Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[theageofthetra]

They have trains running so it’s very likely that the drivers rostered to work are in but they are short of volunteers to cover any vacant turns.

It's a holiday weekend in Scotland isn't it? How much would that affect crew availability, as staff would in effect have 3 days off if not rostered to work Sun & Mon?

 

[SJN]

It's a holiday weekend in Scotland isn't it? How much would that affect crew availability, as staff would in effect have 3 days off if not rostered to work Sun & Mon?

Most railway staff don’t get bank holidays off unless it falls on an existing rest day apart from Christmas & boxing day.

 

[JoeyB]

It is being explained, in full, as it has to be. But I’m afraid that some of the information is not getting through the union channels, and some of what is getting through is being presented in a way that is, let’s say, clouded a little.

There is a whole host of information explaining the detail on the internal website. But if you need further explanation, talk to your line manager, and if that doesn’t satisfy you, keep going up the chain.

Having said that I will check to make sure everything is clear and fully available to everyone affected.

Thank you, I know people who haven't been able to find the information, and where they can find information, they aren't able to question and scrutinise it using their own expertise and experience of the railway.

Tim Shovellor and Andrew Haines have sent out plenty of communication, but we haven't seen a clear explanation. I appreciate it may be out there somewhere, but it's not getting through (in my experience).

 

[Bertie the bus]

Such extraordinary bitterness. I can assure you plenty of people on £65k+ still work overtime…

Such a stupid statement. How is pointing out that if you pay staff enough to not have to work overtime then relying on staff working overtime to provide a service is complete nonsense bitterness?

 

[carriageline]

Grant Shapps has let out a belter of a tweet. It could be his “chief twitterer” has misunderstood the instruction, he’s being a bit hyperbolic, or he really wants to smash T&Cs…

UNOFFICIAL STRIKES: Passengers using Avanti West services should expect disruption today. Archaic rules from 1919 mean working on rest days is voluntary. Unions now stopping drivers volunteering - causing misery for public & staff who won't get paid. We MUST modernise rail.

Archaic that staff have to VOLUNTEER to work on their days off, and they can’t be forced?

If you take that tweet on face value, that’s incredibly concerning…

 

[66701GBRF]

I thought shatts wanted to stop drivers doing OT following strikes anyway??

 

[Sputnik89]

You have to hand it to Shapps in a way- he says the quiet parts out loud.

He wants employers to be able to force employees to work on their days off, at the employers sole decision. A politer form of slavery.

 

[43066]

Such a stupid statement. How is pointing out that if you pay staff enough to not have to work overtime then relying on staff working overtime to provide a service is complete nonsense bitterness?

As I have said people on that salary do work overtime. Of course the TOCs could employ enough staff not to rely on overtime in the first place, but you just can’t see beyond what drivers get paid…

 

[Starmill]

Yes I’m expecting fire and rehire. I’m really really worried. In fact I’m terrified, this has been the most unsettling and depressing period of my life.

Fire and rehire is relatively unlikely, at least in the short term, as it would be much too disruptive. It's more likely that they will simply offer new contracts and the slightly higher pay rates, and all new starters will be put on them. They will then wait out the people still on legacy contracts.

 

[Carlisle]

You have to hand it to Shapps in a way- he says the quiet parts out loud.

He wants employers to be able to force employees to work on their days off, at the employers sole decision. A politer form of slavery.

Your talking dramatic bunkum,
The worst he’s suggesting is that it may be a coordinated campaign of refusal to work rest days .

 

[baz962]

That’s not how ‘fire and rehire’ is actually applied though. They don’t sack you from the company altogether first and then make you reapply for your job as a new start, they present you with a new contract with the terms and conditions they want changed and say sign this by (date) or your current contract becomes void and you no longer have a job. That’s how Asda and British Gas did it.

Some people may be lucky to be in a position to just walk away and find another job if this happens. Personally if they do this I’ll have no choice but to sign up. I am a lifelong railwayman, I have no experience of any jobs outside the railway and have no exam qualifications or any other skills. The chances of me getting a job outside the railway above toilet cleaner level are basically zero. At that point I’d be looking at losing my house and not being able to feed my kids or keep them warm in the winter. Unless the new contract is absolutely awful (and I mean really, really terrible) I would have to sign it. What other choice would I have?

Some lorry drivers are now nudging over 50k . You are right and of course depends how bad the new terms are. But if you can earn similar or slightly less for no nights or weekends and not having to know the rulebook inside out and not get downloaded or get put on the SIM , not to mention the wons etc , then I'm sure plenty would leave or retire early.

 

[Starmill]

Proposing staff work more hours for the same salary is immoral and debasing.

Is it? Surely it's fairer than a cash pay cut. Perhaps it is not to your own preference but is "immoral and debasing" really a sensible description?

 

[Dunnideer]

Some lorry drivers are now nudging over 50k . You are right and of course depends how bad the new terms are. But if you can earn similar or slightly less for no nights or weekends and not having to know the rulebook inside out and not get downloaded or get put on the SIM , not to mention the wons etc , then I'm sure plenty would leave or retire early.

I’m seriously considering doing the C+E licence soon. Just in case. Been watching some truckers on Youtube and although there are clearly downsides, it does look like a job I could do if I could get a foot in the door.

 

[Starmill]

Your talking dramatic bunkum,
The worst he’s suggesting is that it may be a coordinated campaign of refusal to work rest days .

That's not unofficial strike action.

Grant Shapps has let out a belter of a tweet. It could be his “chief twitterer” has misunderstood the instruction, he’s being a bit hyperbolic, or he really wants to smash T&Cs…


Archaic that staff have to VOLUNTEER to work on their days off, and they can’t be forced?

If you take that tweet on face value, that’s incredibly concerning…

That's a breathtaking accusation I must say. By definition to strike is to be in breach of one's contract of service.

 

[Annetts key]

What is the important issue for signallers?

I don’t know, I’m not a signaller. Of the small number of signallers that I have spoken to, they appeared to be happy to continue industrial action.

This is not true. Everything has been explained and clarified. In some cases multiple times. Having been involved in negotiations with unions more times than I care to remember (albeit not these negotiations), it is the first priority of the ‘management’ side to make sure the ‘staff’ side fully understand what is being presented to them. And, I’m sorry to say, it is quite common for union reps to say they understand what they have been offered, and then claim subsequently that they don’t. Sometimes this is a delaying tactic, and I would bet a few quid thatthis has been deployed in this negotiation.

I know and speak to some of the RMT negotiating team for maintenance. You admit to not being involved with these negotiations. So how would you know what questions have been asked, and which have been answered. Throughout the talks, the RMT negotiating team have asked lots of questions. Many of which have not been answered in sufficient detail. Written questions have been submitted, with long periods with no answers.

Regarding staff who are contracted to 40 hours contracts (former Amey), unless the situation has been resolved in the last couple of weeks (holidays have interrupted communications), the company were unable to explain how they would be affected if they wanted to move to the IMC 25 contract (based on the GTRM/Carillion T&Cs).

The existing organisation has well documented templated organisation charts. Where are the templated organisation charts for the new organisation?

When Paul Rutter was asked about welders FPL testing points, he appeared not to know anything much about how this is done on HPSA POE, and maintained that there aren’t many in service. Considering that HPSA points are now made by Network Rail, that’s a very funny answer.

When asked what happens if the FPL test done by welders does not pass, the answer was that S&T would be called. But if there are no S&T booked to the job, where are they coming from? If there are S&T on duty somewhere, they will likely be tasked with other work, which could be twenty miles or more away.

Which is not true. Read the documents more carefully.

And, as you know, scheduled maintenance is just one part of maintenance activity.

Yes, MST work is only one part. But MST is a significant part of some maintenance functions. So is it incorrect that there is a substantial reduction in MST work then?

This is extracted directly from a Network Rail document:

50% REDUCTION IN MST (MAINLY FREQUENCY)

Now I agree that different engineering functions are affected differently.
Hence for track, the current MSTs drop from 37000 to a proposed 19000, 50% reduction.
For S&T, the current MSTs drop from 1040000 to a proposed 600000, a 40% reduction. Some functions are less badly affected.

Do you really, honestly think it appropriate for some signals to have their frequency of maintenance drop to once every four years (I’m told that this applies to LED banner signals)?

 

[Fokx]

With railway management bosses like Avanti and Shapps posting derogatory and false comments about their staff on social media it’s no surprise they’re struggling to find volunteers for overtime.

If I worked for Avanti, I’d be pulling all my future rest days, working my rostered hours and not a minute more. The good will ship has well and truly sailed

 

[Carlisle]

That's not unofficial strike action.


That's a breathtaking accusation I must say. By definition to strike is to be in breach of one's contract of service.

Indeed as pointed out by another poster, it’d be considered Industrial Action if found to be organised.

With railway management bosses like Avanti and Shapps posting derogatory and false comments about their staff on social media it’s no surprise they’re struggling to find volunteers for overtime.

If I worked for Avanti, I’d be pulling all my future rest days, working my rostered hours and not a minute more. The good will ship has well and truly sailed

You seen remarkably keen on industrial action for someone who’s previously said your job offers the best conditions you’ve encountered in any job so far.

 

[Starmill]

You seen remarkably keen on industrial action for someone who’s previously said your job offers the best conditions you’ve encountered in any job so far.

To be fair if an employer puts a statement out to the media which condemns their employees that's a strong statement to me that their relationship has permanently broken down. What do you expect in that situation?

Do you really, honestly think it appropriate for some signals to have their frequency of maintenance drop to once every four years (I’m told that this applies to LED banner signals)?

Is there an issue with this? Lots of resources have gone into designing and specifying the new equipment specifically so that it doesn't need as much labour-intensive maintenance. Surely that's a good thing.

 

[Shrop]

Such extraordinary bitterness. I can assure you plenty of people on £65k+ still work overtime…

This point is key to whether or not strikers get public sympathy. Nobody minds people on £65k working overtime. But a lot of people mind people on £65k working overtime and then going on strike because they claim their pay isn't keeping up with the cost of living.

Yes, there are other reasons for going on strike, but a lot of people earning far, far less than £65k, let alone overtime on top, are having their own livelihoods threatened by the strikes which prevent them from being able to get to work. £65k plus overtime is something best kept quiet if you want public sympathy.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

It's often claimed, particularly by the unions, that money raised by the UK franchises goes to the European owners of the TOCs to pay for the development of their "local" franchises. Is this actually true, and if not, why isn't it exposed as being so?

it’s sort of true. The owning company, if it makes profit, will use that profit however it chooses. If the owning company is a ’foreign’ National railway, then profit made here can and will be sent to the parent company. It would be pretty difficult to demonstrate that profit here directly led to development of “local” railway abroad though.

Conversely, if the operation here loses money, then the ‘foreign’ railway is subsidising our railway. Abellio did precisely this to an eye watering degree Pre Covid. Hundreds of millions.

Thank you ... so why isn't this made clear when it's raised?

 

[Fokx]

You seen remarkably keen on industrial action for someone who’s previously said your job offers the best conditions you’ve encountered in any job so far.

Good memory!
Yes my current job on the railway offers the best conditions for any job I’ve personally had so far, but at the same time the said conditions are planned to be cut.
I’m being almost weaponised/villainised by both the government and right wing media, and the general attitude in the work place is extremely sour. There’s been a complete breakdown in employee satisfaction and relations. I have never worked in a company where the atmosphere is that not a single person cares, and the trickles from the top down throughout all areas of the business. We didn’t even get a ‘happy Christmas’ email this year from the MD, let alone the usual small gift, or even a card. However, we’ve have had several about unsolicited offers from investment companies wanting to buy the owning group

It’s not all sunshine and roses sadly!

 

[Annetts key]

Is there an issue with this? Lots of resources have gone into designing and specifying the new equipment specifically so that it doesn't need as much labour-intensive maintenance. Surely that's a good thing.

I have no problem with more reliable equipment being used. However, preventative maintenance is designed to try to pick up problems before the condition of the equipment deteriorates and causes a failure.

With optical systems like signals, the lenses should be cleaned regularly to prevent any significant reduction in light output. And to check if there are any obstructions such as vegetation that may reduce the sighting distance of the signal. The mechanical fixings should also be checked, as well as the visual condition of the external cables.

Network Rail is hoping that electronic monitoring can pick up problems before the equipment fails completely. Unfortunately in the real world, this does not work as well in practice compared to the theory.

 

[Fokx]

To be fair if an employer puts a statement out to the media which condemns their employees that's a strong statement to me that their relationship has permanently broken down. What do you expect in that situation?

Nail on the head

 

[Carlisle]

Good memory!
Yes my current job on the railway offers the best conditions for any job I’ve personally had so far, but at the same time the said conditions are planned to be cut.
I’m being almost weaponised/villainised by both the government and right wing media, and the general attitude in the work place is extremely sour. There’s been a complete breakdown in employee satisfaction and relations. I have never worked in a company where the atmosphere is that not a single person cares, and the trickles from the top down throughout all areas of the business. We didn’t even get a ‘happy Christmas’ email this year from the MD, let alone the usual small gift, or even a card. However, we’ve have had several about unsolicited offers from investment companies wanting to buy the owning group

It’s not all sunshine and roses sadly!

Indeed, sorry to hear that, my workplace has a very similar atmosphere, I just hope there are some half decent leaders out there somewhere that can begin to turn things around pretty soon

 

[Sputnik89]

Your talking dramatic bunkum,
The worst he’s suggesting is that it may be a coordinated campaign of refusal to work rest days .

Read his tweet again.

He says it is unacceptable that drivers are not volunteering to work on their rest days. What possible other interpretation is there except for that he thinks workers should be able to be compelled to do so? Ignore all the nonsense about "unofficial strikes", which is a silly diversion.

Admittedly, it is Grant Shapps so he has probably not actually thought this through...

 

[Russel]

Are there any strikes taking place on Saturday 3rd and Saturday 10th September?

 

[dk1]

Are there any strikes taking place on Saturday 3rd and Saturday 10th September?

Not yet. You’ll need to wait a bit longer for any news on those dates.

 

[the sniper]

You have to hand it to Shapps in a way- he says the quiet parts out loud.

He wants employers to be able to force employees to work on their days off, at the employers sole decision. A politer form of slavery.

Quite something to come back to today, the day my first ban after using this forum for 15 years expired...

No matter how much some people here may agree with his sentiment, his comments will be completely incendiary when dropped into messrooms around the country. For anybody who actually cares about this dispute reaching any kind of sensible resolution, this was a disaster.

Not only the clear lie, but "Archaic rules from 1919 mean working on rest days is voluntary" is a staggering sentiment, even for this lot.

Funny to think they wanted to prevent staff working RDs, just a short while ago...

We must speak to different people.

Unfortunately this has become clear in recent weeks, which has disappointed me more than you may imagine.

 

[theageofthetra]

Are Croydon tramlink services affected by any of the upcoming strikes this month. Unsure which unions their staff fall under.

Thx

 

[southerner2174]

Next he will be asking for the 'hidden' rules to be overwritten