Rail strikes discussion

[DMckduck]

When this current government was elected, it was blatantly obvious that they wanted to pick a battle with rail unions. I thought the battle would be over DOO/DCO but ultimately it's come down to pay/T&C's/job security.

In the past two and a half years, I should think most staff, barring a personal crisis like a divorce/bereavement/illness should have been able to save more than enough to cover the loss of a few days pay. I've been saving ever since I started as a trainee.

As someone in the driving grade, what really gets on my wick is drivers (mainly younger ones in my age group) blow their income on vanity/lifestyle products and complain they can't afford to strike or even take part in a rest day ban.

The government's position is an ideological one, they have a track record of profligate financial waste:
£5bn on COVID loan fraud.
£16bn on COVID loan defaults.
£11bn because the chancellor couldn't be bothered to fix the interest rate on our national debt.
20% of COVID procurement contracts have red flags for alleged corruption.

I've got around 35 years left before I can claim a full railway pension. Loads of other professions have been shafted over the past three decades or so because their ranks failed to organise against degradation of their conditions of employment. I don't want some of the last well-paid working-class trades which offer genuine social mobility to become the latest in a long line of careers which offer vastly reduced circumstances to the next generation.

Absoutlely spot on, but that’s where the MM and the gov have been smart about this. Pushing the idea that withdrawing labour is seen as bad just because the majority of the workforce are in a position where they can’t do it because many generations previous let them get away with it whilst eroding T&Cs

 

[dctraindriver]

For every day of strike action I’m going to lose two days worth of pay, as my partner works on the railway too. We have a mortgage and a child to think about, as well as various other bills and debts.

And ‘when a pay award is won’ is not certain in the slightest. I would be astonished if a pay award is forthcoming. Where is the incentive from HMG to give rail staff a payrise? Remember, they are saving money on every day that trains don’t run.

What’s more, I don’t want a payrise. I want to come to work and work hard and go home at the end of the day and not worry about things, and I’m quite happy to continue doing that on my current salary. @driverd puts it better than me.

I think it proves here that as you’re on over 60k and your partner is on a fairly decent wage and you’re contemplating leaving the union as you’re skint suggests the importance of fighting for a decent salary and T&Cs. You state you don’t want a pay rise, is your partner of the same opinion? Keep thinking like that and your above average salary will within the decade be average at best. They will come after us, they will weaken your opportunity to provide a good future for your child. They will want to change the pension. If you’ve years to go until retirement why would you need to worry about that? Believe you me time flies and it won’t be long before you’re contemplating retirement. They don’t care about you. Just look at what they’ve done to nurses, police and fire since 2010. Easy targets, and now they’re gunning for us.

 

[Editrain2]

After days of deliberating I have decided that I will go ahead and strike with my colleagues after what I said previously.

Luckily I’ve managed to get shifts with mates company’s to top up my wage.

I genuinely feel sorry for people that are in this predicament.

If it wasn’t for my friend I would’ve had to go to work.

 

[43066]

I think it proves here that as you’re on over 60k and your partner is on a fairly decent wage and you’re contemplating leaving the union as you’re skint suggests the importance of fighting for a decent salary and T&Cs. You state you don’t want a pay rise, is your partner of the same opinion? Keep thinking like that and your above average salary will within the decade be average at best. They will come after us, they will weaken your opportunity to provide a good future for your child. They will want to change the pension. If you’ve years to go until retirement why would you need to worry about that? Believe you me time flies and it won’t be long before you’re contemplating retirement. They don’t care about you. Just look at what they’ve done to nurses, police and fire since 2010. Easy targets, and now they’re gunning for us.

Well said.

After days of deliberating I have decided that I will go ahead and strike with my colleagues after what I said previously.

Luckily I’ve managed to get shifts with mates company’s to top up my wage.

I genuinely feel sorry for people that are in this predicament.

If it wasn’t for my friend I would’ve had to go to work.

I think that’s a very sensible call. I also feel very sorry for people in your position - speak to your rep to see if there’s any assistance available?

Long term you might well be in a position to increase your earnings if you progress on the railway, so look at it as an investment?

 

[LowLevel]

Yes, Hedley's gone. Good riddance.

Hedley was a very shrewd negotiator and I think you'd be surprised at how well respected he was generally, including from the management side.

His politics may not be for everyone and he certainly uses making a big show as a tactic (no such thing as bad publicity, or is there?) but for example I can assure you he was instrumental in sorting out the recent EMR guards disputes that in some cases were more than 10 years worth of festering issues.

Far more in the Crow camp of making a huge song and dance whilst actually working hard to get a sensible result than you might realise and extremely hands on.

I have little time for the senior officials of the RMT but as a trade union official I found him to be very effective.

 

[Mintona]

Well you can consider yourself very lucky that you comfortable on your present salary. Maybe just maybe I have children, bills, debts , huge mortgage, transport costs etc too. And its getting increasingly UNCOMFORTABLE. I'm very pleased that you have a great little life but the sad reality is so many haven't, especially none driving roles. Just because you are OK doesn't mean everyone else can afford to carry on with these real terms pay cuts....

I’m most certainly not ok. Three days of strike action in a pay period (six days in total for us) will leave us unable to pay bills. We can survive on a flat month but generally do quite a bit of overtime to be able to enjoy life a bit. With a likely rest day ban and strikes I don’t see what I’m going to be able to do.

How many years will you be willing to go without anything but a token pay rise or no pay rise at all? If you're not looking for pay rises at times of 10%+ inflation, when would you?

The parameters by which the Tories will consider the railway to have financially 'recovered' sufficiently for a worthwhile pay rise to be offered benevolently will probably never be met.

Essentially, if not in the short term, how much are you willing to lose in the long term?

I’ve never asked for a payrise in my life, I’m not working differently so I don’t see why I should get one. If I want a payrise I could always apply for a job with more responsibility.

Also I suspect you shouldn't need to worry too much about a driver strike happening as our grade is more and more afflicted by Boris loving Tory types more worried about the few hundred refugees entering the country per year than worrying about the man on the streets wages or plight. I strongly suspect drivers will vote no to strikes....

The number of tories in the messroom always saddens me. I strongly suspect you’re wrong though. I have spoken to a number of drivers who say they will be voting no, but they pale in comparison to the number who say they’ll be voting yes.

As someone in the driving grade, what really gets on my wick is drivers (mainly younger ones in my age group) blow their income on vanity/lifestyle products and complain they can't afford to strike or even take part in a rest day ban.

People in ‘spending money they earn on things they want’ shocker!

I think it proves here that as you’re on over 60k and your partner is on a fairly decent wage and you’re contemplating leaving the union as you’re skint suggests the importance of fighting for a decent salary and T&Cs. You state you don’t want a pay rise, is your partner of the same opinion? Keep thinking like that and your above average salary will within the decade be average at best. They will come after us, they will weaken your opportunity to provide a good future for your child. They will want to change the pension. If you’ve years to go until retirement why would you need to worry about that? Believe you me time flies and it won’t be long before you’re contemplating retirement. They don’t care about you. Just look at what they’ve done to nurses, police and fire since 2010. Easy targets, and now they’re gunning for us.

So look at what they have done to nurses, police and fire. Were any of them able to fight off the changes? Or is it the case that once ‘they’ gun for you you’ve had it either way? My partner is also voting no in these ballots, yes. Pension changes I won’t understand because I’ve never understood pensions so I’ll just shrug at that.

Personally I think this is a ruse. A few strikes like this will hurt everyone’s pockets and eventually the government will take the opportunity to make good on its manifesto promise regarding the rail unions.

As a result, when it really matters (when GBR is created at some point in the next two years) the unions will have had their fangs drawn to some extent, and the opportunity for a fire and rehire policy will have been created.

This is where it’s going. The union should be keeping their powder dry for now so they still have some teeth left when the real changes happen.

Despite everything I have posted above, when it comes to it I’ll probably be on strike with the rest. I’m not going to screw over my colleagues. I’ll just be pleading to the bank for a payment holiday in the background too. This is causing me so much stress and worry that I’m awake posting this at 05.15 this morning when I don’t book on til 17.30 this evening.

 

[Towers]

@Mintona I'm genuinely sorry that you find yourself in that position. This is the reality of shouting strike in the middle of a cost of living crisis. Alright for some, less so for others. But of course, for the messroom bullies that just doesn't matter. Anyone who can't manage the financial sacrifice will be a "scab" regardless.

Next year would have made an awful lot more sense for all of this; let folk get through this winter on the wages that they know they'll earn, let the industry enjoy a decent summer, make it clear well in advance that something will be expected next year.

 

[Gems]

What saddens me most is the fact that a very large percentage of the railway messrooms voted Tory. I can't get my head around that at all.
I dropped out of the RMT years ago because of a point of view that irritated the life out of me. That was their stance on Brexit. To me it was an act of self harm. We as an industry had more to fear from Tories like Reece-Mogg, and Pritti Useless, than we ever had from the EU. Yet the line was peddled that the EU was the enemy of the railway. Jeremy Corbyn warned of a bonfire of workers rights if we left, and it sickened me knowing he was right, and yet there was no reasoning. I just can't forgive that line, we are where we are, and we will all be in a worse position because of RMT flawed thinking.

I don't have the union behind me for that reason, so I won't be striking. But I will do my bit by not working a single second of overtime. There will be no favours from me towards keeping things moving.

 

[SignallerJohn]

Also society is changing, many younger people are far less inclined to join unions, or at least take part in action every time a rep cries "everybody out!". Unions have to evolve to survive.

What are you talking about? MANY? Did you just make that up?!

At my place the younger members of staff are all unionised, because they realise that this job is as good as it is because of the people who came before them.

 

[STKKK46]

Next year would have made an awful lot more sense for all of this; let folk get through this winter on the wages that they know they'll earn, let the industry enjoy a decent summer, make it clear well in advance that something will be expected next year.

Exactly what I’ve been saying.

For the record I voted no. I will still be striking but the worry of how long this will last for makes me wonder how long I will be striking for.

If only I’d had time to put a bit of extra money aside.

 

[GB]

Now it is time to put something back. We are in trouble, passengers numbers are falling off, revenue is dropping away. I can do one of two things. I can strike, or I can work a extra rest day to make up for the rising inflation. I'll choose the later. This is why I found Grant Shapps comments about overtime working offensive. Not all of us work rest days to make up for strikes, some of us do it to help ourselves out and to help the travelling public out. I don't like Tory governments, but just because you don't like the messenger doesn't mean the message is wrong.

I don't have the union behind me for that reason, so I won't be striking. But I will do my bit by not working a single second of overtime. There will be no favours from me towards keeping things moving.

Maybe because it is early, but those two posts seem to contradict each other.

 

[Gems]

Maybe because it is early, but those two posts seem to contradict each other.

Indeed, and the reason is because I am swinging like a pendulum. I can see so many sides to this argument it is unreal. I challenge anyone who thinks making these decisions are easy. The right of me thinks we are heading into the abyss, the left of me is very socialist and recognises that if you don't fight you lose. Then there is the middle ground that has such a distrust of the RMT it is painful.

 

[Bantamzen]

What are you talking about? MANY? Did you just make that up?!

At my place the younger members of staff are all unionised, because they realise that this job is as good as it is because of the people who came before them.

Did I make it up? No, this actually comes from talking to my union rep.....

 

[Bald Rick]

Hedley was a very shrewd negotiator and I think you'd be surprised at how well respected he was generally, including from the management side.

Well respected from the management side?
Nurse, my tablets!!

 

[LowLevel]

Well respected from the management side?
Nurse, my tablets!!

*some of the management side might perhaps be more appropriate

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. Which is why all the rubbish on this thread about the 1970s, miners strikes etc. is just that. There are going to be no wildcat strikes, flying pickets, entirely different industries walking out in solidarity with each other etc. The fact of the matter is that trade unions are far, far weaker these days.

Of course the Daily Mail pedals the false narrative that nothing has changed and plants the fear into the small minds of its readers that any kind of organisation of the workforce will transport the country back to the 70s and is a threat that must therefore be stamped out.

Hyacinth Bucket types also don’t like to be reminded how dirty working class railway staff earn more than call centre wages these days and, God forbid, perhaps even live in nicer houses than they do, so it’s a compelling message. It entirely suits the current government to jump onto the same bandwagon. It’s just a shame so many in this country (and on here) have swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

I find it utterly depressing that in the U.K. in 2022 there was someone on this thread earning £10 an hour during a cost of living crisis and and lashing out at (of all people) the railway unions… Talk about looking the wrong way for someone to vilify. I sincerely hope he succeeds in his application to join the railway where he might just find better Ts and Cs. If he does he will have occasion to rethink his assessment of unions.



On the railway the unions are thriving. That’s probably because they’re not the useless talking shops unions have been reduced to in most other industries and are still prepared to actually do something.

That said, do reps often cry “everybody out”? Certainly not on the railway they don’t. I’ve also been on seven years-ish and never so much as been balloted so I’ll call bull droppings on that!



Nobody on this thread has condoned coercion or bullying. As I keep saying if people simply don’t like you they might talk to you to the extent necessary to do their jobs (ie being professional) but they won’t go out of their way to help you. I think you don’t realise the extent to which the railway relies on goodwill both between company and employee, and (from an employee’s perspective) between each other.

It also sounds from the description above that your union also took a dim view of strike breakers - surprise surprise it comes with the territory in unionised industries. So can we all stop pretending the railway is somehow exceptional in that regard?



Actually, for all the faux concern on here about bullying and abuse of strike breakers by “scum bags” and “dinosaurs”, I’m happy to report the operational railway is generally a pretty supportive place to work. People tend to look out for each other and their colleagues. It’s not perfect but on balance I’d much rather work here than in a “kill or be killed” corporate environment where everyone is stabbing each other in the back in order to get ahead and secure a bonus/promotion or whatever.

I’ve also seen more cases of bullying and of people being “managed out” of jobs because their face didn’t fit in my time in the non unionised private sector than I ever have on the railway.



Sorry but this just 2 + 2 = 6.

Strikers v. strike breakers is purely about internal relations between colleagues. It has nothing whatsoever to do with relations with passengers. As a former union rep you must be aware of that and it’s extremely disingenuous of you to try and suggest otherwise.

Strikes generally also have nothing to do with punters (who are obviously inconvenienced, but that is *never* the motivation for industrial action, nor something anyone takes pleasure in). Unless we should conclude you hate tax payers because you’ve been out in the civil service?!




Let me think. The punters have come back after every other rail strike in history. They’ve also largely come back after Covid - in fact we could do with a few less at weekends. So, on balance, I can see why the unions think it’s worth the risk….



That’s fine! You do you.



Well then, given this comment, I’m sure you’ll agree with me that it’s high time tax payers and fare payers were stopped expecting to fund the profits of ROSCOs?

You won’t, of course, because that doesn’t suit your (glaringly obvious) agenda of citing faux concern about costs to attack unions trying to get cleaners a modest pay rise.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2022 ==



Agreed.

I’m sure we’ve all winced at the RMT’s press releases but the current approach is a lot more convincing and, dare I say, “professional”.

That can only be a good thing for the members they represent.

Correction - the freight punters didn't all come back after the ASLEF strike in 1955. It changed the freight market permanently in favour of road transport.

 

[Butts]

When this current government was elected, it was blatantly obvious that they wanted to pick a battle with rail unions. I thought the battle would be over DOO/DCO but ultimately it's come down to pay/T&C's/job security.

In the past two and a half years, I should think most staff, barring a personal crisis like a divorce/bereavement/illness should have been able to save more than enough to cover the loss of a few days pay. I've been saving ever since I started as a trainee.

As someone in the driving grade, what really gets on my wick is drivers (mainly younger ones in my age group) blow their income on vanity/lifestyle products and complain they can't afford to strike or even take part in a rest day ban.

The government's position is an ideological one, they have a track record of profligate financial waste:
£5bn on COVID loan fraud.
£16bn on COVID loan defaults.
£11bn because the chancellor couldn't be bothered to fix the interest rate on our national debt.
20% of COVID procurement contracts have red flags for alleged corruption.

I've got around 35 years left before I can claim a full railway pension. Loads of other professions have been shafted over the past three decades or so because their ranks failed to organise against degradation of their conditions of employment. I don't want some of the last well-paid working-class trades which offer genuine social mobility to become the latest in a long line of careers which offer vastly reduced circumstances to the next generation.

Is it not the case particularly for Drivers - "That we are all Middle Class Now"

Quelle surprise down thread when someone is complaining a lot of them vote Tory..

 

[dk1]

Is it not the case particularly for Drivers - "That we are all Middle Class Now"

Quelle surprise down thread when someone is complaining a lot of them vote Tory..

We where laughing about this in the messroom the other day as the conversation amongst us drivers was mainly about share holdings & the stock market. How things have changed over the years.

 

[Butts]

We where laughing about this in the messroom the other day as the conversation amongst us drivers was mainly about share holdings & the stock market. How things have changed over the years.

I suspect as with a lot of professions a lot of the long serving drivers from BR days wouldn't even get in now.

I'm surprised it's not Graduate Entry these days.

Who are the most militant the recent entrants or the "old boys" ?

 

[Tomnick]

I’m most certainly not ok. Three days of strike action in a pay period (six days in total for us) will leave us unable to pay bills. We can survive on a flat month but generally do quite a bit of overtime to be able to enjoy life a bit. With a likely rest day ban and strikes I don’t see what I’m going to be able to do.

I know that you're not alone in that. The problem, though, is that inflation is a fact of life - yes, the current crisis is exceptional, but the cost of living increases year-on-year to some extent regardless, or rather the value of money effectively decreases year-on-year.

I’ve never asked for a payrise in my life, I’m not working differently so I don’t see why I should get one. If I want a payrise I could always apply for a job with more responsibility.

If my predecessors had taken the same view as that over the last twenty years, my pay would now be £38k, not £58k. Could you pay your current bills on that?

We all need pay rises to generally keep up with inflation, to maintain the same income in real terms for doing the same job.

This is where it’s going. The union should be keeping their powder dry for now so they still have some teeth left when the real changes happen.

Not only would that leave us all in a financially weaker position to fight later, I'd like to think (hope?) that a lot of people around the country are looking at us now, and at what we're asking for, and realising just how much the rising cost of living is affecting them.

What we really need to hope for is that this appalling excuse for a Government isn't around when the real changes start!

 

[dk1]

I suspect as with a lot of professions a lot of the long serving drivers from BR days wouldn't even get in now.

I'm surprised it's not Graduate Entry these days.

Who are the most militant the recent entrants or the "old boys" ?

Six of one half a dozen of the other really.

 

[Kite159]

What saddens me most is the fact that a very large percentage of the railway messrooms voted Tory. I can't get my head around that at all.
I dropped out of the RMT years ago because of a point of view that irritated the life out of me. That was their stance on Brexit. To me it was an act of self harm. We as an industry had more to fear from Tories like Reece-Mogg, and Pritti Useless, than we ever had from the EU. Yet the line was peddled that the EU was the enemy of the railway. Jeremy Corbyn warned of a bonfire of workers rights if we left, and it sickened me knowing he was right, and yet there was no reasoning. I just can't forgive that line, we are where we are, and we will all be in a worse position because of RMT flawed thinking.

I don't have the union behind me for that reason, so I won't be striking. But I will do my bit by not working a single second of overtime. There will be no favours from me towards keeping things moving.

Because what was the alternative? A party which will probably rise taxes for those who earn more than average (by lowering the threshold for the 40% tax bracket etc).

I remember the last labour government who would make a big song and dance about giving an extra £30 a year on the personal allowance, increasing minimum wage by 5p. When at the same time as axing the 10% 'starter' rate to give a headline of 'lowering tax from 22% to 20%' which hit the lowest paid (forcing an emergency increase of the personal allowance to get the media off their backs).

 

[Mintona]

If my predecessors had taken the same view as that over the last twenty years, my pay would now be £38k, not £58k. Could you pay your current bills on that?

No, but then I would be living to that wage instead of my current wage. Whereas strikes seem a good way to take us back down. As I did when I started as a driver and my salary was pretty much that.

What we really need to hope for is that this appalling excuse for a Government isn't around when the real changes start!

On this, I am in full agreement. Sadly I believe that the ensuing rail strikes are providing the Conservative party something to rally around, a good excuse for them to all join together just as they were looking very weak. A ‘common enemy’ for their red wall voters, as it were.

 

[Bald Rick]

Correction - the freight punters didn't all come back after the ASLEF strike in 1955. It changed the freight market permanently in favour of road transport.

nor in 1982.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

nor in 1982.

1982 was an "annus horibulous" (sic) for the freight business , following on from the issues with both steel and coal. Very serious economies followed after the loss of £250 million or so at the current prices.

It took a long time for Felixstowe shippers to get back confidence in rail , on some of the Freightliners at the height of the strike , great earning trains like 4S80 to Coatbridge got as far as Whitemoor for an involuntary 24 hour stopover - it carried maybe half a dozen empty containers for a revenue of about £60. Direct sea services from Southampton and Felixstowe , and road happily stepped into the breach and held onto a lot of the traffic.

 

[Towers]

1982 was an "annus horibulous" (sic) for the freight business , following on from the issues with both steel and coal. Very serious economies followed after the loss of £250 million or so at the current prices.

It took a long time for Felixstowe shippers to get back confidence in rail , on some of the Freightliners at the height of the strike , great earning trains like 4S80 to Coatbridge got as far as Whitemoor for an involuntary 24 hour stopover - it carried maybe half a dozen empty containers for a revenue of about £60. Direct sea services from Southampton and Felixstowe , and road happily stepped into the breach and held onto a lot of the traffic.

The railway might be helped this time by the chronic shortage of lorry drivers I suppose, and I could imagine road being less competitive with current fuel prices?

 

[Gems]

Because what was the alternative? A party which will probably rise taxes for those who earn more than average (by lowering the threshold for the 40% tax bracket etc).

I remember the last labour government who would make a big song and dance about giving an extra £30 a year on the personal allowance, increasing minimum wage by 5p. When at the same time as axing the 10% 'starter' rate to give a headline of 'lowering tax from 22% to 20%' which hit the lowest paid (forcing an emergency increase of the personal allowance to get the media off their backs).

This is why I despair. You forget that you are being taxed more now than at any time in history. Who is taxing you this fine amount. The Tories.
This is one of the many reason why I am reluctant to strike, just so well paid drivers can benefit from my income loss. If you love the Tories so much, get onto your ASLEF branch reps and get them to push for a strike ballot. Don't expect cleaners, despatch, and conductors who are earning 50% or less of what you earn to take the fight on your behalf.

 

[Bald Rick]

The railway might be helped this time by the chronic shortage of lorry drivers I suppose, and I could imagine road being less competitive with current fuel prices?

whilst that is true, it’s difficult for Road not to be more competitive when there’s very few rail freight services running at all.

Also, back then the freight companies were part of BR and effectively supported financially. If this dispute carries on, some of the FOCs will just go bust, and that will be that.

 

[Tomnick]

No, but then I would be living to that wage instead of my current wage. Whereas strikes seem a good way to take us back down. As I did when I started as a driver and my salary was pretty much that.

...but what if you'd done forty years with that attitude, not just twenty? I'd be on about £18k in that case! My point is that it's clearly not sustainable for the grade in the medium term.

On this, I am in full agreement. Sadly I believe that the ensuing rail strikes are providing the Conservative party something to rally around, a good excuse for them to all join together just as they were looking very weak. A ‘common enemy’ for their red wall voters, as it were

I do agree with you there. I'm not sure what the answer is - but I certainly don't want to just roll over! I really hope that we can get our message across to the likes of the red wall voters, that the principle of the thing at the heart of our dispute applies to them too.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

whilst that is true, it’s difficult for Road not to be more competitive when there’s very few rail freight services running at all.

Also, back then the freight companies were part of BR and effectively supported financially. If this dispute carries on, some of the FOCs will just go bust, and that will be that.

The box movers have had their own issues with the Suez canal blockage and other supply chain issues so my take is they will be sympathetic to the freight hauliers plight initially. Also prioritising freight has been seen as the priority in this dispute so im sure NR will be doing all it can to ensure paths are made available to recover cancelled moves. Also we know the industries people are absolutely great in dealing with these sorts of challenges.