Avanti West Coast cancellations

[irish_rail]

Best on the west I think.

The north west perhaps.

 

[dk1]

The north west perhaps.

No I’d say the whole route. Great variety.

 

[Class 466]

such as the RMT dispute with Scotrail which eradicated Sunday trains for months ?

They were actual strikes in 2021 rather than RDW bans on sundays if i remember correctly as they only operated services with managers etc.

 

[91108]

Whilst I spent most of my working career in jobs which didn't pay overtime, and there was an understanding that working over weekends (for example) would occasionally be required, as long as it was done in the context of "give and take", was the exception rather than the rule, and would generally be planned in advance I didn't have a problem with this.
When I was asked to travel to the USA on a Saturday and attend meetings on the Sunday I drew the line and refused to do so, I was OK with travelling on a Saturday and going to meetings on the Monday.
As long as we were all focussed on a common goal, and that we were all motivated to work towards that goal, that wasn't unacceptable. I can't imagine I'd have coped well with being "ordered" to work on my day off but I ensured that it never came to that. I felt it was important to push back against silly people who tried to push too far, and found that in general they didn't resent my doing so, and some of my colleagues were grateful to me for doing so.

EDIT I should add that, by the time these Sunday requests came in, my employer had changed from paying for Business Class travel for many years. Travel as cheaply as possible and be prepared to work the following day. I don't think so!

The thing is as a train driver you are probably already working 2 out of 3 weekends anyway with virtually no chance of an annual leave day being granted. Therefore, you may feel less inclined to work as overtime, the one you actually are not compelled to work.

 

[dk1]

The thing is as a train driver you are probably already working 2 out of 3 weekends anyway with virtually no chance of an annual leave day being granted. Therefore, you may feel less inclined to work as overtime, the one you actually are not compelled to work.

There is often a first come first served guaranteed ad-hoc leave days granted agreement. At my depot it’s the first 4 applications in the leave book regardless of whether your turn can be covered or not. Anything after that is reliant on cover being available. Should there be no RDW agreement in place even the guaranteed 4 go out the window.

 

[Dr Hoo]

And cheadle hulme - kidsgrove for political reasons

Can you explain this comment, please?

As an ex operator, it is surely just the diversionary route if Crewe is closed - e.g. lineside fire, unsafe station roof or whatever. Obviously it means going via Manchester as well.

 

[Starmill]

Can you explain this comment, please?

As an ex operator, it is surely just the diversionary route if Crewe is closed - e.g. lineside fire, unsafe station roof or whatever. Obviously it means going via Manchester as well.

I guess it means that they can't work Manchester to London services except for the one that goes via Crewe. I wonder what the politics aspect is though!

 

[Iskra]

I guess it means that they can't work Manchester to London services except for the one that goes via Crewe. I wonder what the politics aspect is though!

If one depot signs too much, the other ones aren't as necessary are they... ...so it probably virtually guarantees another depots continued existence.

 

[Some guy]

If one depot signs too much, the other ones aren't as necessary are they... ...so it probably virtually guarantees another depots continued existence.

It helps cover for Manchester depot if they have staff shortages. Let’s not forget they run a service every 20 minutes so would need a different depot(Preston) to run services out of Manchester. Just like Manchester drivers work to Preston

 

[Efini92]

Can you explain this comment, please?

As an ex operator, it is surely just the diversionary route if Crewe is closed - e.g. lineside fire, unsafe station roof or whatever. Obviously it means going via Manchester as well.

Preston men don’t sign between cheadle hulme and kidsgrove because Piccadilly won’t allow it.

 

[Gemz91]

There is often a first come first served guaranteed ad-hoc leave days granted agreement. At my depot it’s the first 4 applications in the leave book regardless of whether your turn can be covered or not. Anything after that is reliant on cover being available. Should there be no RDW agreement in place even the guaranteed 4 go out the window.

Similar at my depot, how ever, if you don't book the Saturdays off twelve months in advance there's very little chance you'll get them. If a friend invites you to a wedding with 3 months notice, especially in summer, there's no way you're going to the wedding unless you can find someone to swap jobs with you.

 

[Failed Unit]

Similar at my depot, how ever, if you don't book the Saturdays off twelve months in advance there's very little chance you'll get them. If a friend invites you to a wedding with 3 months notice, especially in summer, there's no way you're going to the wedding unless you can find someone to swap jobs with you.

How likely is that? I have a mate that works as a guard. He manages to be able to swap so he can work earlier whenever he wants. But not sure if early is the shift noone wants.

 

[muz379]

Grant Shapps was saying at the start of this dispute that he was going to look at stopping staff working overtime to make up lost earnings from strikes . Yet now that seems to be happening he is bleating on about staff being out of order .

The shortage of traincrew and sunday working issues that he is banging on about could have been addressed the multiple times the franchises were re let , he was secretary of state when the latest avanti one was awarded for instance .

At most of the places I've worked having to come in on your day off if the needs of the business requires it was expected and a normal part of the job.

If one week we all refused and this happened to coincide with industrial action in another part of the business it might well have been classed as an illegal sympathy strike. At the very least I would look at who frequently does overtime and if they've suddenly stopped it might be time for a documented discussion with HR...

Ive never had a contract that compells me to come in on a day off and I wouldn't do a job that could do that either tbh , I have had one that compelled a "reasonable" amount of on the day overtime , although it didn't happen that often it did on a small number of occasions result in 15 hour days .I left for slightly less pay but better working conditions

Now I have conditions which mean I work to my day and am not compelled to work any overtime . If asked nicely on the day I will do up to an hour to help out assuming I have not got any post work committments .

How likely is that? I have a mate that works as a guard. He manages to be able to swap so he can work earlier whenever he wants. But not sure if early is the shift noone wants.

If people know you need it for something like a wedding and you generally get along well with most folk you will find someone prepared to swap . Generally people do swaps with folk they get along with and have done favours for each other in the past . I have never struggled to get a day off that I genuinely needed .

 

[uww11x]

No but it can be industrial action.

Not it isn't. It's called take your allocated day off.

 

[dk1]

Similar at my depot, how ever, if you don't book the Saturdays off twelve months in advance there's very little chance you'll get them. If a friend invites you to a wedding with 3 months notice, especially in summer, there's no way you're going to the wedding unless you can find someone to swap jobs with you.

I find that now & again the day is saved by engineering works at weekends & you are suddenly astounded to get the day of after putting your name in the book the week before. Again out duty managers bust a gut to keep us all a happy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm supposed to be going to Chester in September, but this thing and the national strikes are putting me off. What do you think?

From London? LNR to Crewe then TfW. Split tickets and it's loads cheaper too.

 

[Kite159]

From London? LNR to Crewe then TfW. Split tickets and it's loads cheaper too.

Or even using a CH & TFW ONLY ticket. Chiltern from Marylebone to Birmingham for TfW to Chester, changing if required at Shrewsbury.

Although that will probably take longer than LNR then TfW

The only 'awkward' stations to reach from London without using Avanti services is Warrington -> Carlisle as that requires a detour via Manchester [or Chester for Warrington]

 

[Dave91131]

I'm supposed to be going to Chester in September, but this thing and the national strikes are putting me off. What do you think?

If you have a car, take it.

 

[Bungle73]

If you have a car, take it.

I don't. I guess I'm not going then. I was a looking forward to it. I know a very nice pub in Chester.

 

[Merseysider]

I guess I'm not going then.

Not if you book with Avanti, you’re not

Check out trainsplit when you buy tickets, there’s an option to exclude Avanti services from the search.

and unfortunately this will have to be my advice to any new members who join up asking for help booking journeys!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't. I guess I'm not going then. I was a looking forward to it. I know a very nice pub in Chester.

Nothing wrong with going on LNR. It isn't much slower and in my view 350s are more comfortable than Pendolinos.

 

[craigybagel]

Preston signs everything except Shrewsbury, Chester to Holyhead and Liverpool. It’s a very unique depot

With the caveat that there are certain routes only worked by certain links at Preston. I don't believe there are any drivers that sign everything.

Best on the west I think.

For now. There has been suggestions that the new depot at Crewe will mostly be taking on Preston work, so they may lose some of their route card.

 

[Bungle73]

Nothing wrong with going on LNR. It isn't much slower and in my view 350s are more comfortable than Pendolinos.

Not if you book with Avanti, you’re not

Check out trainsplit when you buy tickets, there’s an option to exclude Avanti services from the search.

and unfortunately this will have to be my advice to any new members who join up asking for help booking journeys!

It means changing at Crewe though, and my research told me that the Crewe-Chester services are rammed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It means changing at Crewe though, and my research told me that the Crewe-Chester services are rammed.

Can be busy but not always "rammed". It's only a short section anyway.

 

[Merseysider]

It means changing at Crewe though, and my research told me that the Crewe-Chester services are rammed.

For the trains which start at Crewe you’ll be fine getting a seat most hours of the day unless you board at the last minute. It’s only 20 minutes in any case.

 

[Bungle73]

Can be busy but not always "rammed". It's only a short section anyway.

For the trains which start at Crewe you’ll be fine getting a seat most hours of the day unless you board at the last minute. It’s only 20 minutes in any case.

And the return? I was thinking of returning around 4pm (on a Friday). I'll have a medium sized suitcase with me though. It sounds like too much bother tbh.

 

[Wolfie]

At most of the places I've worked having to come in on your day off if the needs of the business requires it was expected and a normal part of the job.

If one week we all refused and this happened to coincide with industrial action in another part of the business it might well have been classed as an illegal sympathy strike. At the very least I would look at who frequently does overtime and if they've suddenly stopped it might be time for a documented discussion with HR...

I'm not exactly a great fan of the railway unions. However no one should ever be expected to work days off, particularly when they are working in a safety critical role.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2022 ==

Whilst I spent most of my working career in jobs which didn't pay overtime, and there was an understanding that working over weekends (for example) would occasionally be required, as long as it was done in the context of "give and take", was the exception rather than the rule, and would generally be planned in advance I didn't have a problem with this.
When I was asked to travel to the USA on a Saturday and attend meetings on the Sunday I drew the line and refused to do so, I was OK with travelling on a Saturday and going to meetings on the Monday.
As long as we were all focussed on a common goal, and that we were all motivated to work towards that goal, that wasn't unacceptable. I can't imagine I'd have coped well with being "ordered" to work on my day off but I ensured that it never came to that. I felt it was important to push back against silly people who tried to push too far, and found that in general they didn't resent my doing so, and some of my colleagues were grateful to me for doing so.

EDIT I should add that, by the time these Sunday requests came in, my employer had changed from paying for Business Class travel for many years. Travel as cheaply as possible and be prepared to work the following day. I don't think so!

Re your last para: Government by any chance? I know people who were among the world experts in their fields who refused to travel and left UK unrepresented in a major international meeting when management in one Department tried that stunt.....

 

[GordonT]

Have Avanti just called people refusing to work overtime "unofficial strike action", or is there something else going on here?

The former would appear to be a spectacularly bad thing to be doing.

Edit: the following has appeared on the front page of the Avanti website.

Presumably it's the "concerted" or "orchestrated" nature of the collective refusal to work overtime that distinguishes it in the employer's eyes from run of the mill declining of overtime by the normal proportion of individual drivers who would be expected in the normal way of things so to do? If you Google "overtime ban" without specific reference to the rail context it will generally categorise this as being a form of industrial action which has been recognised as such for decades. I agree however that it is needlessly inflammatory by the employer to portray the current situation in the way that they have regardless of the semantics of industrial relations terminology.

 

[357]

I've worked on the railway since I was 18, and every summer people don't want to work overtime, want to take annual leave, and there are staff shortages. Every. Single. Year.

It's reality, and not once have I ever seen it being referred to as "unofficial industrial action" until yesterday.

I am sure a few people who applied for the qualified driver vacancies will now be having second thoughts. I'm glad I never applied

 

[jfollows]

Re your last para: Government by any chance? I know people who were among the world experts in their fields who refused to travel and left UK unrepresented in a major international meeting when management in one Department tried that stunt.....

My first employer (1984-2008) had already gone down the cheap route, from automatically being able to fly Business Class to the USA in 1988 to cheapest possible travel out Sunday go to work Monday kind of stuff by the time I left in 2008, but it was indeed UK government/civil service in the second case - attend a conference starting on the Monday so plan travel out on the Saturday and then - oh yes - how about some meetings on the Sunday now you're going to be there by then? Surprise registered when I said something like "no chance, if that's what you thought then I would have travelled out on Friday instead". On one occasion my manager went to the proposed meeting in my place, I told him that was his choice not mine, I was going to sit by the pool or whatever .... needless to say it's not an approach that everyone can take.
But, back to Avanti, I have no problem with trains not being operated if it's because of people not working on their booked rest days etc. It's clear from discussions here that a failure to grasp this issue by the employers for many years has led to this, but I don't primarily hold the employees to blame for this. As in my case in the past, people are entitled to stick to their conditions of employment. I certainly would be very wary of describing it as "unofficial industrial action" unless I were absolutely sure of facts supporting that allegation.

EDIT Today I'm told "There is no disruption reported at this time affecting services between Wilmslow and London Euston." which is interesting given that 1R08 06:11 to Euston and 1R17 06:59 to Euston are both cancelled this morning, two cancellations of many today I suspect. 1H60 06:11 Crewe-Manchester which goes on (not) to work something Manchester-Euston also cancelled; 1H50 07:10 Crewe-Manchester not showing as cancelled yet, but given that its ECS 5K10 from Longsight is showing as cancelled that's probably only a matter of time (5K05 Longsight-Crewe seems to be operating normally to be the ECS for this; 5K10 would have formed 1F10 07:28 Crewe-Liverpool which was booked to run in the path of 1F10 05:27 Euston-Liverpool).