Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The leadership are fighting the government as much as anybody else. A lot of it is pure politics like 1983.

Or even in the decade before that.

 

[the sniper]

They were for quite a few years after the steam engines went, ensuring pay stayed low for everybody else!

So what happened in the end? Given you've argued the unions position is "they can't really do anything else until the jobs have gone". Where did they go?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How is it nonsense ?

If the railway is nationalised and the entire workforce goes on strike at the same time then that’s more effective than groups of staff for various tocs going on strike.

Also If it is nationalised it can’t go bust. The government foots the bill. So nobody loses their jobs.

Do you recall the Beeching era of the nationalised railway? How many railway jobs were lost then and what tactics did the rail unions use at that time?

 

[jayah]

It’s not a glass ceiling. It’s a completely different career path, as has been pointed out. It’s like suggesting that doctors should be able to progress on to become High Court judges.



Regrettably for you, a very good friend of mine is a Band 8 nurse who his about to transition back to the NHS after 12 years in the private sector based in London. Even there, the proportion of NHS staff doing bank shifts in the private sector is perhaps not as high as you seem to imagine.



Subject to negotiations with their employer, everyone gets paid “take it or leave it wages”. Different employers will pay different rates depending on a number of factors, even within the nursing market.

But seeing as you’re insistent on making parallels with nursing, I should point out that there really aren’t that many parallels you can realistically draw. Nursing vacancies remain unfilled because of a paucity of suitable candidates. However, a ward can still be run “short handed” provided that the safety margins are not breached. You can’t really do this with traincrew without cancellations.

Doctors and judges are completely different disciplines. That is not a good comparison.

There are many thousands of qualified staff who are sitting it out. There is a lack of candidates only at the current rates of pay, which do not get increased to fill them.

In the public sector cancellations don't matter. The government isn’t fining itself £m for not delivering the pre COVID timetable or cancelling services.

The wages are fixed by the budget and the service fits around the workforce, just like the NHS.

 

[O L Leigh]

Doctors and judges are completely different disciplines. That is not a good comparison.

Precisely!! Just like nursing and medicine. Geddit?

There are many thousands of qualified staff who are sitting it out. There is a lack of candidates only at the current rates of pay, which do not get increased to fill them.

Cite your source for “many thousands” please.

The wages are fixed by the budget and the service fits around the workforce, just like the NHS.

Only half right. The service defines the required staffing establishment, not the other way around. And that applies in the NHS as on the railways.

 

[jayah]

So what happened in the end? Given you've argued the unions position is "they can't really do anything else until the jobs have gone". Where did they go?

In the end the remaining secondmen will have became guards or drivers, but it took about 20yrs to do.

If you can avoid recruiting more of them, it becomes easier in time.

If it isn't a promotion, pay rise or voluntary severance, the union have to oppose it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thinking back to the days of a certain TV programme, that had a railway-based title of a social club, whatever happened to the wheeltappers and shunters jobs on the railway?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Do you recall the Beeching era of the nationalised railway? How many railway jobs were lost then and what tactics did the rail unions use at that time?

The redundancy payments were generous , and there were significant transfers from say South Wales to Kent for displaced staff etc. Not to say it was an easy transition in any way.

 

[jayah]

Precisely!! Just like nursing and medicine. Geddit?



Cite your source for “many thousands” please.



Only half right. The service defines the required staffing establishment, not the other way around. And that applies in the NHS as on the railways.

Only someone living in the 1950s tinewarp would think judges know as much about medicine as nurses do.

There are around 700,000 registered nurses on the permanent register, 600,000 of whom registered in the UK, roughly double the number working in the NHS, where 90% of health spending takes place.

You will note that the train service is still well below pre COVID and some lines like Doncaster to Scunthorpe are now being bustituted.

The service is already fitting around the workforce before your eyes and the government has no contract with itself that will alter any of this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2022 ==

The redundancy payments were generous , and there were significant transfers from say South Wales to Kent for displaced staff etc. Not to say it was an easy transition in any way.

The railway lost jobs almost continuously from WW2 until it was privatised and had endless strikes to protect wasteful and unproductive jobs and practices that kept down pay and threatened their viability.

 

[O L Leigh]

Only someone living in the 1950s tinewarp would think judges know as much about medicine as nurses do.

Then unfortunately you missed my point.

There are around 700,000 registered nurses on the permanent register, 600,000 of whom registered in the UK, roughly double the number working in the NHS, where 90% of health spending takes place.

I asked you to cite the source. Please can you now do so.

The service is already fitting around the workforce before your eyes and the government has no contract with itself that will alter any of this.

Yes, because it is having to to cope with staff shortages. However, this is a reactive approach and not at all how you would go about resourcing a service, be it rail or healthcare. All you’re seeing is the logical conclusion to the process without recognising that a point comes where it becomes unsustainable to continue with it.

 

[The_PlainTruth]

Too many people misleading what is actually being offered and what is at stake:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2022 ==

Exactly how I see it maintenance wouldn’t give two toots about us, so I’m afraid it’s look after your own as far as I’m concerned.

I’m annoyed the union is using use to add weight to the maintenance cause.

That's the height of ignorance, selfishness and stupidity. If they come for the T&Cs of operation grades will you be expecting the maintenance team to back you up? We defend them, they defend us. It's simple and it's essential. No divide and conquer. We divide and we both lose! How short sighted can some people be.

 

[Signal_Box]

Too many people misleading what is actually being offered and what is at stake:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2022 ==


That's the height of ignorance, selfishness and stupidity. If they come for the T&Cs of operation grades will you be expecting the maintenance team to back you up? We defend them, they defend us. It's simple and it's essential. No divide and conquer. We divide and we both lose! How short sighted can some people be.

No I’m not naive enough to think they’d give two toots about us.

S&T & PWay have a long standing internal disagreement there was a dispute years ago which saw PW sell their S&T brothers down the river.

You call it short sighted, I call it 20+ years on the job in multiple grades across a few areas of operations and having seen how each department sees others.

 

[yorksrob]

Says it all really. False reporting yet again.

Best go to the ASLEF website:

ASLEF Announces Strike Date | ASLEF

ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, has announced a day of strike action after train companies failed to make a pay offer to keep pace with the increase in the cost of living.

aslef.org.uk

They’ve corrected their mistake now.

c2c aren’t balloting as far as I’m aware.

XC, Avanti and DRS ballots don't close until 27th

Thanks for the information everyone.

I suppose in the BBC's defence, it's difficult to be accurate first off when you're jumping on a scoop !

 

[Annetts key]

The reason for 39 weekends is because they want their staff working on tracks that are closed to trains. Too many people were getting killed and it should have happened years ago.

They never mention this when playing the safety card.

Err, yes the RMT is well aware of the track safety and safe system of work systems. And of the various accidents and incidents. Including all the internal railway investigations that are not made public.

Again, someone here who does not understand unions. The RMT is always very concerned with regards to the safety of their members.

Technology is meant to be replacing much of the patrolling and inspecting, and is actually better at it.

The unions were involved with the discussions regarding the use of inspection trains.
Speaking of technology, the RMT has for some time been asking Network Rail to use technology to vastly improve the safety of lookout systems. But Network Rail decided to go for safeguarded (“green zone”) working instead.

Interesting to note how ASLEF claim all these deals they have done with Freightliner and DB.

If ASLEF went on strike, these companies would lose their customers and the drivers would lose their jobs, in short order.

Compare and contrast.

Err, ASLEF staff employed by eight TOCs are going on strike. And during the RMT strike earlier this year, some ASLEF members jointed the RMT picket lines.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Err, yes the RMT is well aware of the track safety and safe system of work systems. And of the various accidents and incidents. Including all the internal railway investigations that are not made public.

Again, someone here who does not understand unions. The RMT is always very concerned with regards to the safety of their members.


The unions were involved with the discussions regarding the use of inspection trains.
Speaking of technology, the RMT has for some time been asking Network Rail to use technology to vastly improve the safety of lookout systems. But Network Rail decided to go for safeguarded (“green zone”) working instead.


Err, ASLEF staff employed by eight TOCs are going on strike. And during the RMT strike earlier this year, some ASLEF members jointed the RMT picket lines.

I have a question for you, seeing as you post a lot about the whole situation and the current deal being offered, what is a realistic deal that you would actually accept?

 

[The Middle]

Further strike action called for Thursday 18th August and Saturday 20th August.

I see this is just starting to break amongst some of the media organisations on twitter

 

[Efini92]

Thanks for the information everyone.

I suppose in the BBC's defence, it's difficult to be accurate first off when you're jumping on a scoop !

I suspect they copied and pasted the 8 tocs that announced ballot results on the same day.

 

[gazzaa2]

Are strikes between now and September futile? Johnson is going so will have no interest or incentive in solving the dispute and the government is in a state of paralysis amid a new leadership contest. There'll likely be a new transport minister come September time anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

Also If it is nationalised it can’t go bust. The government foots the bill. So nobody loses their jobs.

It can be closed though.

don’t rule that out.

 

[JetStream]

TfW drivers are going to be balloted re strike/action short of.

Train drivers on Transport for Wales are to be balloted over strike action, union bosses have said after eight other companies agreed a 24-hour Saturday strike.

Members of Aslef at Arriva Rail London, Chiltern Railways, Greater Anglia, Great Western, Hull Trains, LNER, Southeastern and West Midlands Trains – which runs services from Shrewsbury to Birmingham alongside Transport for Wales's through trains from Powys – will walk out on July 30.

Transport for Wales drivers balloted over strikes as eight other companies' staff announce action dates

Train drivers on Transport for Wales are to be balloted over strike action, union bosses have said after eight other companies agreed a 24-hour…

www.countytimes.co.uk

 

[Annetts key]

S&T & PWay have a long standing internal disagreement there was a dispute years ago which saw PW sell their S&T brothers down the river.

News to me, given that S&T and P.Way are all covered by the same T&Cs… And have been since the private contractors grabbed a slice of the privatisation action. This predates Network Rail.
Then in around 2010/2011, a new working practice agreement came in, that affected S&T and P.Way. If anything the P.Way came off worse.

 

[choochoochoo]

Do you recall the Beeching era of the nationalised railway? How many railway jobs were lost then and what tactics did the rail unions use at that time?

It can be closed though.

don’t rule that out.

Weren’t the beeching closures mainly on underused operations.

It would be easier to resolve the dispute than to close the railway.

Especially after they’ve boasted they’ve invested so much into it. !!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Weren’t the beeching closures mainly on underused operations.

It would be easier to resolve the dispute than to close the railway.

Especially after they’ve boasted they’ve invested so much into it. !!

Go back a few years. Would you then say it would be easier to resolve the dispute than to close the coal mines?

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, there has been the matter of the union taking on the Government in the rhetoric that came forth when a union official wanted matters of other disputes in different sections in dispute to be co-ordinated.

 

[Annetts key]

I have a question for you, seeing as you post a lot about the whole situation and the current deal being offered, what is a realistic deal that you would actually accept?

Because this dispute covers so many grade groups, that’s not easy to answer.

On the maintenance and infrastructure side, Network Rail need to drop most of their pie in the sky modernisation ideas.

The RMT is prepared to have reasonable discussions on new technology, just like has happened in the past.

I can’t give you a figure on what would be an acceptable pay rise. But no one is expecting an “inflation busting” figure.

 

[footprints]

Are strikes between now and September futile? Johnson is going so will have no interest or incentive in solving the dispute and the government is in a state of paralysis amid a new leadership contest. There'll likely be a new transport minister come September time anyway.

I doubt the RMT care if they're futile or not at this point. They appear to be just on an ego trip at their members' expense.

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect they copied and pasted the 8 tocs that announced ballot results on the same day.

Sounds plausible !

 

[O L Leigh]

There are around 700,000 registered nurses on the permanent register, 600,000 of whom registered in the UK, roughly double the number working in the NHS, where 90% of health spending takes place.

As it's clearly past your bedtime I shall do your homework for you (click). Aren't I kind?

According to this article, there are more than twice the number of non-NHS nurses compared to the NHS (382000 v 321000). Given that this is pretty close to the total number on the NMC register (704520), I would say that there really can't be that many sitting on the sidelines. I would imagine that there are a small proportion who may have recently left the profession who still have an active registration, but once they fail to undergo revalidation or fail to pay their annual subscription their registrations will lapse*.

As for those who have left, those surveyed by the NMC gave retirement (43%) and changes in personal circumstances (22%) as the top two reasons. The remainder probably fit neatly under headings that would prompt folk on this forum to chirp in with the phrase "well if you don't like it you can leave". Given that this is precisely what they have done, I'm not sure that you could line them up for criticism.

As for 90% of healthcare spending being made in the NHS, that may be true of Government spending but not when you consider private spending. In 2019, private spending on healthcare came in at £42.1bn (source) while government spending on healthcare was £176.8bn (source), some of which would have been spent on private health services, such as my Mum's recent hip replacement surgery.

* For me this is the key to understanding why your position on this matter is flawed. You cannot undergo revalidation when you are not in current practice. It simply isn't possible. Therefore, anyone "sitting it out" will quickly find that their NMC registration will lapse and, without a valid registration, they cannot practice.

 

[Signal_Box]

News to me, given that S&T and P.Way are all covered by the same T&Cs… And have been since the private contractors grabbed a slice of the privatisation action. This predates Network Rail.
Then in around 2010/2011, a new working practice agreement came in, that affected S&T and P.Way. If anything the P.Way came off worse.

Under BR. The wounds are deep, just like the RMT/NUR and ASLEF.

 

[Annetts key]

Under BR. The wounds are deep, just like the RMT/NUR and ASLEF.

BR restructured the S&T in 1991/1992, the P.Way continued on the (older) existing BR T&Cs. Both groups stayed on their respective T&Cs until privatisation.

If you mean something much before this, then it’s before my time. So you will have to explain yourself.

 

[fatlad68]

Why ? No real impact on current signallers, TMS actually benefits us (where we’re trained to use it) no compulsory redundancies for the life of the deal. The only issue I can see is the uplift to 67 vice 65.

The proposed increase in pay will now cover the current lose in strikes, I’d also say the self evidence proposals need work to allow us the time to compile the files.

They want a 2 year deal but are offering less money than we are after for a one year deal and part of that is based on 'targets' being met.

I've no issue with TMS as we already use luminate and ARS at our place, the only real problems with it are when the TRC's put trains in platforms they can't go in or are prohibited from coupling or splitting. Out of 16 workstations only one of them uses Luminate daily. It is of no real benefit if your stations only have a few platform, its easier to just knock the train out of ARS and route manually.

No-one at my place sees TMS as an issue, the big thing is pay and an objection to the 6 months notice. I believe this has come about after the disastrous recruitment campaign for pilots who were laid off during covid. We had 20+ who came into grade 9 jobs and then left as soon as the airlines who started recruiting again. The joke was Network Rail had lost more pilots than the Luftwaffe did in the Battle of Britain. Hence also the lower starting pay during training to put off job hoppers.