing. So adding 170 traction training to all of this for such a short time in service is not worth the effort.

 

[Runningaround]

170s are not with tfw for long until the stadler and caf units come into service, plus tfw depots have huge amounts of traction training and new traincrew training ongoing. So adding 170 traction training to all of this for such a short time in service is not worth the effort.

That's the impression many have had for decades

 

[Bikeman78]

I think it was, yes - still, the Pacers were only ever used in the South Wales Valley Lines.
These routes are much less susceptible to overcrowding, even at peak and off-peak times.

The Pacers frequently ran on the main line. In the first three months of 2020 they covered every route in the south as far north as Hereford. One even made it halfway up the heart of Wales line.

 

[wobman]

That's the impression many have had for decades

I didn't think much detail was required as previous posters have covered this subject, but is it worth diverting resources on 170s to get traincrew trained on them for a limited time span in service?

Tfw needs it traincrew in the North trained on the Mk4s at crewe and Holyhead, then all other depots on 197s. In the south it's stadler units, this is at the same time training huge amounts of new trainee traincrew.

So does Adding 170 training to this mix make sence ??

 

[wobman]

The Pacers frequently ran on the main line. In the first three months of 2020 they covered every route in the south as far north as Hereford. One even made it halfway up the heart of Wales line.

When was the last time a pacer was on the main line ? Its just I've only ever seen them on the Valleys

 

[Andy Pacer]

The Pacers frequently ran on the main line. In the first three months of 2020 they covered every route in the south as far north as Hereford. One even made it halfway up the heart of Wales line.

Agreed. In their last few months I travelled on 142s to Pembroke Dock as well as Cheltenham Spa.

 

[Anonymous10]

Agreed. In their last few months I travelled on 142s to Pembroke Dock as well as Cheltenham Spa.

throughout 2018 and 2019 i travelled on them to Pembroke dock indeed nearly every service through the winter of 2019-2020 was pacer units

 

[Jez]

When was the last time a pacer was on the main line ? Its just I've only ever seen them on the Valleys

January to March 2020 there was one regularly on the first Cardiff to MIlford at 05xx and return to Cardiff. At the time this service didn't go to Manchester and there was a separate Cardiff-Manchester. They were also used on the Fishguard boat train (daytime) and Pembroke Docks. Basically anything in the South Wales Mainline that wasn't going to Manchester a pacer was likely to turn up on to free up 150s for the Valleys.

 

[Andy Pacer]

January to March 2020 there was one regularly on the first Cardiff to MIlford at 05xx and return to Cardiff. At the time this service didn't go to Manchester and there was a separate Cardiff-Manchester. They were also used on the Fishguard boat train (daytime) and Pembroke Docks. Basically anything in the South Wales Mainline that wasn't going to Manchester a pacer was likely to turn up on to free up 150s for the Valleys.

Just had a look through my records, it was 03/08/19 when I had 142010 on the 0545 Swansea to Pembroke Dock, but evidently they were still active after that, presumably until the Pandemic saw reductions in service.

 

[Runningaround]

I didn't think much detail was required as previous posters have covered this subject, but is it worth diverting resources on 170s to get traincrew trained on them for a limited time span in service?

Tfw needs it traincrew in the North trained on the Mk4s at crewe and Holyhead, then all other depots on 197s. In the south it's stadler units, this is at the same time training huge amounts of new trainee traincrew.

So does Adding 170 training to this mix make sence ??

TFW were going to use them on the HOW line, the units have worked many runs from Shrewsbury during Central Trains days, including Aberystwyth, we already know they can run to Birmingham where there is still maintenance facilities, there will even be staff with some knowledge of them at Shrewsbury as they would have driven them then, seems like a perfect stop gap. And are they different to drive than a 175? If any unit should be passed on I cannot think of a more reasonable unit t

 

[wobman]

TFW were going to use them on the HOW line, the units have worked many runs from Shrewsbury during Central Trains days, including Aberystwyth, we already know they can run to Birmingham where there is still maintenance facilities, there will even be staff with some knowledge of them at Shrewsbury as they would have driven them then, seems like a perfect stop gap. And are they different to drive than a 175? If any unit should be passed on I cannot think of a more reasonable unit t

The whole of tfws Shrewsbury and crewe traincrew depots will need training on them, that will take months of training and service cancellations.
That was just One of the reasons the 170 plan on the HOW line was cancelled, the 170s would have to rotate back to Canton regularly and finding qualified traincrew to do that would be very problematic. The 170s introduction looked easy on paper but the practicality of it has proven very complicated for tfw, that's one reason tfw want them gone aswell as the previous reasons mentioned.

Having them maintained by WMT would be complicated and expensive, plus the DFT are taking the 170s off tfw now.

Don't worry the lovely 153s are here to stay on the HOW line though.....

 

[LowLevel]

It's not wise posting things like this on a forum, it can encourage people to copy these very unsafe actions

Releasing each door independently on Sprinters has been part of our company specific instructions elsewhere for years, it's at the guard's discretion whether they open one door or go down to do all of them - though you are meant to start with the front one where possible.

 

[wobman]

Releasing each door independently on Sprinters has been part of our company specific instructions elsewhere for years, it's at the guard's discretion whether they open one door or go down to do all of them - though you are meant to start with the front one where possible.

That was an instruction for Helsby that lots of guards refused to work in that way, many guards stuck to just local door operation for 1 big reason.
Opening doors for passengers using the external butterfly is very unsafe, it displays a method of opening a door on a train that the guard has no control over if that method gets used to gain entry on a moving trains......

 

[craigybagel]

TFW were going to use them on the HOW line, the units have worked many runs from Shrewsbury during Central Trains days, including Aberystwyth, we already know they can run to Birmingham where there is still maintenance facilities, there will even be staff with some knowledge of them at Shrewsbury as they would have driven them then, seems like a perfect stop gap. And are they different to drive than a 175? If any unit should be passed on I cannot think of a more reasonable unit t

To the best of my knowledge there's nobody left at Shrewsbury TFW who's ever driven a 170. When they worked the Cambrian it was under Central Trains, and what was the Central Trains depot at Shrewsbury is now operated by WMR (who do of course still sign 170s). The TfW depot was started from scratch almost entirely with new hires.

It is true that they were originally planned to work the HOWL and Shrewsbury - Crewe, and Carmarthen, Shrewsbury and Crewe crews were expected to be trained on them. Instead a small amount of 153s are being kept for those routes and the extra MKIVs will work the other planned 170 routes in West Wales, thus meaning they're no longer required and there's no point carrying out further training or route clearance.

 

[LowLevel]

To the best of my knowledge there's nobody left at Shrewsbury TFW who's ever driven a 170. When they worked the Cambrian it was under Central Trains, and what was the Central Trains depot at Shrewsbury is now operated by WMR (who do of course still sign 170s). The TfW depot was started from scratch almost entirely with new hires.

It is true that they were originally planned to work the HOWL and Shrewsbury - Crewe, and Carmarthen, Shrewsbury and Crewe crews were expected to be trained on them. Instead a small amount of 153s are being kept for those routes and the extra MKIVs will work the other planned 170 routes in West Wales, thus meaning they're no longer required and there's no point carrying out further training or route clearance.

I think there was only a comparatively short couple of years window of 170s before the Central depot at Shrewsbury was broken up anyway - they didn't particularly like the slogs along the Mid Wales mainline - that being said in that era neither did the 158s!

The 170s are staying around a bit longer in Wales now but they're now planned to depart from January next year onwards which means it seems there's little mileage in moving them.