Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[O L Leigh]

Go back a few years. Would you then say it would be easier to resolve the dispute than to close the coal mines?

I fear that's wee bit simplistic. We'd found oil and gas at the bottom of the North Sea by then and I'm sure the government of the day was looking to off-load coal at some point, so having a duff-up with the unions probably suited their purposes.

But where's the transport equivalent of North Sea oil/gas that's waiting in the wings to replace rail?

A foolhardy position? Perhaps. I don't expect rail to be immune from change, but it will continue to survive in some form.

 

[Goldfish62]

I do wonder whether one of the strike dates just announced being on the same day as a major charity event largely organised by the Chair of NR is just a mere coincidence...

 

[Horizon22]

At the moment almost zero progress outside the nursing branch. Which makes nursing a far less attractive career.

It is like suggesting that working on a station was completely different to working on a train and experience of one was irrelevant to the other. Ditto guards and drivers.

There needs to be a viable and actively used career pathway, not this 1950s mentality about getting ideas above your station.

And this is likely down to the extortionate cost, time and demands of trying to become a qualified doctor (whilst still a nurse or we are causing a shortage there too so they can train?) as opposed to being "above your station". If there was some sort of 'fast track for nurses' that might be good, but I wouldn't want to be cutting down the training time for medical professionals, just like I wouldn't want to a train driver or a signaller.

 

[choochoochoo]

I fear that's wee bit simplistic. We'd found oil and gas at the bottom of the North Sea by then and I'm sure the government of the day was looking to off-load coal at some point, so having a duff-up with the unions probably suited their purposes.

But where's the transport equivalent of North Sea oil/gas that's waiting in the wings to replace rail?

A foolhardy position? Perhaps. I don't expect rail to be immune from change, but it will continue to survive in some form.

Exactly this.

The government knew they could replace (and even stockpile) coal.

There is no viable alternative to mass transportation.

It is foolish to compare the railway with the coal mines.

 

[Kite159]

Is it 12 weeks since the first strike date before the government can simply go down the nuclear option of issuing out P45s for breach of contract. With the option of they can keep a job but sign a new contract with different T&Cs?

Not like they will risk it in my eyes, but it's something which can't be ruled out. And who knows what the next PM will be like towards the rail industry (also the next minister assuming Shapps gets his marching orders).

They could see it as short term pain for long term gain.

I heard ASLEF are having to reballot Northern drivers due to the first ballot being voided due to some issues.

 

[the sniper]

It can be closed though.

don’t rule that out.

I appreciate you say you're close to the Government, so hear all sorts of mad ramblings, but are you really suggesting that a serious option is the closure of the railway? Over what we're told is a strike that is supposedly irrelevant, which could be ended with what would be fairly trivial changes in the offer being made, in the grand scheme of things. Instead, this increasingly bizarre nation would sooner consider abandoning it instead. I suppose the world is coming to expect the unique choices Britain makes, however at odds they are with global norms, but this would be quite something.

Either you're just stoking the flames or you're being served the kool aid at Great Minster House.

 

[Signal_Box]

They want a 2 year deal but are offering less money than we are after for a one year deal and part of that is based on 'targets' being met.

I've no issue with TMS as we already use luminate and ARS at our place, the only real problems with it are when the TRC's put trains in platforms they can't go in or are prohibited from coupling or splitting. Out of 16 workstations only one of them uses Luminate daily. It is of no real benefit if your stations only have a few platform, its easier to just knock the train out of ARS and route manually.

No-one at my place sees TMS as an issue, the big thing is pay and an objection to the 6 months notice. I believe this has come about after the disastrous recruitment campaign for pilots who were laid off during covid. We had 20+ who came into grade 9 jobs and then left as soon as the airlines who started recruiting again. The joke was Network Rail had lost more pilots than the Luftwaffe did in the Battle of Britain. Hence also the lower starting pay during training to put off job hoppers.

Thames Valley Signalling Centre (TVSC) perchance ? It’s railway legend now the pilot recruitment farce lol

TVSC will always be a stepping stone location six months or not due to its poor location.

BR restructured the S&T in 1991/1992, the P.Way continued on the (older) existing BR T&Cs. Both groups stayed on their respective T&Cs until privatisation.

If you mean something much before this, then it’s before my time. So you will have to explain yourself.

All I know is they won’t look out for each other, so why should I ? They sure as hell wouldn’t go out for us i I’m certain of that.

 

[Goldfish62]

Is it 12 weeks since the first strike date before the government can simply go down the nuclear option of issuing out P45s for breach of contract. With the option of they can keep a job but sign a new contract with different T&Cs?

Yes, it's 12 weeks from the start of industrial action that you are no longer protected from dismissal due to breach of contract *provided* meaningful steps have been taken to resolve the dispute.

I'm not sure how often this has been exercised, but it's extremely rare.

How is it nonsense ?

Also If it is nationalised it can’t go bust. The government foots the bill. So nobody loses their jobs.

Oh yes it can go bust. During Covid TfL was on the verge of being unable to pay its bills or pay its staff therefore being technically insolvent. It was only due to an emergency government bailout that this didn't happen, but there was nothing stopping the government letting TfL go under if they had so wished.

Several local authorities have gone bust in recen years.

 

[FenMan]

So strikes are now aimed at the, current, busiest day of the week - Saturday.

But the number of essential journeys on Saturdays is minimal compared with M-F. So (remaining) commuters, those who have traditionally paid the railway's bills carry on as normal, while people who make choices how to spend their weekend are hit.

I'd love to meet the Einsteins who think focusing strike action on Saturdays is a great idea. They're idiots.

 

[Northern_guard]

So strikes are now aimed at the, current, busiest day of the week - Saturday.

But the number of essential journeys on Saturdays is minimal compared with M-F. So (remaining) commuters, those who have traditionally paid the railway's bills carry on as normal, while people who make choices how to spend their weekend are hit.

I'd love to meet the Einsteins who think focusing strike action on Saturdays is a great idea. They're idiots.

Saturday is a leisure day. Leisure travel is up massively and commuting isn't near pre-covid levels.

The focus is hitting the biggest market. Seems fairly clever to me.

 

[choochoochoo]

Is it 12 weeks since the first strike date before the government can simply go down the nuclear option of issuing out P45s for breach of contract. With the option of they can keep a job but sign a new contract with different T&Cs?

Not like they will risk it in my eyes, but it's something which can't be ruled out. And who knows what the next PM will be like towards the rail industry (also the next minister assuming Shapps gets his marching orders).

They could see it as short term pain for long term gain.

If they sacked the strikers after 12 weeks who’d do all the now vacant jobs ? You need an operational railway to train any successors and staff to train them.

Oh yes it can go bust. During Covid TfL was on the verge of being unable to pay its bills or pay its staff therefore being technically insolvent. It was only due to an emergency government bailout that this didn't happen, but there was nothing stopping the government letting TfL go under if they had so wished.

Several local authorities have gone bust in recen years.

Do you think any government would let the railway just stop operating ? As I say there’s too much already invested in the railway. And too many depend on it even after work from home revolution. Not to mention national pride. Why do you think the government stepped in with emergency management contracts ? It’s not out of the kindness of grant shapps heart. They did it because they couldn’t afford to let the railway fail in the long term.

Same with TfL, even now Grant Shapps is whining about not having some info from TfL but do they stop the funding because of it ? No, because they know the city and the economy would grind to a halt without it.

Also what happens when local authorities go bust ? What services actually stop permanently ?

 

[the sniper]

The next initiative will be to ban commercial aviation as a solution to that industry's staff shortage/pay/T&Cs problems... Aren't Heathrow already trialling it?

So strikes are now aimed at the, current, busiest day of the week - Saturday.

Saturday is a leisure day. Leisure travel is up massively and commuting isn't near pre-covid levels.

The focus is hitting the biggest market. Seems fairly clever to me.

That must only seem apparent to us idiots.

Funny to see people complaining about not hitting commuters or essential journeys though.

 

[Dryce]

There is no viable alternative to mass transportation.

It is foolish to compare the railway with the coal mines.

The issue perhaps isn't about whether there is a viable alternative to mass transportation - but the level of viable need for mass transportation after the profound shifts in office working patterns over the last two years.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does anyone get the feeling that if the leaders of the RMT did not carry around the baggage of thinking that it is not just a major trades union, but also a socialist political party in waiting, that it would serve its membership far better and devote all its time to looking after the interests of its membership as its sole aim.

 

[Bantamzen]

Easy solution to this - remove TOCs from the definition of “public sector” - no real reason for them still to be there now that ticket revenues are back to decent levels. The concerns of the public sector as a whole are not aligned with those of the railway unions.

As for 11% - you do get this is a negotiation, don’t you? The unions won’t be expecting that - deals have been struck around the 5% mark at Scotrail and 8% at Crossrail. I expect something like that (likely to the lower end) is where most TOCs will end up. That’s roughly in accordance with current total wage growth this year so far in the wider economy, which is around 8% according to the ONS. So hardly unreasonable to expect on the railway - and of course this is less than inflation so still a pay cut in real terms!



What does any of this have to do with ASLEF and TSSA? Trade unions aren’t concerned with stewardship of the wider economy - it’s not for them to decide how any particular expenditure is paid for.

Surely you understand that?



Another lesson in half baked amateur economics! Just like in the other thread, you appear to be regurgitating the bad faith government line: “we can’t give railway workers a pay rise because of inflation”, while in the meantime that same government has massively increased the state pension, is increasing the NMW and Tory leadership hopefuls are queuing up to offer billions worth of tax cuts. Any suggestions that inflationary pressure is of any concern to this government is laughable.



Indeed!

As an ASLEF member. I pay dues for two reasons: 1 an insurance policy 2 for the union to protect Ts and Cs and prevent by standard of living from being eroded, by fighting if necessary. It really is as narrow as that. Comparisons to other industries, nurses being paid £25k, people earning a pittance in retail etc. are neither here nor there. They have their own unions to fight their corner.

You know I stopped at that very first sentence. There really is no point in arguing with someone who thinks the "easy solution' to the problem is to just press the reverse button back into the private sector. Perhaps you missed the bit where private companies couldn't wait to ditch franchises onto the government? The industry is being bankrolled by public money for a reason.

 

[gazzaa2]

How is it nonsense ?

If the railway is nationalised and the entire workforce goes on strike at the same time then that’s more effective than groups of staff for various tocs going on strike.

Also If it is nationalised it can’t go bust. The government foots the bill. So nobody loses their jobs.

The problem with nationalisation is rail is at the mercy of (mostly Tory) governments. Look at British Rail in the 80s or the Beeching years.

The Tories will always decimate public services to enrich themselves.

 

[Watershed]

You know I stopped at that very first sentence. There really is no point in arguing with someone who thinks the "easy solution' to the problem is to just press the reverse button back into the private sector. Perhaps you missed the bit where private companies couldn't wait to ditch franchises onto the government? The industry is being bankrolled by public money for a reason.

Indeed. Sure, the industry could pre-Covid levels of subsidy overnight. But it would mean closing a substantial number of lines and making many redundancies. Probably also pay cuts of the order of 20 or 30%.

Something tells me that's not what @43066 was hoping for!

 

[gazzaa2]

So strikes are now aimed at the, current, busiest day of the week - Saturday.

But the number of essential journeys on Saturdays is minimal compared with M-F. So (remaining) commuters, those who have traditionally paid the railway's bills carry on as normal, while people who make choices how to spend their weekend are hit.

I'd love to meet the Einsteins who think focusing strike action on Saturdays is a great idea. They're idiots.

It's easier to sell strikes on weekends because staff hate working them anyway. We've seen that on other TOcs. Northern's dispute for years just ended up striking every Saturday.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's easier to sell strikes on weekends because staff hate working them anyway. We've seen that on other TOcs. Northern's dispute for years just ended up striking every Saturday.

I wonder if those same rail staff would be in full support should the store staff in all the major supemarket chains decided that weekend work was one to strike over.

 

[Lancy99]

I wonder if those same rail staff would be in full support should the store staff in all the major supemarket chains decided that weekend work was one to strike over.

If it was for better terms and conditions then yes I’d fully support them. A strike is always a last resort.

 

[ComUtoR]

I wonder if those same rail staff would be in full support should the store staff in all the major supemarket chains decided that weekend work was one to strike over.

I work shifts. My weekly shop tends to be on a weekday afternoon.

 

[gazzaa2]

I wonder if those same rail staff would be in full support should the store staff in all the major supemarket chains decided that weekend work was one to strike over.

I remember during the Northern guard dispute there was posters on here saying the guards were happy to be striking Saturdays because they were a nightmare to work and they just made the hours up with overtime so weren't losing money anyway. That just led to a standoff as nobody had any incentive to end the dispute.

I knew when the strike action was confirmed last month it'd be predominantly Saturday strikes.

 

[Shrop]

Saturday is a leisure day. Leisure travel is up massively and commuting isn't near pre-covid levels.

The focus is hitting the biggest market. Seems fairly clever to me.

I can't see what's clever about hitting a market that's more flexible, ie which has more alternative options. The result will be to push people into cars, instead of taking the opportunity to show them how the railways can provide a great service. So the industry misses an opportunity to grow.
There seems to be a belief that damaging the industry will hurt management more than it will hurt staff. But is there not a risk that if the industry shrinks, then management will find it easier to simply walk into other jobs than staff will?

 

[The_PlainTruth]

So strikes are now aimed at the, current, busiest day of the week - Saturday.

But the number of essential journeys on Saturdays is minimal compared with M-F. So (remaining) commuters, those who have traditionally paid the railway's bills carry on as normal, while people who make choices how to spend their weekend are hit.

I'd love to meet the Einsteins who think focusing strike action on Saturdays is a great idea. They're idiots.

I'm not persuaded of that. I wouldn't be surprised if they just do all the Saturday's in a month soon. What isn't essential for one man is essential for another, such as sports entertainment. It is also impacting a lot on the hospitality industry, businesses who will be banging on the door of their MPs to say sort this out and actually the government could sort it out very fast.

 

[Falcon1200]

The problem with nationalisation is rail is at the mercy of (mostly Tory) governments. Look at British Rail in the 80s or the Beeching years.

The Tories will always decimate public services to enrich themselves.

Which to some degree ignores the fact that Labour continued implementing Beeching and merrily closed lines after taking power in 1964, including such routes as the Somerset & Dorset, Great Central London extension, and most outrageously the entire Waverley route, some of which has since been rebuilt at huge expense. And, remind me please, under which party was the already-started Channel Tunnel cancelled, and under which party was it constructed ?

IMHO the Tories have been prepared to support the railway where justified (think of the amount of electrification carried out in the 80s and 90s) but not to write a blank cheque for them, forever. Which is not to say that their conduct in the present disputes is helping the situation, at all, but then neither are the politically-motivated aims of the RMT's Executive.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I work shifts. My weekly shop tends to be on a weekday afternoon.

Assuming that you are a rail union member, such a matter of that is something that being a "true red believer", you would not betray fellow union members just to fit in with your personal needs.

 

[Andypandy1968]

I can't see what's clever about hitting a market that's more flexible, ie which has more alternative options. The result will be to push people into cars, instead of taking the opportunity to show them how the railways can provide a great service. So the industry misses an opportunity to grow.
There seems to be a belief that damaging the industry will hurt management more than it will hurt staff. But is there not a risk that if the industry shrinks, then management will find it easier to simply walk into other jobs than staff will?

Push people into cars? You mean the ones they can't afford to run due to the price of fuel?

 

[Clarence Yard]

The problem with nationalisation is rail is at the mercy of (mostly Tory) governments. Look at British Rail in the 80s or the Beeching years.

The Tories will always decimate public services to enrich themselves.

Most railwaymen who worked throughout the 1980’s will look back at the mid to late 1980’s with fondness. The money taps got turned on, there was plenty of investment authorised and in most years a decent pay rise was no problem. Only in 1990, when the money for BR got tight again, did we start to lapse back into the old ways.

It isn’t a simple Labour/Tory thing either. A nationalised industry means you are always at the mercy of the Treasury, whoever is in power. I’m not pleased at what this Conservative Government is doing with rail but, as a railwayman, I don’t particularly remember the days of a TGWU influenced Labour Government with affection either.

 

[The_PlainTruth]

I appreciate you say you're close to the Government, so hear all sorts of mad ramblings, but are you really suggesting that a serious option is the closure of the railway? Over what we're told is a strike that is supposedly irrelevant, which could be ended with what would be fairly trivial changes in the offer being made, in the grand scheme of things. Instead, this increasingly bizarre nation would sooner consider abandoning it instead. I suppose the world is coming to expect the unique choices Britain makes, however at odds they are with global norms, but this would be quite something.

Either you're just stoking the flames or you're being served the kool aid at Great Minster House.

I agree. The government is incredibly out of touch if it thinks the public wouldn't severely punish it for being so reckless and petty.

 

[yorksrob]

L

Which to some degree ignores the fact that Labour continued implementing Beeching and merrily closed lines after taking power in 1964, including such routes as the Somerset & Dorset, Great Central London extension, and most outrageously the entire Waverley route, some of which has since been rebuilt at huge expense. And, remind me please, under which party was the already-started Channel Tunnel cancelled, and under which party was it constructed ?

IMHO the Tories have been prepared to support the railway where justified (think of the amount of electrification carried out in the 80s and 90s) but not to write a blank cheque for them, forever. Which is not to say that their conduct in the present disputes is helping the situation, at all, but then neither are the politically-motivated aims of the RMT's Executive.

The blank cheques have been available to pay for Tory ideology, i.e the ongoing exorbitant leasing costs, as well as 3% profit to keep private companies involved.