Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Wolfie]

Specifically what did I say that made you think that?

Methinks you’ve got the wrong end of the stick.

Your comment of "Well, good. You can see where the railway unions are coming from, then?" after l mentioned my own previous health issue.

 

[43066]

Your comment of "Well, good. You can see where the railway unions are coming from, then?" after l mentioned my own previous health issue.

That’s going off on an irrelevant tangent, really? For goodness sake, you know perfectly well I’ve wished you well with it. You’re clutching at straws now.

Overall? A mighty poor effort, on your behalf. You’ve sort of lost the argument, really.

 

[irish_rail]

They might only be working a 3 day week, however they’re at work for over 12 hours, more like 13. Then commuting time. My wife is a nurse. She leaves for work 06.30 and isn’t home until about 20.00. She’s burnt out. As are most of her colleagues so while it sounds great on paper, she’s more knackered than me whose working stupid hour shifts. My jobs a walk in the park compared to nursing. Just have a think on that with your 3 day remark.

A 3 day week means they have 4 days to recover. And with set hours then at least the body becomes accustomed to a 6.30 alarm call . Rail workers with say a 3 am alarm and looking forward to working 5 days in a row of that probably in my personal opinion have it slightly worse. And yes I have known a nurse very well also , and I also have a huge respect for the profession. What bugs me is the national obsession with comparing nurses to train drivers!!!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What bugs me is the national obsession with comparing nurses to train drivers!!!

That is fostered by the media playing the "Florence Nightingale" card.

 

[Bantamzen]

I hear civil servants are something of an endangered species these days. JRM has donned his topper, he’s been sharpening his axe and his swivel eyes are looking your way! It’s high time (by his pocket watch) that the civil service was modernised and dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. I’m looking forward to reading about the forthcoming massacre in the Daily Mail! I don’t want to pay a penny piece more in income tax to support the civil service and its Spanish practices.

Sound familiar?!

Very familiar, its exactly what is happening in the CS right now. Gone are the days where we could just show up when we felt like it, scratch our arses, pour a cup of tea and then think about when we might starting doing a job. These days, at least in part of the gig, we've got to show our worth & be professional about it. A lot of people didn't / don't like it, and the union wibbled on about it but sadly thanks to their previous failed attempts at political coups they had lost the any real bite & as such meant the government didn't flinch when they threatened industrial action. This could happen to your unions too, which is why I bang on about picking your fights.

Ask yourself: who exactly benefits from that kind of attitude?

The people who benefit from our services?

You’re in one of the areas served by TPE
I think? Yep, clearly things are in bad shape in that neck or the woods. The blame can’t be laid at the door of the railway industry, though, when it’s being actively prevented from the delivering the service it’s supposed to by government strategy.

Yep I'm in West Yorkshire where we not only have the TPE dispute but Northern have cut back a lot of services. In fact it has got to the point where travelling on the remaining bus services in my area is starting to look more appealing, especially given the planned fare caps due to kick in October tiem.

That analysis also applies to the wider picture: the industry is ready and willing to reach agreement on the various disputes that are running and move forward. Ideological obstinacy from the government is preventing that.

Is it though? Reading through these various forums I have reason to doubt that the industry really is willing to move forward, but instead stay exactly where it is for more money.

You know what I mean. The civil service is entirely funded by tax revenue.
The railway requires subsidy but does at least have the benefit of generating significant fare income.

Only if the trains run, and on time. No point generating fares only to immediately have to pay it back to the punters because you've had to delay or cancel trains due to ongoing industrial action.

I’m afraid this is where my inner Tory emerges. Quite honestly, I’d rather the railway wasn’t publicly owned. Nationalised industries tend to be inefficient, wasteful and generally unfit for purpose - just look at the NHS! That’s not to say the current franchising system doesn’t have major issues, clearly it does. Albeit I’m not sure the proposed GBR model really changes things materially.

Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic springs to mind.

Unfortunately for you the private sector doesn't seem to keen to get involved any more. And this dispute simply further erodes any possibility of a reversal in that trend. Why would investors pour money into a gig that by & large struggles to self sustain, and where the workforce are willing to bring the industry to it's knees through ongoing industrial action? Do you see what I mean about picking fights now?

I’m genuinely sorry to hear that re. your marriage but, with all due respect, that was said in response to you telling me to “get off my arse”! Frankly that’s rather insulting and utterly laughable given the shift work I do. I physically can’t work from home. I did ask my boss last year if I could sit at home playing train simulator. His response was to swear at me.

Generally I completely agree with you. Working from home isn’t particularly healthy from a mental health perspective. We are, after all, a social species.

And this is why I got prickly about it. I'm fed up of reading or hearing people moan about how some people get to work from home when they can't. Its been a bloody nightmare for many of us. I would much rather be in the office most days of the week to interact & socialise instead of sitting here at my desk at home, cut off from everyone else expect through chuffing Teams.

Yep. I get the sense that’s an issue with trade unions across the board.

It is and it is getting worse. And sometimes political ambitions can blur the judgement of the top table, much to the detriment of the membership. PCS is one such union that suffered badly because of this. So much so that during the merging period between the two pervious unions to create this new union there was concerted effort by a number of activists, myself included to form a brand new one. Sadly we couldn't quite get the traction to make it happen and now we are left with the bag of dead badgers.

Probably none, but that doesn’t mean the current government’s approach to IR is typical or correct. I’m not sure there’s much to tell between Labour and the Tories, given that the current Labour leader is apparently anti trade union (ironically, in the one area I might have found some common ground with labour, he yet again disappoints).

The only real difference in them is the colour of their ties.

Well that’s pot kettle black!

I take no pleasure in seeing people losing their jobs. I was merely turning the tables on the clear delight in the prospect of railway Ts and Cs being attacked emanating from certain posters. The other civil servant posting on this thread is rather worse than you in that regard.

I can assure you that I take zero pleasure in any reduction in living standards or T&Cs for anyone. All that I argue is that now is not the time for this particular fight.

Yes I know I’m there to drive trains - thanks for reminding me. What do you want me to do? Stick a broom handle up my rear end and I’ll sweep the platform as I’m changing ends? (an expression I heard from a true railwayman with 40 years in)

Try a different drink, the tea seems to make you grumpy...

No need for pot banging and rainbows, thanks. I’ll settle for a pay rise. I don’t expect to be liked. I do expect to get paid.

You will get paid, just potentially not quite as much as you'd like. I mean we'd all like a pay rise, preferably one that doesn't see us fall way behind inflation. But there's a little problem of an economic crisis, as well as a global supply chain problem that makes that all the more difficult.

Where have I said I loathe passengers? I’m largely indifferent to them and rarely interact with them. I don’t do a customer facing job so that’s as to be expected.
It’s a little like me accusing you of loathing tax payers…

What do you expect me to do? Perform a dance routine at the end of the platform?

No, just remember that a prolonged period of industrial could have serious consequences on a lot more than just rail workers.

If a little more was invested in the right places it could be so much better. For example a pay rise to match average wage growth in the economy, and no more political footballism over rest day working arrangements at TPE/XC for example.

Hasn't the industry done quite well over the years, with the obvious exception of the last couple?

“Creeping death” a good way of putting it. The objective of the railway unions is to stave that off for as long as possible. What I hate most about the current situation is that it’ll be the low paid guys at the bottom of the food chain who will end up taking a bullet.

There’s a hell of a lot wrong with this country and it’s getting worse.

There is a hell of a lot wrong I agree, but the government needs to tackle things like rampant inflation & the effect on cost of living first.

I actually don’t think the government particularly cares about the railway, and that might work in the unions favour. Bunging train drivers and guards a
modest pay increase to shut them up and stave off negative headlines isn’t that expensive in the scheme of things.

I disagree, the government would love a fight with some unions to show their core supporters they are doing something.

The “minimum service level” may well come in, frankly I’m skeptical as to how effective it will really be. Clearly the government is, too. Otherwise it would have been introduced long ago. It isn’t a magic bullet, especially as far as drivers are concerned, when the railway is so reliant on voluntary overtime (and will continue to be).

Maybe it won't, but the fact that the government are floating the idea should act as a warning that they are digging in for a fight.

I’m not sure there’s any choice in the matter. Standing by and doing nothing won’t get better results, so we might as well dig in.

And I'm not sure digging in right now is the best choice when the government needs a fight. But this is what we disagree on.

 

[mpthomson]

What a ridiculous statement to make.
The wages of public sector workers is a mere drop in the ocean compared to the money that has been scammed out of the system by corruption via MPs, ie ppe scandal, Chris graylings ferries, moody contracts with organisations to work privately in public sector.
Stop getting your opinions from Facebook and the daily mail.
If you genuinely think workers asking for a payrise is the issue then you need to give your head a wobble.

Just as a point of order the annual public sector wage bill in the UK is c£245 billion pounds a year. That's just a little bit more than any alleged corruption.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2022 ==

They might only be working a 3 day week, however they’re at work for over 12 hours, more like 13. Then commuting time. My wife is a nurse. She leaves for work 06.30 and isn’t home until about 20.00. She’s burnt out. As are most of her colleagues so while it sounds great on paper, she’s more knackered than me whose working stupid hour shifts. My jobs a walk in the park compared to nursing. Just have a think on that with your 3 day remark.

Any time nurses are asked or consulted with about this they always (and by a large margin) prefer to work long shifts, mainly due to better quality of life type stuff. I've run something like 7 or 8 consultations on this over the years and the results have always been the same. It's also much better in terms of improving continuity of care for patients and has lowered the number of incidents caused by sloppy or non-existent handovers. A FT nursing contract is the same length in terms of numbers of hours as it was under the three shift system. The issue comes when they have to do overtime on top to cover vacancies/sickness, but that's no different whatever the length of shifts .

 

[Railwaysceptic]

As a train driver who’s prepared to strike to get a fair increase in salary it was said very tongue in cheek. This place is unbelievable

A wide variety of people access this forum (and others too). Some people are obtuse and some have no sense of humour. It's always advisable to put a "smiley" after any use of irony.

 

[Goldfish62]

They might only be working a 3 day week, however they’re at work for over 12 hours, more like 13. Then commuting time. My wife is a nurse. She leaves for work 06.30 and isn’t home until about 20.00. She’s burnt out. As are most of her colleagues so while it sounds great on paper, she’s more knackered than me whose working stupid hour shifts. My jobs a walk in the park compared to nursing. Just have a think on that with your 3 day remark.

I've spent far too many hours sat in hospitals with elderly every unwell parents. I really don't know how the nurses manage to keep going. It's literally just non-stop.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2022 ==

What bugs me is the national obsession with comparing nurses to train drivers!!!

So far on this thread we've had comparisons with:

Nurses
Junior doctors
Commercial pilots
Civil servants
MPs

I'm waiting brain surgeon, North Sea oil rigger, astronaut etc etc.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So far on this thread we've had comparisons with:

Nurses
Junior doctors
Commercial pilots
Civil servants
MPs

See where I have emboldened one item above. Two of these were murdered whilst holding constituency surgeries, don't forget.

 

[Need2]

See where I have emboldened one item above. Two of these were murdered whilst holding constituency surgeries, don't forget.

And your point is?

 

[Exscrew]

See where I have emboldened one item above. Two of these were murdered whilst holding constituency surgeries, don't forget.

And numerous railway staff have passed away in service... its not a competition.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And numerous railway staff have passed away in service... its not a competition.

Perhaps you might want to ask the contributor who felt the need to give a variety of people that question, as I only chose one of his selection made in his posting.

 

[Need2]

Perhaps you might want to ask the contributor who felt the need to give a variety of people that question, as I only chose one of his selection made in his posting.

No, the original poster was saying railway workers jobs had been compared to various other industries in this thread.
It was you who added the ridiculous (but factual) statement about MP’s that has absolutely nothing to do with anything being discussed!
So I’ll ask again, what is your point about the MP’s being murdered?

 

[Clarence Yard]

I can answer that. I suspect because it can be a dangerous occupation. Actually, being a councillor carries the same risk and most Councils now put their new councillors through some degree of personal safety training. But they don’t get paid an MP’s salary!

I’m not sure comparing any job to another is a worthwhile activity here because everyone has different opinions as to the relative worths of different jobs and occupations. So it becomes a bit of a shouting match.

What is more important is that the railway industry is able to employ and retain people to fulfil the tasks that are required to be carried out, irrespective of what others get or don’t get.

Those employees must be remunerated well enough to attract people to be able to carry out their tasks without having to worry about their monetary situation. Of course this all has to be paid for and people have different opinions as to how it should be paid for, depending on their own view. But on the railway it only comes three ways, by the farebox, by Government funding, or by making savings - usually (but not exclusively) by workforce reductions.

 

[westv]

Perhaps you might want to ask the contributor who felt the need to give a variety of people that question, as I only chose one of his selection made in his posting.

All they were doing was listing the jobs already quoted by others.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

All they were doing was listing the jobs already quoted by others.

Indeed, your posting comes as a timely reminder that one should not try to expand upon matters raised by other contributors...

 

[winks]

From the telegraph today:

Take it or leave it, Network Rail tells striking workers​

An inflation-busting pay offer ‘is not realistic’ says rail chief, as more strikes loom

ByOliver Gill, CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT 18 July 2022 • 1:07pm
Network Rail has insisted it will not improve its pay deal for staff in an ultimatum that raises the spectre of strike action lasting throughout the summer and into the autumn.
Andrew Haines, chief executive of the state-backed owner of tracks and stations, has today told staff that there are "no significantly better deals".
In an internal email to staff, seen by The Telegraph, Mr Haines said that last week’s pay offer of an average of 5pc is the best Network Rail can offer.
“Anyone who truly believes that there can be a pay offer that meets or exceeds the highest levels of inflation for a generation, is not being realistic,” he said.
The Rail, Maritime and Transport workers union (RMT), the protagonist of the industrial action to date, rejected the Network Rail deal and announced a fresh wave of walkouts on July 27, and August 18 and 20.
Drivers union Aslef will also strike on July 30.
Mr Haines continued: “I have to level with you; there are no significantly better deals out there for us right now. I am sorry, I know that’s not what you want to hear with inflation as high as it is. But it is true.
“Commuters and business travellers show no signs of returning to their pre-pandemic travel habits. And that’s what forms the backbone of the railway’s fares income.
“In fact, it’s worse than that. If talks break down now, our financial situation gets worse. The cost of strike action has already exceeded £100m - as well as causing misery for millions of passengers and harming the reputation of our railway. Each of those pounds lost is a pound we can no longer give to you through a pay offer.

Support for rail strikes rises after week of working from home

A poll found 45 per cent of people now support the rail strikes following a stint of home working

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Alex1971]

From the telegraph today:

Take it or leave it, Network Rail tells striking workers​

An inflation-busting pay offer ‘is not realistic’ says rail chief, as more strikes loom

ByOliver Gill, CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT 18 July 2022 • 1:07pm
Network Rail has insisted it will not improve its pay deal for staff in an ultimatum that raises the spectre of strike action lasting throughout the summer and into the autumn.
Andrew Haines, chief executive of the state-backed owner of tracks and stations, has today told staff that there are "no significantly better deals".
In an internal email to staff, seen by The Telegraph, Mr Haines said that last week’s pay offer of an average of 5pc is the best Network Rail can offer.
“Anyone who truly believes that there can be a pay offer that meets or exceeds the highest levels of inflation for a generation, is not being realistic,” he said.
The Rail, Maritime and Transport workers union (RMT), the protagonist of the industrial action to date, rejected the Network Rail deal and announced a fresh wave of walkouts on July 27, and August 18 and 20.
Drivers union Aslef will also strike on July 30.
Mr Haines continued: “I have to level with you; there are no significantly better deals out there for us right now. I am sorry, I know that’s not what you want to hear with inflation as high as it is. But it is true.
“Commuters and business travellers show no signs of returning to their pre-pandemic travel habits. And that’s what forms the backbone of the railway’s fares income.
“In fact, it’s worse than that. If talks break down now, our financial situation gets worse. The cost of strike action has already exceeded £100m - as well as causing misery for millions of passengers and harming the reputation of our railway. Each of those pounds lost is a pound we can no longer give to you through a pay offer.

[UR

Does this mean that Haines & co are dropping their ideas on weekend working/rostering, chopping night rates etc, or did the torygraph run out of ink?

 

[YorkshireBear]

From the telegraph today:

Take it or leave it, Network Rail tells striking workers​

An inflation-busting pay offer ‘is not realistic’ says rail chief, as more strikes loom

ByOliver Gill, CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT 18 July 2022 • 1:07pm
Network Rail has insisted it will not improve its pay deal for staff in an ultimatum that raises the spectre of strike action lasting throughout the summer and into the autumn.
Andrew Haines, chief executive of the state-backed owner of tracks and stations, has today told staff that there are "no significantly better deals".
In an internal email to staff, seen by The Telegraph, Mr Haines said that last week’s pay offer of an average of 5pc is the best Network Rail can offer.
“Anyone who truly believes that there can be a pay offer that meets or exceeds the highest levels of inflation for a generation, is not being realistic,” he said.
The Rail, Maritime and Transport workers union (RMT), the protagonist of the industrial action to date, rejected the Network Rail deal and announced a fresh wave of walkouts on July 27, and August 18 and 20.
Drivers union Aslef will also strike on July 30.
Mr Haines continued: “I have to level with you; there are no significantly better deals out there for us right now. I am sorry, I know that’s not what you want to hear with inflation as high as it is. But it is true.
“Commuters and business travellers show no signs of returning to their pre-pandemic travel habits. And that’s what forms the backbone of the railway’s fares income.
“In fact, it’s worse than that. If talks break down now, our financial situation gets worse. The cost of strike action has already exceeded £100m - as well as causing misery for millions of passengers and harming the reputation of our railway. Each of those pounds lost is a pound we can no longer give to you through a pay offer.

Support for rail strikes rises after week of working from home

A poll found 45 per cent of people now support the rail strikes following a stint of home working

www.telegraph.co.uk

The tone from Mr Haines has definitely softened a bit there.

Assuming he's telling the truth I don't know where we go from here, if another higher offer came now they would look so weak so I suspect he may now be telling the truth.

From speaking around, it seems the pay isn't really the issue to those voting it's the huge threat of changes to maintenance.

I will be interested to see what the TSSA do having not yet actually confirmed any strike action yet.

 

[railfan99]

Well there are two things to consider. Firstly not all competitive bus / coach journeys are 'double' rail times. It depends on the journey - so as an example central Scotland to Aberdeen and Inverness are competitive with the trains - and journeys to Inverness will become faster by road when the A9 is dualled (public expenditure on a road competing with any expenditure on the railway).

The other thing to consider is that if the railway offers so much better better convnenience - then what is that worth in terms of fare increases to cover the railway cost. Or should questions be asked: could the buses and coaches be systemically improved at better value to the taxpayer and economy.

Much as I enjoy visiting Kathmandu and Manila (but don't enjoy Jakarta - horrible), these three cities are examples, albeit extreme, as to what one ends up with if there are very few (or none: Kathmandu) railways. Jakarta is by far the worst.

Be careful what you wish for!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2022 ==

We are lucky in Europe to consider a passenger service essential.
In some populous parts of Western nations, a passenger rail service has not been considered necessary for decades.
My daughter lives in Nashville. There is no passenger rail service to any other state. Only one suburban peak hour line.
Passenger services only just touch Tennessee which has nearly as big land area as England!!

Agree, and repeated or consecutive strikes are a great way to drive passengers away from using mass transit/ intercity or branch line railways. Many never return!

Demands for wages to 'match inflation' unfortunately tend to increase the latter even more: wage-price spiral. Better perhaps if government cuts back on deskbound public service (non customer-facing) but that incurs redundancy payouts. Ideally, taxes can then be reduced a little, which encourages wealth creation. (But I lack all the answers).

Look at what's occurred in say Argentina over the years. It's an economic basket case and doesn't have many railways left, although many years ago I was fortunate to travel on some that are now closed. Much of South America, bar Chile, is in a similar boat.

 

[tommy2215]

I will be interested to see what the TSSA do having not yet actually confirmed any strike action yet.

Avanti TSSA members will be striking on 27th July and GWR ones on 30th July.

 

[Mag_seven]

Shapps has just been on the radio and I get the impression he has no will to resolve these disputes anytime soon. If anything the rhetoric is getting tougher from the government / employer side. Public sector pay awards are due to be announced today and I can't see them being well received.

 

[carriageline]

I’m not sure anyone expects an inflation matching, nevermind beating pay deal. I certainly don’t, nor anyone I speak to at NR.

The maintenance stuff is the biggest killer at the moment, often than that the payrise is pretty close to what people want.

 

[yorksrob]

The hope is that the industry can quietly ditch some of the more contentious changes to T&C's whilst offering the 5% or thereabouts pay rise which seems to have been accepted elsewhere on the railway.

Then the unions can say "look, we've got all these bad changes to T&C's dropped" while government can say "look, we've held them to near the standard 5% public sector pay rise".

 

[Bantamzen]

The hope is that the industry can quietly ditch some of the more contentious changes to T&C's whilst offering the 5% or thereabouts pay rise which seems to have been accepted elsewhere on the railway.

Then the unions can say "look, we've got all these bad changes to T&C's dropped" while government can say "look, we've held them to near the standard 5% public sector pay rise".

Unless BoJo has something more up his sleeve I already know what pay rise is, 2% & £145 non-consolidated one off payment. And it will be the same for many of my colleagues as you'll note the wording in the FT is "an average of 5%", meaning it almost certainly won't be 5% across the board.

 

[carriageline]

Unless BoJo has something more up his sleeve I already know what pay rise is, 2% & £145 non-consolidated one off payment. And it will be the same for many of my colleagues as you'll note the wording in the FT is "an average of 5%", meaning it almost certainly won't be 5% across the board.

And if that’s the case, that’s pretty disgusting. How he expects that to satisfy people is beyond me, nor stave off strikes.

And the £145 payment, that’s a serious kick in the teeth…

 

[Mag_seven]

The maintenance stuff is the biggest killer at the moment, often than that the payrise is pretty close to what people want.

Yet last week Mick Lynch was saying that it was the threat of compulsory redundancies that was the sticking point. Is it true that that threat has now been removed?

 

[yorksrob]

Unless BoJo has something more up his sleeve I already know what pay rise is, 2% & £145 non-consolidated one off payment. And it will be the same for many of my colleagues as you'll note the wording in the FT is "an average of 5%", meaning it almost certainly won't be 5% across the board.

Indeed it won't (council employees won't be getting anywhere near for example).

Nevertheless, the railway unions have more bargaining power and the ability to create trouble for the new PM, so it might be a position with consolidating around.

 

[Bantamzen]

And if that’s the case, that’s pretty disgusting. How he expects that to satisfy people is beyond me, nor stave off strikes.

And the £145 payment, that’s a serious kick in the teeth…

Its pretty poor to say the least, PCS have already balloted the membership on the possibility of action up to and including strikes & although it came back some 80% in favour, only 45% voted so it won't be legal.

Indeed it won't (council employees won't be getting anywhere near for example).

Nevertheless, the railway unions have more bargaining power and the ability to create trouble for the new PM, so it might be a position with consolidating around.

They do, but what is announced today will set the tone going forward with that dispute, and I suspect the government are going to make things harder to resolve.

 

[yorksrob]

Its pretty poor to say the least, PCS have already balloted the membership on the possibility of action up to and including strikes & although it came back some 80% in favour, only 45% voted so it won't be legal.


They do, but what is announced today will set the tone going forward with that dispute, and I suspect the government are going to make things harder to resolve.

At the moment, the Tory party are living in an echo chamber where they are the centre of the universe. However when the realities of government kick in for the new PM, they should realise that long industrial disputes inconveniencing the general population have the potential to become a "who governs Britain" type moment, with the electorate potentially deciding "clearly not you".