Shops & other venues that still insist on masks.

[Philip]

I remember visiting the Sainsbury's at Preston and being surprised at how few people were wearing masks compared to York, so I don't believe you that many people in the North West region were choosing to voluntarily wear masks.

So you keep saying; I refer you to the replies above.

I never mentioned Preston or Sainsbury's specifically, you're just taking one snapshot which isn't necessarily indicative of the situation elsewhere - you've said yourself that many more people were wearing them in York. From my own non-detailed observations, a small number of people started wearing masks on trains or stations in late February 2020 and this gradually increased until the rule in June.

Again with shops it seemed to be a gradual increase from early Spring until the government announced in early July that they would be made mandatory from late July. People can and did make up their own minds - it wasn't just following government orders.

 

[yorkie]

I never mentioned Preston or Sainsbury's specifically, you're just taking one snapshot which isn't necessarily indicative of the situation elsewhere ...

I think you are the one whose experience is not indicative of the situation in the vast majority of places.

I refer you to posts above; the experiences of myself and others, is that the vast majority were unmasked. I do a lot of travelling and so my experiences covered all sorts of places and others had similar experiences.

- you've said yourself that many more people were wearing them in York.

Compared to towns I visited in the North West such as Preston, Wigan etc, yes. But they still weren't wearing them until masks were required, apart from a very small proportion of places.

From my own non-detailed observations, people started wearing masks on trains or stations in late February 2020 and this gradually increased until the rule in June.

Hardly anyone was doing so at that time; your experiences are atypical.

Again with shops it seemed to be a gradual increase from early Spring until the government announced in early July that they would be made mandatory from late July. People can and did make up their own minds - it wasn't just following government orders.

Very few people chose to do this before it was mandated.

 

[Philip]

I do a lot of travelling

Hardly anyone was doing so at that time; your experiences are atypical.

So do I; so I could argue that your own experiences are atypical.

I think the main conclusion behind this argument though is that we need to move away from this notion that people only went along with things such as face coverings because of coercion or being forced - it isn't as simple as that for the reasons I've mentioned. If you want to rant about genuine authoritarianism and coercision forcing the public into doing something without any altruistic reasons then go and live in China!

 

[GC class B1]

So do I; so I could argue that your own experiences are atypical.

I think the main conclusion behind this argument though is that we need to move away from this notion that people only went along with things such as face coverings because of coercion or being forced - it isn't as simple as that for the reasons I've mentioned. If you want to rant about genuine authoritarianism and coercision forcing the public into doing something without any altruistic reasons then go and live in China!

But forcing people in this country to do something without any good reason is precisely what the government and scientists did.

 

[Philip]

But forcing people in this country to do something without any good reason is precisely what the government and scientists did.

And like I say you can't be completely sure that there wasn't good reason. The government and scientists probably thought like this; I've no doubt they were skeptical about how effective masks would be but they probably went along with the WHO advice in the hope/half expectation that masks would offer partial protection. Don't forget it was a new virus so they were in the dark a bit about how the transmission of the virus would work and subsequently how effective or not face masks would be.

 

[trebor79]

Exactly and the same goes for the opposite argument, that face coverings had absolutely no effect. That's why I said people played the percentages when it came to wearing them. This country is not a dictatorship or an authoritarian state, so claims of most people only wearing them because they were coerced into it are questionable to say the least.

I only wore one because I was coerced by law, until I just decided to exempt myself. I had a couple of people try to coerce me after that but gave them short shrift.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Nope, my own observations whether or not you like it. Obviously the number increased hugely by the time they were mandated, but quite a few were already wearing them in shops before it became law.

Ha ha ha ha ha, you are living in a fantasy land

 

[Philip]

Ha ha ha ha ha, you are living in a fantasy land

No, simply the case that my experiences/observations were different to yours.

 

[DelayRepay]

From my own non-detailed observations, a small number of people started wearing masks on trains or stations in late February 2020 and this gradually increased until the rule in June.

Around here, you saw the odd person wearing a mask from February 2020 but they were few and far between and really stood out.

I agree that usage did gradually increase, but it increased from nobody to very few until the government mandated them.

 

[DustyBin]

I never mentioned Preston or Sainsbury's specifically, you're just taking one snapshot which isn't necessarily indicative of the situation elsewhere - you've said yourself that many more people were wearing them in York. From my own non-detailed observations, a small number of people started wearing masks on trains or stations in late February 2020 and this gradually increased until the rule in June.

Again with shops it seemed to be a gradual increase from early Spring until the government announced in early July that they would be made mandatory from late July. People can and did make up their own minds - it wasn't just following government orders.

They were actually acting against the advice at that point, which as you may recall was to not wear a mask. Mask mandates were (and are) a completely unscientific charade.

 

[MikeWM]

They were actually acting against the advice at that point, which as you may recall was to not wear a mask. Mask mandates were (and are) a completely unscientific charade.

Of course I agree entirely with the latter point, but on the former things did move around a bit after the advice in March/early April that they were useless, by early May 2020 'The Science' had started to come into play and they became 'recommended', eg. see

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/will-you-follow-the-advice-on-face-coverings.204274/

Re-reading that thread is fairly useful for the current discussion, as it offers quite a bit of anecdotal evidence about the level of mask wearing before it was mandated.

 

[Philip]

Don't forget that in some Asian countries it has been normal custom for many years for someone who is feeling under the weather to wear a mask when, for example, travelling on public transport. I'm not saying this is indicative of masks being medically effective, but it shows that people can decide for themselves about the subject without being forced to by law - as it isn't a law in Japan or Malaysia to wear a mask when ill, people do it to protect others and to an extent out of a sense of courtesy and duty. Is it not just possible that some people here have been thinking along the same lines, rather than just doing it because of government coercion?

 

[Eyersey468]

Don't forget that in some Asian countries it has been normal custom for many years for someone who is feeling under the weather to wear a mask when, for example, travelling on public transport. I'm not saying this is indicative of masks being medically effective, but it shows that people can decide for themselves about the subject without being forced to by law - as it isn't a law in Japan or Malaysia to wear a mask when ill, people do it to protect others and to an extent out of a sense of courtesy and duty. Is it not just possible that some people here have been thinking along the same lines, rather than just doing it because of government coercion?

I agree some people may have been thinking that but the majority wore them because the government told them to

 

[MikeWM]

Don't forget that in some Asian countries it has been normal custom for many years for someone who is feeling under the weather to wear a mask when, for example, travelling on public transport. I'm not saying this is indicative of masks being medically effective, but it shows that people can decide for themselves about the subject without being forced to by law - as it isn't a law in Japan or Malaysia to wear a mask when ill, people do it to protect others and to an extent out of a sense of courtesy and duty. Is it not just possible that some people here have been thinking along the same lines, rather than just doing it because of government coercion?

Clearly some people are indeed doing it because they are choosing to do so, rather than being forced to do so.

But where do we think the idea that it 'protects others' and that it is a matter of 'courtesy and duty' come from? Basically no-one in this country thought that way before 2020, so what has motivated them to choose to do so now?

I'd also point out, for the zillionth time, that 'catch it, bin it, kill it' is a significantly better public health strategy than 'catch it, and strap it tightly to your face for the next two hours'. Look up the 'Foegen effect' for one consequence - where you end up more ill if you breathe back in the expelled virus and it gets deeper into your lungs than before.

And that is before the many other medical issues with people wearing masks, some of which I set out in this post a few weeks back. And then there are the social implications to deal with.

 

[Philip]

Clearly some people are indeed doing it because they are choosing to do so, rather than being forced to do so.

But where do we think the idea that it 'protects others' and that it is a matter of 'courtesy and duty' come from? Basically no-one in this country thought that way before 2020, so what has motivated them to choose to do so now?

I'd also point out, for the zillionth time, that 'catch it, bin it, kill it' is a significantly better public health strategy than 'catch it, and strap it tightly to your face for the next two hours'. Look up the 'Foegen effect' for one consequence - where you end up more ill if you breathe back in the expelled virus and it gets deeper into your lungs than before.

And that is before the many other medical issues with people wearing masks, some of which I set out in this post a few weeks back. And then there are the social implications to deal with.

As stated in my previous post they did this for many years before the pandemic in places like Japan and Malaysia, so it's not a completely novel concept. I reckon quite a lot of people here who started wearing them before they were mandated were thinking about what people have done in the far east for many years, so they started doing it themselves.

 

[Dent]

Don't forget that in some Asian countries it has been normal custom for many years for someone who is feeling under the weather to wear a mask when, for example, travelling on public transport. I'm not saying this is indicative of masks being medically effective, but it shows that people can decide for themselves about the subject without being forced to by law - as it isn't a law in Japan or Malaysia to wear a mask when ill, people do it to protect others and to an extent out of a sense of courtesy and duty. Is it not just possible that some people here have been thinking along the same lines, rather than just doing it because of government coercion?

I suspect many who wore masks even when not required did so because they were misled by government propaganda into believing that there was a benefit. Being misled is a form of coercion.

 

[MikeWM]

As stated in my previous post they did this for many years before the pandemic in places like Japan and Malaysia, so it's not a completely novel concept. I reckon quite a lot of people here who started wearing them before they were mandated were thinking about what people have done in the far east for many years, so they started doing it themselves.

People do all manner of things in the far east that aren't part of our culture. Why do you think we've picked up on this specific thing rather than others?

I suspect many who wore masks even when not required did so because they were misled by government propaganda into believing that there was a benefit. Being misled is a form of coercion.

...and that's the answer. As you say, coercion isn't just a legal thing. The entire purpose of the 'nudge' unit in the government is to coerce us into changing behaviour without actually passing laws.

 

[Philip]

I suspect many who wore masks even when not required did so because they were misled by government propaganda into believing that there was a benefit. Being misled is a form of coercion.

This is what I don't agree with, that it always seems to come back to coercion instead of people thinking and deciding for themselves for altruistic reasons.

People do all manner of things in the far east that aren't part of our culture. Why do you think we've picked up on this specific thing rather than others?

It was picked up on because the pandemic was starting and there was a lot of uncertainty and fear, so people were looking for ways to protect themselves and/or others.

 

[VauxhallandI]

No, simply the case that my experiences/observations were different to yours.

No mine are based on living and working in a City and suburban area of 10 million people and yours obviously isn’t it, that’s the difference

 

[Dent]

This is what I don't agree with, that it always seems to come back to coercion instead of people thinking and deciding for themselves for altruistic reasons.

Are those "altruistic reasons" a misguided belief that there is a benefit, as a result of coercion by misdirection? If not then what exactly are they?

 

[MikeWM]

This is what I don't agree with, that it always seems to come back to coercion instead of people thinking and deciding for themselves for altruistic reasons.

But where did the idea that it was altruistic come from? Prior to 2020 no-one thought PPE was to protect others, it was all about protecting yourself [1]. Where did the idea of 'masks protect others but not you' come from?

([1] With the potential exception of operating theatres, but there appears to be a lot of misconception as to the purpose of PPE in operating theatres, and even if there wasn't, trying to extrapolate from highly-trained professionals in a specific controlled environment, to the general public on a train or in a shop is ludicrous).

It was picked up on because the pandemic was starting and there was a lot of uncertainty and fear, so people were looking for ways to protect themselves and/or others.

Much of that fear was of course created by the government itself. Remember the SAGE quote from March 2020?

The perceived level of personal threat needs to be increased among those who are complacent, using hard-hitting emotional messaging. To be effective this must also empower people by making clear the actions they can take to reduce the threat.

(https://evidencenotfear.com/how-sage-and-uk-media-created-fear-in-the-british-public/)

or the adverts from April 2020? 'Anyone can get it, and anyone can spread it'? 'Life-threatening for people of all ages, everywhere in the UK'?

 

[Eyersey468]

This is what I don't agree with, that it always seems to come back to coercion instead of people thinking and deciding for themselves for altruistic reasons.


It was picked up on because the pandemic was starting and there was a lot of uncertainty and fear, so people were looking for ways to protect themselves and/or others.

The problem was the messaging from the government and the media was appalling is it any wonder a lot of people feel they were coerced

 

[DustyBin]

This is what I don't agree with, that it always seems to come back to coercion instead of people thinking and deciding for themselves for altruistic reasons.

In the overwhelming majority of cases it was due to coercion though. There will always be outliers of course, but that’s exactly what they are.

 

[duncanp]

I went to the GP surgery today for a medication review.

The receptionist insisted I wear a face nappy, even though I didn't have to wear one last time I went there a month or so ago.

She then had trouble hearing what I was saying, and she said I needed to come closer and speak more clearly.

But....

...guess whether the receptionist was wearing a face nappy....

 

[Bikeman78]

They were actually acting against the advice at that point, which as you may recall was to not wear a mask. Mask mandates were (and are) a completely unscientific charade.

My recollection is that they were mandated as society opened up again, mainly to reassure people. I'd have thought it would actually have the opposite effect on some people. Somehow we managed without them throughout the first wave, despite around 50% of the working population still going out to work and almost everyone going to shops for groceries etc.

 

[bramling]

My recollection is that they were mandated as society opened up again, mainly to reassure people. I'd have thought it would actually have the opposite effect on some people. Somehow we managed without them throughout the first wave, despite around 50% of the working population still going out to work and almost everyone going to shops for groceries etc.

Looking at things from a cynical perspective, masks seemed to become a thing at the same point as the “travel with confidence” messaging, as I recall. At that time the government had embarked on a half-arsed “back to the office” push. It’s indeed a great shame they soon lost their nerve on this.

I suspect all it did was put off a proportion of those people who were still using rail at that point. I soon gravitated to the car, didn’t renew my season after I found I simply wasn’t using it often enough to justify it, and I’m still using the car to this day.

 

[Bikeman78]

Much of that fear was of course created by the government itself. Remember the SAGE quote from March 2020?

(https://evidencenotfear.com/how-sage-and-uk-media-created-fear-in-the-british-public/)

or the adverts from April 2020? 'Anyone can get it, and anyone can spread it'? 'Life-threatening for people of all ages, everywhere in the UK'?

Looking back it was completely bonkers. Imagine if they tried to cause the same fear about other common causes of death.

 

[Eyersey468]

Looking back it was completely bonkers. Imagine if they tried to cause the same fear about other common causes of death.

I agree it was bonkers, don't put ideas in their head though, I wouldn't put it past them to try to cause fear about other causes of death

 

[DustyBin]

My recollection is that they were mandated as society opened up again, mainly to reassure people. I'd have thought it would actually have the opposite effect on some people. Somehow we managed without them throughout the first wave, despite around 50% of the working population still going out to work and almost everyone going to shops for groceries etc.

Yes I think that's correct. There was certainly a point at which a small number of people were wearing masks against WHO advice, although as @MikeWM has pointed out there was a point at which they were "recommended" as The Science TM "changed".

 

[Bikeman78]

I agree it was bonkers, don't put ideas in their head though, I wouldn't put it past them to try to cause fear about other causes of death

I could never get my head around it, even in March 2020. Maybe my brain is wired up back to front. It was as if we forgot that all other causes of death existed. It was very refreshing in summer 2020 to see people in Liverpool piling on to buses and trains exactly as they did in 2019.