Avanti West Coast cancellations

[duncanp]

Walkup tickets can be used with a Standard Premium upgrade. The only issue is that there is no guarantee the upgrade will be available - but then again, in a sense that is no different to the risk of First being full.

A fat lot of good that is - the upgrade should be available on all trains and ideally available to purchase on line as well, in the same way that weekend first was.

Looking at the Avanti website, they say that a Standard Premium upgrade is £25.

This is more than the £20 Weekend First supplement for Birmingham to London, which itself was an increase from the £10 under Virgin Trains.

So you are paying more, and getting less service for it.

 

[TheHovisKid]

The only people who win are those who are now able to take advantage of First Class seating for a reasonable price on weekdays.

That's how it's billed on the train although it sounds a bit cringey. They're mentioning chargers at every seat but that's coming in Standard anyway at refurb!

Presumably there's more money in that than empty FC though?

It'd be interesting to see before-and-after figures for Standard/First and Standard/Premium/First. Which are the Premium punters coming from? Upgrades or downgrades?

 

[Howardh]

I've written this before and I'll write it again as, yet again, I'm looking for a couple of days in or around London (Sun > Tues) and I will totally avoid Avanti. Options are to fly (yes, even battling with the airport is better than battling with Avanti) which isn't particulary green, Manchester/Crewe/London via Northern and LNW, or find myself in Leeds or Sheffield and go that way.

ABA - Anything But Avanti.

 

[M&NEJ]

I accept this entirely. It's unfortunate, but not at all surprising, that your friend wasn't advised of their eligibility for re-routing.

What is "eligibility for re-routing"? I've been claiming delay/repay for years if delayed but I've never come across this one, presumably it applies if you're about to be delayed?

I've got London "international" tickets, to go with Avanti in a couple of weeks for a Eurostar connection, so I'd be interested to know if I have any bargaining power in the event of delays and cancellations!

 

[philosopher]

Their fleet isn't big enough to deliver a two hourly Glasgow service. The current service only works as it's a once a day extension, effectively running in 'marginal time'. Similarly to their Bradford, Skipton, Sunderland and Stirling services.

I don't think XC will ever be returning to their 2 hourly Glasgow service, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of other operators stepping in.

There is always the option of LNER or Lumo to Edinburgh then changing onto a Scotrail service to Glasgow.

 

[43096]

This is all reminiscent of other TOCs when they had insufficient staff for weekend services and would bin off the services on the day, rather than cancel beforehand.

That is my major criticism. Over optimistic rostering. In summer if you are likely to be short two to three weeks out, you probably will be on the day so cancel the trains well before the day, not on the day itself. If that means you have spare train crew staff, well that helps you manage the on the day shortages.

In terms of the long distance TOCs, GWR and LNER have enough staff to deliver the current service, Cross Country and East Midlands are almost in the same position but Avanti and TPE haven’t enough staff and what makes those two even worse is their tight diagramming and, in the case of TPE, tight route knowledge. So when it goes wrong, it really goes wrong! Staff also get worn down quicker if they are racing around.

GWR were in exactly the same position as Avanti until they could recruit enough staff (the DfT authorised a huge increase in drivers there) and, irrespective of who is in charge of the TOC, until Avanti get into the position of having enough productive staff, it is going to be grim.

Personally I would abandon this DfT inspired quest for the ultimate in train crew efficiency (they go through your diagrams before or even after award to try and reduce the numbers) which FG has been rather too good at and go back to what happened in a couple of previous franchise competitions where a minimum number of train crew, by grade, had to employed at any one time.

Given that today is the reduced timetable that should be capable of being delivered reliably (otherwise why implement it) and that demonstrably it isn't being delivered and has failed at the first attempt, some hard decisions are needed. It is - to borrow a phrase from Malcolm Tucker - an omnishambles.

Any competent owning group would be summoning the Ops Director (and very likely the MD as well) to HQ on Monday morning and telling them that they need to find another job. If First aren't prepared to do that, then Steve Montgomery needs to be called into the DfT and be told that First/Avanti's contract is terminated and that OLR will take over.

All of their operations are either failing badly currently (TPE, Avanti) or have been in a similar position in recent times (GWR, SWR) - and SWR are only getting away with it now as a result of the reduced commuter numbers post Covid, otherwise they would be (still) in a similar position. The problem the Aberdeen bus bandits have is a lack of credible people to take over - it was plain from the issues at GWR, SWR and TPE that there is shortage of management talent capable of fixing issues.

 

[XAM2175]

What is "eligibility for re-routing"? I've been claiming delay/repay for years if delayed but I've never come across this one, presumably it applies if you're about to be delayed?

I've got London "international" tickets, to go with Avanti in a couple of weeks for a Eurostar connection, so I'd be interested to know if I have any bargaining power in the event of delays and cancellations!

Regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 on Rail Passenger's Rights and Obligations (PRO) has applied to domestic rail journeys in Great Britain since 4 December 2019, and remains in effect following Brexit. Article 16 reads:

Reimbursement and re-routing
Where it is reasonably to be expected that the delay in the arrival at the final destination under the transport contract will be more than 60 minutes, the passenger shall immediately have the choice between:
(a) reimbursement of the full cost of the ticket, under the conditions by which it was paid, for the part or parts of his or her journey not made and for the part or parts already made if the journey is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger’s original travel plan, together with, when relevant, a return service to the first point of departure at the earliest opportunity. The payment of the reimbursement shall be made under the same conditions as the payment for compensation referred to in Article 17; or
(b) continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at the earliest opportunity; or
(c) continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience.

These rights are above and beyond the NRCoT, but it should be noted that awareness is very limited and I don't believe they've really been tested yet (although they've applied to international journeys since 2009). They also don't explicitly create an automatic right for you to re-route yourself, so you should be prepared to buy new tickets for your alternate route and claim the cost back later.

The Government's have a page on it here:

Guidance on regulation No 1371/2007 on rail passengers' rights and obligations

www.gov.uk

In your specific case you obviously have CIV protections for your connection in London regardless, but you could attempt to rely on the PRO rights if you thought they would still get you to London faster than Avanti would.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we try and keep discussion on this thread to Avanti train crew related cancellations. Other Avanti subjects can to be discussed on other Avanti threads.

 

[GordonT]

Some terrible feedback from Avanti's perspective on Twitter such as:

"Your disgrace of a company has ruined my entire weekend and will be costing me hundreds of pounds in cancellation costs for restaurants etc everyone in this country should hate and despise Avanti for the crooks that they are"

 

[Merseysider]

Looks like the last Manchester to London train of the night (2035) has been cancelled yet again, and Avanti’s punters paying up to £68.60 for the privilege will once more be upgraded to a bus arriving after midnight. Delightful. And a complete clusterF*.

 

[m0ffy]

Both legs of my TAM-EUS-TAM were cancelled today, causing a total delay of around 90 minutes. They’re not having a good day.

 

[dk1]

Some terrible feedback from Avanti's perspective on Twitter such as:

"Your disgrace of a company has ruined my entire weekend and will be costing me hundreds of pounds in cancellation costs for restaurants etc everyone in this country should hate and despise Avanti for the crooks that they are"

He/she sounds a tad grumpy.

 

[duncanp]

He/she sounds a tad grumpy.

Who wouldn't be grumpy if your entire weekend has been ruined by this apology for a train company.

And if someone has suffered considerable consequential loss (eg hotel bookings, theatre tickets etc) that is not going to be reimbursed, it is not exactly going to encourage them to make a repeat booking in the future.

 

[317 forever]

Both legs of my TAM-EUS-TAM were cancelled today, causing a total delay of around 90 minutes. They’re not having a good day.

So even the emergency reduced timetable is not leading to a reliable service.

 

[dk1]

Who wouldn't be grumpy if your entire weekend has been ruined by this apology for a train company.

And if someone has suffered considerable consequential loss (eg hotel bookings, theatre tickets etc) that is not going to be reimbursed, it is not exactly going to encourage them to make a repeat booking in the future.

I just think every form of transport is going to disappoint this summer whether it be by rail, road, air or sea. My mates car has just given up the ghost with a £1600 & rising repair bill & delays getting parts. Avanti with its ongoing staffing issues is no different to those using airports & ferry ports & delays/cancellations have to be expected this year unfortunately.

 

[peter166]

To be clear, you're objecting to other FC ticket holders sitting in a FC seat in a FC coach, to the seating capacity of that vehicle?

What an arrogant & patronising comment to make !

 

[GordonT]

He/she sounds a tad grumpy.

It was a he and a further tweet from him reads: "You clearly do cancel trains for the sake of it you would have known days in advance that there would not be enough staff yet you cancel last minute. Avanti is a disgrace and anyone who works for them should be ashamed of themselves."

 

[dk1]

It was a he and a further tweet from him reads: "You clearly do cancel trains for the sake of it you would have known days in advance that there would not be enough staff yet you cancel last minute. Avanti is a disgrace and anyone who works for them should be ashamed of themselves."

Not sure why the staff would be ashamed of themselves but hey-Ho, he’s really going into raving rant mode.

 

[Watershed]

I just think every form of transport is going to disappoint this summer whether it be by rail, road, air or sea. My mates car has just given up the ghost with a £1600 & rising repair bill & delays getting parts. Avanti with its ongoing staffing issues is no different to those using airports & ferry ports & delays/cancellations have to be expected this year unfortunately.

There are plenty of other TOCs that aren't suffering from the same issues. LNER hasn't cancelled a single train today. The rail industry shouldn't seek to become the lowest common denominator...

 

[duncanp]

There are plenty of other TOCs that aren't suffering from the same issues. LNER hasn't cancelled a single train today. The rail industry shouldn't seek to become the lowest common denominator...

The question is then why LNER can get by without cancelling a single train, and yet Avanti has trouble running even a reduced timetable.

If it involves paying higher salaries to improve recruitment and retention, then so be it.

 

[Furrball]

Of course the Avanti website still reports Good Service!

 

[Some guy]

Their fleet isn't big enough to deliver a two hourly Glasgow service. The current service only works as it's a once a day extension, effectively running in 'marginal time'. Similarly to their Bradford, Skipton, Sunderland and Stirling services.

I don't think XC will ever be returning to their 2 hourly Glasgow service, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of other operators stepping in.

The most logical thing would be for TPE Newcastle Edinburgh services to extend to Glasgow as that’s where the depot is based so it saved pass rides for crew

 

[the sniper]

Has Schapps had anything to say about this? A a side issue has anyone questioned the Tory candidates about the state of the railways - TPE and Avanti in particular?

I'm sure Avanti management are the kind of 'hardworking' right sort who wouldn't attract the ire of the Tories, no matter what damage they do. The monkey/organ grinder relationship is a special one.

It was a he and a further tweet from him reads: "You clearly do cancel trains for the sake of it you would have known days in advance that there would not be enough staff yet you cancel last minute. Avanti is a disgrace and anyone who works for them should be ashamed of themselves."

Well now he sounds rather silly.

 

[dk1]

There are plenty of other TOCs that aren't suffering from the same issues. LNER hasn't cancelled a single train today. The rail industry shouldn't seek to become the lowest common denominator...

I thought it had been well documented that training wasn’t great during Covid on AWC then there was the en-mass group of drivers who decided on early retirement. Add to that a little industrial unrest & it’s not going to be a happy ship.

 

[TheHovisKid]

What an arrogant & patronising comment to make !

How so?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Any competent owning group would be summoning the Ops Director (and very likely the MD as well) to HQ on Monday morning and telling them that they need to find another job. If First aren't prepared to do that, then Steve Montgomery needs to be called into the DfT and be told that First/Avanti's contract is terminated and that OLR will take over.

All of their operations are either failing badly currently (TPE, Avanti) or have been in a similar position in recent times (GWR, SWR) - and SWR are only getting away with it now as a result of the reduced commuter numbers post Covid, otherwise they would be (still) in a similar position. The problem the Aberdeen bus bandits have is a lack of credible people to take over - it was plain from the issues at GWR, SWR and TPE that there is shortage of management talent capable of fixing issues.

FG is run a bit more on a devolved basis then the Lockheed/Finch days and I suspect, if I know Steve, that the necessary conversation has already been arranged. Steve is a former Ops man so it is going to be very uncomfortable for those involved.

But this isn’t just a FG situation. Just about every contest in recent years the winning bid has seen reductions in crew or, in the case of GNTL, a serious underestimate of the numbers required. This is something that the DfT has encouraged and indeed, in some cases, effectively mandated. Then it all has to be sorted out after the event, when it, inevitably, goes wrong.

So now you tell Pete (“Ernst Stavro”) Wilkinson or his team that if you want an improvement in the resource levels that you wanted and agreed to, it’s going to cost you. Recently, with things being tighter than hitherto, that has become a harder thing for them to accept. So you have to muddle along.

But when you go to a reduced timetable and can’t even resource that, that is very poor.

 

[peter166]

Given that today is the reduced timetable that should be capable of being delivered reliably (otherwise why implement it) and that demonstrably it isn't being delivered and has failed at the first attempt, some hard decisions are needed. It is - to borrow a phrase from Malcolm Tucker - an omnishambles.

Any competent owning group would be summoning the Ops Director (and very likely the MD as well) to HQ on Monday morning and telling them that they need to find another job. If First aren't prepared to do that, then Steve Montgomery needs to be called into the DfT and be told that First/Avanti's contract is terminated and that OLR will take over.

All of their operations are either failing badly currently (TPE, Avanti) or have been in a similar position in recent times (GWR, SWR) - and SWR are only getting away with it now as a result of the reduced commuter numbers post Covid, otherwise they would be (still) in a similar position. The problem the Aberdeen bus bandits have is a lack of credible people to take over - it was plain from the issues at GWR, SWR and TPE that there is shortage of management talent capable of fixing issues.

Totally agree with your commentary. MD First Rail Steve Montgomery & MD Avanti West Coast Phil Whittingham both need to be held accountable and resign & the DfT/OLR takeover ASAP

 

[duncanp]

Totally agree with your commentary. MD First Rail Steve Montgomery & MD Avanti West Coast Phil Whittingham both need to be held accountable and resign & the DfT/OLR takeover ASAP

Avanti say that they expect trains from Birmingham to London to be busy between 9pm and midnight during the Commonwealth Games.

What's the betting that the last few Birmingham to London services are cancelled at some point during the games, leaving hundreds stranded at New Street station?

..or that they tell everyone to **** off to Moor Street just in time to see the last train to Marylebone (21:18) disappearing into the distance.

 

[Hadders]

I’d have thought it’d be sensible for someone (DfT or Commonwealth Games organisers) to enquire about getting WMT to run a couple of late night trains from Birmingham to Euston.

12 car 350s calling International, Coventry, Rugby, Milton Keynes. Be more reliable than Avanti.

 

[Howardh]

I’d have thought it’d be sensible for someone (DfT or Commonwealth Games organisers) to enquire about getting WMT to run a couple of late night trains from Birmingham to Euston.

12 car 350s calling International, Coventry, Rugby, Milton Keynes. Be more reliable than Avanti.

No idea how Manchester is served by Cross Country, on Avanti one would need at least one change (Stafford) and that would be on to a cancelled train from Euston. Weekend travel to the Games anyone??